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Ze Technological Singluarity...


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#1
Kusy

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 Let's give a shot at quoting wikipedia on this... because I can't be bothered to look for a better source on it.

Wikipedia wrote...
 A technological singularity includes the concept of an intelligence explosion [...] 


[...] If superhuman intelligences were invented, either through the amplification of human intelligence or artificial intelligence [...] then it could design a yet more capable machine, or re-write its source code to become more intelligent.

...

Most proposed methods for creating superhuman or transhuman minds fall into one of two categories: intelligence amplification of human brains and artificial intelligence. The means speculated to produce intelligence augmentation are numerous, and include [...] direct brain-computer interfaces, and mind uploading.


The existence of multiple paths to an intelligence-explosion makes a singularity more likely; for a singularity to not occur they would all have to fail.


So basically... acording to the pre-existing deffinition of this phenomen, whoever created the Reapers already went past the events horizon of technological singularity, it already happened, and well... I guess they didn't notice?

And even if it didn't happen (but then it did). The synergy/merge means just that - intelligence explosion. Bam. Technological singularity.

This adds to the sad paradox of the reapers - they are preventing organic life from creating them. Oh the drama.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 03 mars 2012 - 07:52 .


#2
Bentebent

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It also adds to the sadness of the writers, who probably had no ****ing clue what the technological singularity actually is.

#3
Kusy

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Bentebent wrote...

It also adds to the sadness of the writers, who probably had no ****ing clue what the technological singularity actually is.


I wanted to approach the topic from a less developer hostile perspective, the game is not out yet, trust me, I will be the first to cast my just judgment on it's flaws one I get to play it... for now I think I'll stay neutral... but I see where you're coming from there.

#4
Eclipse_9990

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Mr.Kusy wrote...
This adds to the sad paradox of the reapers - they are preventing organic life from creating them. Oh the drama.


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#5
Kusy

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That's why this one is sad.

#6
Liara T

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I wanted to approach the topic from a less developer hostile perspective, the game is not out yet, trust me, I will be the first to cast my just judgment on it's flaws one I get to play it... for now I think I'll stay neutral... but I see where you're coming from there.


actually the game is out yet, there are a lot ppl plainng it right now on xbox 360. 

#7
Balek-Vriege

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Mr.Kusy wrote...

 Let's give a shot at quoting wikipedia on this... because I can't be bothered to look for a better source on it.

Wikipedia wrote...
 A technological singularity includes the concept of an intelligence explosion [...] 


[...] If superhuman intelligences were invented, either through the amplification of human intelligence or artificial intelligence [...] then it could design a yet more capable machine, or re-write its source code to become more intelligent.

...

Most proposed methods for creating superhuman or transhuman minds fall into one of two categories: intelligence amplification of human brains and artificial intelligence. The means speculated to produce intelligence augmentation are numerous, and include [...] direct brain-computer interfaces, and mind uploading.


The existence of multiple paths to an intelligence-explosion makes a singularity more likely; for a singularity to not occur they would all have to fail.


So basically... acording to the pre-existing deffinition of this phenomen, whoever created the Reapers already went past the events horizon of technological singularity, it already happened, and well... I guess they didn't notice?

And even if it didn't happen (but then it did). The synergy/merge means just that - intelligence explosion. Bam. Technological singularity.

This adds to the sad paradox of the reapers - they are preventing organic life from creating them. Oh the drama.


It seems though Reapers aren't endlessly rewriting themselves and aren't runaway intelligences.  They are definitely on the cusp of it though.  The race that created them either turned themselves into Reapers or ascended further because of it, then limited the Reapers to the confines of the Guardian programming.  Even the Guardian is programmed not to better itself.

I would say "they are preventing organic life from creating an uncontrolled version of them."
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#8
Kusy

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Then again, in Mass Effect 2 EDI says that each cycle they are making an improved one. Honestly, it all got a bit lost in itself.

#9
Aesieru

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I think it's more that the creators saw what was happening and to prevent it from going too far they created the Reapers (perhaps by becoming the Reapers) and then they destroyed everything that was wrong with their galaxy and set about to keep doing it.

#10
Kusy

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To me it sounds like the creators went full retard.

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This still holds - the synergy ending means you actually force the singularity by making every organic in the galaxy partially machine (with magic).

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 03 mars 2012 - 08:30 .


#11
StarcloudSWG

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Basically, yes. The writers went fully retarded on this one. The 'first' Reaper race hit the singularity and went beyond it, then they went "Oh, we have to stop before we reach singularity!" and promptly started the cycle of letting life build up until they could force the tech singularity on each race before they were ready, in the name of making sure none of them reached the tech singularity.

Did they think we wouldn't notice the inherent contradiction?

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 03 mars 2012 - 08:30 .


#12
Balek-Vriege

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

Basically, yes. The writers went fully retarded on this one. The 'first' Reaper race hit the singularity and went beyond it, then they went "Oh, we have to stop before we reach singularity!" and promptly started the cycle of letting life build up until they could force the tech singularity on each race before they were ready, in the name of making sure none of them reached the tech singularity.

Full pants-on-head retarded.


We don't know that they went beyond it. They could very well be inside one of those flying organic/mechanical ships destroying everything or are part of the Guardian consciousness.

#13
AkiKishi

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"Space Magic"

#14
Kusy

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Balek-Vriege wrote...
We don't know that they went beyond it. They could very well be inside one of those flying organic/mechanical ships destroying everything or are part of the Guardian consciousness.


Point one is idiotic.
Point two is still past the singularity as they are a super intelligence. Which is stated in the game. Repeatedly.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 03 mars 2012 - 08:35 .


#15
Kusy

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Double, sorry.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 03 mars 2012 - 08:35 .


#16
Balek-Vriege

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Mr.Kusy wrote...

To me it sounds like the creators went full retard.

This still holds - the synergy ending means you actually force the singularity by making every organic in the galaxy partially machine (with magic).


It depends if they have the ability or the will to rewite themselves to become smarter over and over.  The singularity is caused by having an explosion of ever improving genius aka runaway intelligence.  The Reapers have no evidence of this and I doubt the Guardian "improvements" will cause this.  Very complicated to think about imo.

Basically it would augment us to a point where we're a perfect balance of AI and organic with free will, to at least a point.  Our new way of thinking and built in knowledge of technological singularity would either keep us (hopefully) from ever needing AIs again or a need to rewrite ourselves to be smarter.  That's the plan anyways and there's probably a reason why this plan B (Synergy) wasn't chosen over plan B (Reapers).

I find it very interesting to talk about.  This is the type of scifi I like.  Almost beyond scifi to "uh oh" moments.
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Mr.Kusy wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...
We don't know that they went beyond it. They could very well be inside one of those flying organic/mechanical ships destroying everything or are part of the Guardian consciousness.


Point one is idiotic.
Point two is still past the singularity as they are a super intelligence. Which is stated in the game. Repeatedly.


Again, your missing what occurs if in fact something does hit a technological singularity.  It's obvious from the dialogue the Guardian, and the Reapers, are still limited by original programming.  You don't see the Reapers getting bigger and better over 37 million years.  They're just tools that are super intelligent and on the cusp of the singularity, but are limited to one mission via programming.  They don't rewrite themselves every nano second to be smarter to a point where they're intellectual gods that can control the universe at whim.  They're just superships/avatars that follow a genocidal code every 50K years.

Edit:
If they did hit technoligcal singularity I think after 37 million years they would have figured a way to improve their existence by figuring out how to merge multiverses or something by now.  Or something like that...
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Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 03 mars 2012 - 08:50 .


#17
themaxzero

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Balek-Vriege wrote...

Mr.Kusy wrote...

To me it sounds like the creators went full retard.

This still holds - the synergy ending means you actually force the singularity by making every organic in the galaxy partially machine (with magic).


It depends if they have the ability or the will to rewite themselves to become smarter over and over.  The singularity is caused by having an explosion of ever improving genius aka runaway intelligence.  The Reapers have no evidence of this and I doubt the Guardian "improvements" will cause this.  Very complicated to think about imo.

Basically it would augment us to a point where we're a perfect balance of AI and organic with free will, to at least a point.  Our new way of thinking and built in knowledge of technological singularity would either keep us (hopefully) from ever needing AIs again or a need to rewrite ourselves to be smarter.  That's the plan anyways and there's probably a reason why this plan B (Synergy) wasn't chosen over plan B (Reapers).

I find it very interesting to talk about.  This is the type of scifi I like.  Almost beyond scifi to "uh oh" moments.
Posted Image

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...
We don't know that they went beyond it. They could very well be inside one of those flying organic/mechanical ships destroying everything or are part of the Guardian consciousness.


Point one is idiotic.
Point two is still past the singularity as they are a super intelligence. Which is stated in the game. Repeatedly.


Again, your missing what occurs if in fact something does hit a technological singularity.  It's obvious from the dialogue the Guardian, and the Reapers, are still limited by original programming.  You don't see the Reapers getting bigger and better over 37 million years.  They're just tools that are super intelligent and on the cusp of the singularity, but are limited to one mission via programming.  They don't rewrite themselves every nano second to be smarter to a point where they're intellectual gods that can control the universe at whim.  They're just superships/avatars that follow a genocidal code every 50K years.


Indeed the problem with the Control and Destroy endings is that they do nothing but delay the inevitable. Synergy is the only ending that engages the issue head on.

#18
RunAwayItzJack

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Ah yes, "Tech singularities" the phenomena Bioware uses as a plot device to screw over the fans, we have dismissed these claims.

#19
Elios

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the Reapers are a Weakly Godlike Intelligence that we will never be able to comprehend
they even say them selves they FAR more advanced then any thing we could ever think of
as sacks of meat we just cant rap our tiny brains around it

just to get an idea one Reaper AI would have the intelligence of mutliple time that ALL of the Galaxy EVER... COMBINED
http://www.kurzweila.../kinds-of-minds

http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0409/elector.shtml
Weakly Godlike Intelligence
A weakly godlike intelligence is not a supernatural agency, but the product of a highly advanced society that learned how to artificially create souls [late twentieth century: software] and translate human minds into souls and vice versa. [Core concepts: human beings all have souls. Souls are software objects. Software is not immortal.]



#20
Balek-Vriege

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Elios wrote...

the Reapers are a Weakly Godlike Intelligence that we will never be able to comprehend
they even say them selves they FAR more advanced then any thing we could ever think of
as sacks of meat we just cant rap our tiny brains around it

just to get an idea one Reaper AI would have the intelligence of mutliple time that ALL of the Galaxy EVER... COMBINED
http://www.kurzweila.../kinds-of-minds

http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0409/elector.shtml
Weakly Godlike Intelligence
A weakly godlike intelligence is not a supernatural agency, but the product of a highly advanced society that learned how to artificially create souls [late twentieth century: software] and translate human minds into souls and vice versa. [Core concepts: human beings all have souls. Souls are software objects. Software is not immortal.]


Very true (except I would personally take out souls since I don't believe they exist), but they're still not a runaway intelligence or a technological singularity because they are stagnant.  They're controlled by the Guardian and the Guardian is controlled by code.  They may be weakly godlike intelligent, but they don't get to use it to their full potential because of constraints.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 03 mars 2012 - 08:58 .


#21
themaxzero

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Elios wrote...

the Reapers are a Weakly Godlike Intelligence that we will never be able to comprehend
they even say them selves they FAR more advanced then any thing we could ever think of
as sacks of meat we just cant rap our tiny brains around it

just to get an idea one Reaper AI would have the intelligence of mutliple time that ALL of the Galaxy EVER... COMBINED
http://www.kurzweila.../kinds-of-minds

http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0409/elector.shtml
Weakly Godlike Intelligence
A weakly godlike intelligence is not a supernatural agency, but the product of a highly advanced society that learned how to artificially create souls [late twentieth century: software] and translate human minds into souls and vice versa. [Core concepts: human beings all have souls. Souls are software objects. Software is not immortal.]


The problem is that's as far as the Reapers will go. They are programmed to not go any further.

The Guardian's fear is that organics eventually will.

#22
Elios

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read Accelerando
http://en.wikipedia....lerando_(novel)
you will see some people/AI chose not to keep changing at a point
also try to follow the path that Aineko takes

#23
Turel11234

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Okay, this hostility is unwarranted.

Use your brains goddamnit instead spouting bull****.



The Reapers were afraid of a singularity in case of which an AI develops that is vastly superior to organics.
And then it's decides that they are a threat to its continued existence and attempts to wipe them out.
As a machine intellect it is devoid of emotions and does it's job throughly - eliminating all organic life - including some primordial soup on a planet at a butt end of the galaxy - lest it might someday evolve into something threatening.
And all the time it continues to improve itself, essentially wiping the galaxy bare of resources(which is something that Geth actually begun to do in their space) - thus giving no chance to for organic life to evolve EVER again.
And in the end we have a sterile, barren galaxy with a gigantic supercomputer made out off all the resources. Once the AI figures that it is STILL not enough and there is still room for improvement it will spill over to other, neighboring galaxies to harvest more resources and "build additional pylons"


Now what the reapers do is to purge the galaxy of all advanced organics that are at risk of unleashing such a fatal singularity - and preserving and memorializing it's collective consciousnes in the form of a reaper. All the while all the while sparing younger races.
Yeah - they end existances of trillions of beings each cycle, but it's just a statistic in the grand scale of things - in the end what they do is making sure that organic life keeps existing.
It is all in the probability - with the size of the galaxy, the multitude of races inhabiting at any given time a fatal singularity WILL HAPPEN sooner or later.
And once it happens it's "game over man, game over!" - the scenario that they fear and i described only needs to happen once and it is all over - BAM! no more organics - ever.
Who knows? perhaps the original race begun the cycle after suffering a very harrowing, very, very, very close call themselves in the prehistoric past.


And with the info we have, close calls are actually pretty frequent.
The failed AI uprising in the prothean era taht was dealt with by blowing the ****ING SUN in the respective system and the recent Morning War.

Before any of you jumps out and say "hey! but the Geth aren't hostile, just isolationist!" let me remind you.
Their current plan is to build a massive dyson sphere encasing a goddamn star so they can happily make consensus as one, even better, even faster - what if they decide that it is still not enough?
Sure - our bro, Legion said that they bear no ill will toward the organics and don't care about them one way or the other unless they're try to interfere.
I'll be damned if they don't try to interfere in case of Geth gobbling up a galaxy worth of resources. 


In the end what the reapers do, is trying to save us from ourselves - even if we don't want to or won't even acknowlegde or believe taht the problem even exists to begin with.
And more so they realize that their solution is cruel, gruesome and definitely NOT ideal - hence the Guardian if anyone has any better ideas.


Flame me if you wish, but i believe that the singularity motive is a lot better than the Dark Energy bull****.
I hope i have given you a proper context and some food for thought.
Flame me if you wish i don't care :devil:

#24
TekFanX

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Turel11234 wrote...

Okay, this hostility is unwarranted.

Use your brains goddamnit instead spouting bull****.



The Reapers were afraid of a singularity in case of which an AI develops that is vastly superior to organics.
And then it's decides that they are a threat to its continued existence and attempts to wipe them out.
As a machine intellect it is devoid of emotions and does it's job throughly - eliminating all organic life - including some primordial soup on a planet at a butt end of the galaxy - lest it might someday evolve into something threatening.
And all the time it continues to improve itself, essentially wiping the galaxy bare of resources(which is something that Geth actually begun to do in their space) - thus giving no chance to for organic life to evolve EVER again.
And in the end we have a sterile, barren galaxy with a gigantic supercomputer made out off all the resources. Once the AI figures that it is STILL not enough and there is still room for improvement it will spill over to other, neighboring galaxies to harvest more resources and "build additional pylons"


Now what the reapers do is to purge the galaxy of all advanced organics that are at risk of unleashing such a fatal singularity - and preserving and memorializing it's collective consciousnes in the form of a reaper. All the while all the while sparing younger races.
Yeah - they end existances of trillions of beings each cycle, but it's just a statistic in the grand scale of things - in the end what they do is making sure that organic life keeps existing.
It is all in the probability - with the size of the galaxy, the multitude of races inhabiting at any given time a fatal singularity WILL HAPPEN sooner or later.
And once it happens it's "game over man, game over!" - the scenario that they fear and i described only needs to happen once and it is all over - BAM! no more organics - ever.
Who knows? perhaps the original race begun the cycle after suffering a very harrowing, very, very, very close call themselves in the prehistoric past.


And with the info we have, close calls are actually pretty frequent.
The failed AI uprising in the prothean era taht was dealt with by blowing the ****ING SUN in the respective system and the recent Morning War.

Before any of you jumps out and say "hey! but the Geth aren't hostile, just isolationist!" let me remind you.
Their current plan is to build a massive dyson sphere encasing a goddamn star so they can happily make consensus as one, even better, even faster - what if they decide that it is still not enough?
Sure - our bro, Legion said that they bear no ill will toward the organics and don't care about them one way or the other unless they're try to interfere.
I'll be damned if they don't try to interfere in case of Geth gobbling up a galaxy worth of resources. 


In the end what the reapers do, is trying to save us from ourselves - even if we don't want to or won't even acknowlegde or believe taht the problem even exists to begin with.
And more so they realize that their solution is cruel, gruesome and definitely NOT ideal - hence the Guardian if anyone has any better ideas.


Flame me if you wish, but i believe that the singularity motive is a lot better than the Dark Energy bull****.
I hope i have given you a proper context and some food for thought.
Flame me if you wish i don't care :devil:



I'm not gonna flame you, in fact, you brought up some points I agree with.
Now comes the great "But"(I see Miranda-jokes coming about that sentence):

If you know something you do is gruesome and makes people fear you, you would find a solution to do it in the dark.
Instead, they built giant space-ships, that turn your people into cyber-zombies.
Reapers are capable of creating frankenstein-husks from different species as they please, but they are not capable of creating some kind of plan to do their task peacefully or without carnage?
Instead they risk a fullscale-war and do their halloween-theme over and over again.

Why harvest organics and make them live their last years in terrible fear of husks or indoctrinated people, if you just want to preserve organic live?
How do I have to imagine such a race?
Like doctors who dress up like Freddy Kruger in a childs hospital?

#25
Aesieru

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Where do we find out about this dyson sphere around a sun? I don't remember LEgion saying that.