223 réponses à ce sujet

[Perkocet13]

what about the first borderlands? all that work, all that fighting to get to the vault, and even fight a really big monster thing, just to find out that there is nothing in the vault or it wont open yet. so in the end all that work for nothing. still a great game though, just the ending was dissapointing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In case you missed the last decade or so by Bioware, Bioware RPGs have consistently been the lower picture.

You mean in the end you always ended up with bad endings? ^^

Subjective. You did end with endings that followed nearly the same routes and mechanics, with variations only kicking in the post-game.

Besides, choices in DA:O greatly affect the endings,

Common mistake.

The choices in DA:O greatly affecting the post-ending: namely, the epilogue slides and everything after the ArchDemon's defeat in battle. In other words, things changed after you stopped playing, which is hardly the standard an RPG should cling to.

Before you stopped playing, DA:O was as guilty of linearity as any other Bioware product. Each recruitment arc was parallel to eachother, and so had no effect on eachother or the Landsmeet. The Landsmeet had a fair deal of intricacy, but little changed based on anything before the Landsmeet arc, and little changed after the Landsmeet arc: at most you swapped one companion for another, and in the finale all that changed was the summonable units that you could call in as reinforcements.


The primary difference between DA:O's lack of in-game variance and Mass Effect's was that DA:O gave you epilogue slides, while Mass Effect and other RPGs give you the opportunities to imagine your own..

[Elvis_Mazur]

They don't. The rest of the game is preserved. However, would you play a game where you know beforehand that the ending sucks? I certainly can't play around 95% of the game and not play the rest.

[xtorma]

I think its not so much about it being a bad game , as it is about it being an unfulfilling game.

[RogueWarrior626]

At least in DAO there was a happy ending option if you played it right. Boy gets girl , or visa-versa. The option was there. Maybe Devs just got lazy.

[the_one_54321]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

RPG:

ME3 endings:

I could not possibly agree more.

And I cannot  freaking believe that it took so many people until the very end of the series to figure this out.

The whole of the ME franchise has lived up to exactly this, with very little significant variation. And like 90% of that little existing variation existed only in which crew member you choose to bunk with.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 05 mars 2012 - 02:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The same applied to Jade Empire, Dragon Age Origins and Awakening and DA2, even Mask of the Betrayer and KOTOR.

Bioware, to my knowledge, has never created a story that varies as much as Fallout: Vegas. And even that only diverged in the late-midgame story missions.

[the_one_54321]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The same applied to Jade Empire, Dragon Age Origins and Awakening and DA2, even Mask of the Betrayer and KOTOR.

Bioware, to my knowledge, has never created a story that varies as much as Fallout: Vegas. And even that only diverged in the late-midgame story missions.

Most games will fit some variation of that description. The ME franchise has just consistently fit it better than most.

But seriously, I am honestly surprised that so many folks are so upset and only discovered this just now.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Mask of the Betrayer

Obsidian. Not Bioware.

Also, if you take into account the various endings available that include possible character futures, Mask of the Betrayer tended towards far more endings than Bioware have done in their games.

However your point still stands. Bioware endings have never been varied. But there have been choices involved to change almost every aspect of *how* the game ends, even if the final result is the same. Mass Effect 3 has stripped away one of the most important variables, however, which is Character Fate.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 05 mars 2012 - 02:56 .

[N7Gold]

Apophis2412 wrote...

 Two guestions to all the people who dodn't like the endings:

1. The endings might be bad but how does that make the whole gamebad and/or pointless?

2. Dragon Age Origins had bad endings, yet is considered a good game. What's the main difference between the DAO and Me3 Endings?

I have DAO on my PS3 and the strategy guide book. I'm halfway through the game and I learned there is a way you can kill the archdemon without sacrificing yourself or a fellow grey warden. That should say something about ME3, so I'm hopeful.

[Alikain]

You can not compare DAO with ME3 because DAO is the beginning and you had multiple different endings, with several different permutations of what happens to the character and his/her companions. but with ME3 it the end of trilogy that means all the choices and decisions should really matter. the choices given at the end does not make any kind of sense no matter which one you choose because for on it doesn't bring closure to the trilogy only more questions.

[Hexxys]

RunAwayItzJack wrote...

There's no payoff for your time, money, and emotional investments.

Pretty much this.  This ending just deviates too far out of what made Mass Effect popular in the first place.

[N7Gold]

Alikain wrote...

You can not compare DAO with ME3 because DAO is the beginning and you had multiple different endings, with several different permutations of what happens to the character and his/her companions. but with ME3 it the end of trilogy that means all the choices and decisions should really matter. the choices given at the end does not make any kind of sense no matter which one you choose because for on it doesn't bring closure to the trilogy only more questions.

I compared it because the other guy said like ME3, DAO has mostly bad endings and I pointed out one decent ending among the bad where very few or no people die, and there's a possiblity ME3 will get the same treatment, it's just that the very good ending is possibly well hidden somehow. And about the choices in ME1 and ME2 being meaningless in ME3, I'll believe it when I play the game myself. I don't trust anyone's word here.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Mask of the Betrayer

Obsidian. Not Bioware.

Also, if you take into account the various endings available that include possible character futures, Mask of the Betrayer tended towards far more endings than Bioware have done in their games.

Here's something else to consider: even when 'endings' differ, be they from Final Choices or end-game scenarios, how often is it that you see a story significantly differ, in any form of RPG?

Only the shortest of RPG, or those with largely defined characters, truly offer major differentiation of plots... and 'major' is relative.

However your point still stands. Bioware endings have never been varied. But there have been choices involved to change almost every aspect of *how* the game ends, even if the final result is the same. Mass Effect 3 has stripped away one of the most important variables, however, which is Character Fate.

Quite the contrary: ME3 has one of the most open-ended endings in recent Bioware history. What happens for the characters afterwards is entirely up to the player. Character Fate hasn't been removed, it's been left undefined and up for player agency.

While many people enjoy having epilogue slides that define (and restrict) the outcomes for various characters, others do not. It's far from a universal position of the fandom.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 mars 2012 - 03:53 .

[nocbl2]

Because I feel like I wasted several hours just to lose and in the end get FUBARed.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Subjective. You did end with endings that followed nearly the same routes and mechanics, with variations only kicking in the post-game.

Not "subjective". It's not about the quality of the ending (sometimes people considers the "bad ending" of a game to be the better ending), it's about it's content. "Good ending" is the common name given to the ending where everything ends well for the main character. Mass effect 3 doesn't give the choice for it to happens.
Variations happening in post game still happens.
There's a huge difference between ending a story with "...and they lived happily ever after" and "the Dragon is dead".

Common mistake.
The choices in DA:O greatly affecting the post-ending: namely, the epilogue slides and everything after the ArchDemon's defeat in battle. In other words, things changed after you stopped playing, which is hardly the standard an RPG should cling to.
The primary difference between DA:O's lack of in-game variance and Mass Effect's was that DA:O gave you epilogue slides, while Mass Effect and other RPGs give you the opportunities to imagine your own..

Post game is not post ending. Besides you underestimate the importance of and ending, and doesn't undestand how it works. Ending just have to gives two things: the resolution of the plot, and implying what happens next.
Besides, you seems to miss the point with the ME3 endings complain: whatever the ending you choose, all implies that after the game ends Shepard is basically...err...f*cked? (sorry for the word, but I don't know what I can use instead).
But yes, you can if you want imagine that Ganondorf ressurect, kill Link and rape Zelda if that's what you want, but that will not be what the game implies in "The legend of Zelda".

Modifié par Kakita Tatsumaru, 05 mars 2012 - 03:58 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...


Not "subjective". It's not about the quality of the ending (sometimes people considers the "bad ending" of a game to be the better ending), it's about it's content. "Good ending" is the common name given to the ending where everything ends well for the main character. Mass effect 3 doesn't give the choice for it to happens.
Variations happening in post game still happens.
There's a huge difference between ending a story with "...and they lived happily ever after" and "the Dragon is dead".

Whether you consider the ending good or not, however, is an opinion. IE, subjective.

Believe it or not, not everyone hates it.

Post game is not post ending. Besides you underestimate the importance of and ending, and doesn't undestand how it works. Ending just have to gives two things: the resolution of the plot, and implying what happens next.

Actually, an ending has to do neither. Both are styles, not requirments. Multi-volume narratives (like, say, a trilogy) don't need to resolve the plot until the final installment, which should be obvious. Covering what's next doesn't come into the picture at all: plenty of classical works, from Romeo and Juliet to the original Star Wars trilogy, end their focus at the end of the direct story.


Of course, this is all tangent because Mass Effect 3 does both resolve the plots (the Reaper threat, the various racial subplots), and gives an implication of what happens next (the galaxy survives, and everyone will be reaching out to re-connect with eachother).

Besides, you seems to miss the point with the ME3 endings complain: whatever the ending you choose, all implies that after the game ends Shepard is basically...err...f*cked? (sorry for the word, but I don't know what I can use instead).

How about 'whatever you want to think happens next'?

The galaxy still has FTL, and there are a number of ways to justify Shepard not being ****ed. The insistence that Shepard is ****ed, much like the insistence that the Normandy crew is doomed to be lost forever, is one provided by the fans. The game is entirely open-ended about what could occur: unlike in the Legend of Zelda, where the banishment of the Great Evil is the resolution and reversing it is counter to the narrative, nothing in the narrative of the ending says 'and they died alone, maybe starving to death.'

Really, BSN has been a textbook example of what can happen with a first-opinion framing of something affecting everyone else's perspective. If the first writer had been optimistic about what could have happened, rather than pessimistic, far fewer people would have approached the game endings with an expectation for a negative ending.

[Dreogan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The same applied to Jade Empire, Dragon Age Origins and Awakening and DA2, even Mask of the Betrayer and KOTOR.

Bioware, to my knowledge, has never created a story that varies as much as Fallout: Vegas. And even that only diverged in the late-midgame story missions.

Hold on just a second. Dragon Age had fantastic variation in its ending possibilties.

Not only did you have two completely different scenarios (funeral or coronation) you were able to figure out where threads were heading between the majority of the A-grade characters and even some of the B-grade characters through the text-based outro.

This is nothing like the miserable hack-job seen in Mass Effect 2's visible/hidden actors cutscenes after the end of the suicide mission. Or the travesty that is essentially a paragraph-long ending with one sentence determined by your assets and another sentence determined by the only decision that has any sort of weight on the ending.

I don't want a happy ending. I want Bioware to get off its ass and actually end the Trilogy. The current endings are a miserable failure in terms of the scope one would expect from a trilogy that has prided/marketed player choice.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dreogan wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The same applied to Jade Empire, Dragon Age Origins and Awakening and DA2, even Mask of the Betrayer and KOTOR.

Bioware, to my knowledge, has never created a story that varies as much as Fallout: Vegas. And even that only diverged in the late-midgame story missions.

Hold on just a second. Dragon Age had fantastic variation in its ending possibilties.

Not only did you have two completely different scenarios (funeral or coronation) you were able to figure out where threads were heading between the majority of the A-grade characters and even some of the B-grade characters through the text-based outro.

This is nothing like the miserable hack-job seen in Mass Effect 2's visible/hidden actors cutscenes after the end of the suicide mission. Or the travesty that is essentially a paragraph-long ending with one sentence determined by your assets and another sentence determined by the only decision that has any sort of weight on the ending.

I don't want a happy ending. I want Bioware to get off its ass and actually end the Trilogy. The current endings are a miserable failure in terms of the scope one would expect from a trilogy that has prided/marketed player choice.

Saying that epilogue slides supplant an ending scenario is like saying coloring a photo makes a different subject. It is a superficial addition to content, not replacement of the underlying facts.

Dragon Age Origins had two, and only two, ending routes: the God Baby, and Sacrifice. And in terms of gameplay, the only difference between the two was that one meant you lost Morrigan as a companion. The end-game scenario of the finale, the plot progression, these didn't change until after the game was complete and the player put down the controller and stopped having involvement.


Epilogue slides are nice, but they don't change the plot structure or fundamental linearity of a game. They might be compared to a spice: pleasant, but non substantive. If a game can simply have slides added in to make it good, then your criteria is the superficiality, not the content... and since ME3 or DA2 or most games could add any number of slides, or leave the after effects for the player to create for themselves, the argument shifts from 'the games are fundamentally linear' to 'the games are linear but I want my post-game content expanded.'

[Dreogan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Epilogue slides are nice, but they don't change the plot structure or fundamental linearity of a game. They might be compared to a spice: pleasant, but non substantive. If a game can simply have slides added in to make it good, then your criteria is the superficiality, not the content... and since ME3 or DA2 or most games could add any number of slides, or leave the after effects for the player to create for themselves, the argument shifts from 'the games are fundamentally linear' to 'the games are linear but I want my post-game content expanded.'

I have no issue with linearity. I do have issue with the sheer amount of laziness in this trilogy's ending. I excuse Bioware for its terrible ending in Mass Effect 2, simply because the second in a series generally tends to have the weakest ending, but with the first game's ending absolutely destroying the third game's ending in terms of closure I don't really see where you're coming from.

I also don't buy the whole concept of "leaving it to the player to create themselves." This is not a high-level arthouse movie. It does not have some deep and meaningful message to impart. The ending is as it is simply because the developers didn't have the desire/resources to go out with a bang so it was left blank for us to "meditate" over. As such, nothing of value will come out of "meditating" on this shallow ending, just as you wouldn't get much of the meaning of life while "meditating" on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. 

Would slides go out with a bang? Not hardly. That is only one way they could have solved the issue of their lazy copy-paste endings. Do I want sunshine and gundrops in my ending? No, I'm not one of those people: I just want to see actual effort, or at least more than their pitiful copy/paste cutscenes have shown me.

If anything, yes, I'd want my post-game content expanded. If only to deepen the barely-substansive ending. For the entire freaking trilogy.

Modifié par Dreogan, 05 mars 2012 - 12:34 .

[chengthao]

it leaves a bad taste in your mouth . . . it makes you go . . . i wasted 2 complete games and an extra 30+ hours for this? seems like a total waste of time

kinda like the new Indiana Jones movie . . . it was ok for a good portion of the movie than the alien pop ups and you go "SERIOUSLY!!! A FREAKING ALIEN!!!"

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

chengthao wrote...

it leaves a bad taste in your mouth . . . it makes you go . . . i wasted 2 complete games and an extra 30+ hours for this? seems like a total waste of time

kinda like the new Indiana Jones movie . . . it was ok for a good portion of the movie than the alien pop ups and you go "SERIOUSLY!!! A FREAKING ALIEN!!!"

Still, Indy saved the day, married the eh... MILF and got his hat back, before they got us trolled that Shia would be the new Indy.

[eye basher]

Kemor wrote...

Why DA:O had a bad ending? I found it quite decent, gave me closure and that's all I need.
DA2 for example was a bad ending since it didn't give any closure whatsoever.

As long as ME3 ending gives me closure, that's fine with me, even if it's just via hand drawn vignettes or whatever.

Wanna know what the problem with ant series is it ain't trust is the FANS.

[chengthao]

Ghost Rider LSOV wrote...

chengthao wrote...

it leaves a bad taste in your mouth . . . it makes you go . . . i wasted 2 complete games and an extra 30+ hours for this? seems like a total waste of time

kinda like the new Indiana Jones movie . . . it was ok for a good portion of the movie than the alien pop ups and you go "SERIOUSLY!!! A FREAKING ALIEN!!!"

Still, Indy saved the day, married the eh... MILF and got his hat back, before they got us trolled that Shia would be the new Indy.

i lost interest after the alien