51 réponses à ce sujet

[SheffSteel]

Cast, wait... cast, drink, wait... cast, wait... repeat until enemies dead.

That sort of spellcasting leaves you waiting and watching cooldown and mana bars throughout combat and it just isn't very good fun.

Mana potions have been a problem since the first game that didn't use a D&D "N-spells-per-day" system to limit spellcasting. (I'm not going to attempt to correctly name that game. I think Dungeon Siege was the first one I played.) Even worse, once you can afford a couple of mana potions, the cooldown timer becomes the key element of the magic system, because without it you'd be able to cast your most powerful spell back-to-back until the combat was over - something which you certainly could do in D&D-based systems, but it didn't cause a problem because of the need for rest.
The Baldur's Gate / Icewind Dale implementations of the D&D system were more fun than DA:O in many ways, even though they had the added complication of the party having to rest, with the potential for endless ambushes. In DA:O, you are fully recovered within seconds of the last fight... so every fight is like a new day... so every fight might as well be exactly as tough as the last one, otherwise it won't be a challenge.

Pacing is an important part of level design and it seems to be a casualty of the magic system.

There's none of the thrill of entering combat that was so common under the old system, where you had to judge whether this was a little-guy fight and not worth using any of your precious spells, or an "okay-this-is-it-no-more-Mr-Nice-Guy-web-fireball-fireball-grease-fireball-Melf's-acid-arrow-Agannazzar's-scorcher-magic-missile-magic-missile-magic-missile-magic-missile-magic-missile-oh-they're-all-dead" fight, or somewhere in between. The nearest thing you can do to that in DA:O is decide whether the fight is worth drinking mana potions, and if so, how many.

Another M.I.A. feature is the ability or option to have multiple copies of a useful spell ready to be cast in succession. Sorcerors could always do this, of course, but even Mages could prepare multiple copies of critical spells such as Fireball. Now all your spells are just there... like independent entities that will let you use them... but only when they're ready. I will never be happy to be a mage, staring at half a dozen cooldown timers and seeing the first one go ping. Great, I think, I am not casting any spell, I have enough mana to cast any spell, but I cannot cast any spell other than that particular one right now, because I can remember casting the others quite recently and I am suffering from a set of mystical hangovers, one specific to each other spell, that prevents me from casting it again just yet. This one spell, though, I can cast no problem, even if it's similar to, or more powerful than, or harder to learn than, another spell that I can't cast.

If as the designer it is your intention for mages to be able to cast spells continuously through battle then raise the mana regen rate enough to make it feasible, or lower the cost per spell enough that an appropriate number of spells can be cast before running out. Having mana potions as a toll-booth gameplay mechanism just doesn't add much.

If casting the same spell repeatedly offends you, O designer, then increase its mana cost to the point that it really cannot be cast very often. Better yet, increase the casting time of very powerful spells, making the easy and trivial spells a bit more appealing by contrast. Yes, that's time spent casting the spell before the effect occurs - you know, actual mystic stuff like incanting and making gestures - not time spent "recovering" (even if you're casting more demanding spells) after casting.

And please, spare me the weak arguments about realism being out of place in a fantasy game. Suspension of disbelief is the designer's responsibility. The designer expects the player to make an effort to believe in the game world and the player expects the designer to make an effort to create a world that is believable. Do not make it harder for me by introducing bare-faced gameplay mechanisms like cooldown timers.

Thanks for reading.

[Seifz]

I very much prefer potions and cooldowns to the "N spells per day" system that D&D used. In fact, I hate the D&D system, especially with classes that have to choose which spells to memorize.

[Taleroth]

Why are you focusing on Mages here? Most of your issue is equal to all classes, mana or no. Like, 90% of your issue. Cooldowns? Check. Checking your stamina bar? Check. Waiting for regen? Check.

This system is a vast improvement over the old. Deciding if an enemy is worth your "oh so precious spells" isn't all that fun, either. Because if he's not, you're down to auto-attacking. The same exact thing you're doing under the current system if you're out of mana or waiting on cooldowns. Only then you're doing it for entire fights.

Checking timers is undeniably more fun than taking a nap.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:10 .

[JessicaGlenn]

Its fun I like it.

[Seifz]

Taleroth wrote...

Why are you focusing on Mages here? Most of your issue is equal to all classes, mana or no. Like, 90% of your issue. Cooldowns? Check. Checking your stamina bar? Check. Waiting for regen? Check.

This system is a vast improvement over the old. Deciding if an enemy is worth your "oh so precious spells" isn't all that fun, either. Because if he's not, you're down to auto-attacking. The same exact thing you're doing under the current system if you're out of mana or waiting on cooldowns. Only then you're doing it for entire fights.

Checking timers is undeniably more fun than taking a nap.

Plus, this system forces you to use a variety of spells and talents.  You can't just memorize 10 Isaac's Greater Missile Storms and 10 Harms and just destroy everything in your path.

[konfeta]

Your argument can be summarized as:



"I want Vancian spellcasting, any other system sucks. bring back my DnD."



While there are problems with mages having essentially unlimited mana in a fight, going back to the god-awful DnD system of spellcasting is not the answer.

[Sakiradesu]

If you love mage mana management, you should try making a warrior or a rogue.

[SheffSteel]

konfeta wrote...

Your argument can be summarized as:

"I want Vancian spellcasting, any other system sucks. bring back my DnD."

While there are problems with mages having essentially unlimited mana in a fight, going back to the god-awful DnD system of spellcasting is not the answer.

I don't like D&D. Sorry if I gave the impression that I didn't think there was an alternative.

[GravityParade]

Spells per day is dumb on a crpg because you just rest after every combat scenario. In a PnP game, you don't get away with that, but it was really dumb in NWN just hitting the R button after every scenario.

If you don't rest then that's all well and good, but it just takes longer to kill everything, and if you get to a point where you die, you just rest anway so you have all your spells available so you don't die again. It's really silly in CRPG, the DA:O is more suitable. What I think Bioware should have done, is made the cooldowns on potions significantly longer, or make it so only 1 of each unique potion type was available to each character, once per combat. I'm sure a mod can be written to implement that.

Modifié par GravityParade, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:28 .

[Laura Jean]

as a vetren player of ADnD I find the mana system much more realistic. The idea that you for get your spells until the next day or rest period is dumb. also you are forgetting the DnD spell had a casting time they are not always instant. Cooldown time only put time between the same spell I can most spell right away, except for the large area effect spell like blizzard. In a mana base system you just need to manage your spells and mana differently than a fire and forget system. Each had their own pluses and minuses.

[aidron]

As someone who grew up on D&D I must admit that I prefer the DA: O system. I relate to the cooldown timers as the spells themselves being taxing, preventing you from casting them repeatedly in quick succession.

Cool-down timers for potions have never been an issue for me though as I simply do not spam potions - that's my playstyle though. I enjoy the wait and the anticipation involved.

That's me though.

[Houkka]

I like both systems, so how do you guys like THAT?



Seriously, I think both of the systems are fun. Taleroth makes a valid argument, I do think fighting is more fun when you don't just keep auto-attacking.

[Sloth Of Doom]

SheffSteel wrote...

konfeta wrote...

Your argument can be summarized as:

"I want Vancian spellcasting, any other system sucks. bring back my DnD."

While there are problems with mages having essentially unlimited mana in a fight, going back to the god-awful DnD system of spellcasting is not the answer.

I don't like D&D. Sorry if I gave the impression that I didn't think there was an alternative.

You didn't give that impression at all Sheff, but it is exactly the type of first-page response that was predicted over in that other thread where you mentioned blogging about this. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

I have to say I agree with you on some points but not on others.   The constant chugging of mana potions is terribe.  It is one of the main reasons everyone crys about mages being 'overpowered' since it makes mana management irrelevant.  I think a move to make mana potions extremely rare would greatly increase the 'realism' of the game, and make peope use thier mages more strategically.   For people that find that too difficult, mages could be given a silly amount of mana regen on easy.

The spell cooldown thing bothers me somewhat less than it does you.  Sure it is somewhat silly and arbitrary, but no more so than saying that you can only memorize a certain number of spells per day, and some have to be this level and some have to be that level, etc.   A move to make castng times (incantations and such) longer might seem like a good idea at the outset, but in truth it would render most spells utterly useless.  You don't need cone of cold in 20 seconds, you need it now.  You need fireball before things get close to you, not thrown behind the meee 15 seconds late.  I'm not sure there is an easy solution that incorporates both 'realism' and balanced gameplay.

Were mana much harder to come by, as I previously suggested, you could possibly have a spell system whre everything was instant with no cooldown.  People would then be forced to choose between throwing three fieballs in quick succession or saving soe mana for the rest of the fight.   An attractive proposition, but no doubt some minmaxing fatbeard would come along with the ultimate spell combo in three minutes and then cry about how mages are broken.  I am willing to have arbitrary timers on my spells if they lead to balanced gameplay.

Modifié par Sloth Of Doom, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:41 .

[Mikey_205]

I like DnD more than constant cooldowns for everything, mana itself is cool though. I quite liked the Vancian system in that holding back seems a better way to manage things than just using everything every fight. The last makes every fight feel the same.



Vancian flaws in BG2 were that there were no resting restrictions. Also whoever had the above spell list that is terrible. Its more like Contingency stoneskin and spell turning cast Timestop,Meteor,Meteor, Sequenced 3x Fireball,Dragons breath,.Fireball, Fireball,

Time restarts computer makes terrible noise and everything on screen is dead. If not cast wish and select option to be given all spells back and repeat. I need to play me some BG2 and create another god mage.

[Jabberwockey]

Speaking of potions. I Just started playing a mage and I am having a very hard time finding enough mana potions or the ingredients to make them. Any tips on how to keep a decent supply?



Thanks in advance

[Mikey_205]

But then you needed that kind of strategy near the end of the game and liches could do the same to you. The best was the one creature who was immune to Timestop then you cast it and the rest of your party was frozen and you were like and running away.

[Exodus]

I can only suggest this because I somewhat understand what the OP is saying but their are things in place to ensure that make encounters easier.



-Mana Pots(obviously!)

-You're having mana issues invest in talents that recover mana!

-Invest in willpower, it's not just a useless stat it increases your mana pool

-Use equipment that has mana regeneration as well as willpower



To be honest with you don't know how you are having mana issues with this game considering how powerful mages are to begin with, with morrigan simply casting sleep and nightmare will take care of more than half the fights. Then there's spells like glyph of repulsion that is worth it in spades to keep your healer from getting attacked. I honestly don't know what you're doing but you're definitely doing it wrong.

[Eternal Dust]

What I find ridiculous is the cool down for stealing even when the target has "nothing to steal." Seriously.

[Sloth Of Doom]

octoberfire wrote...

What I find ridiculous is the cool down for stealing even when the target has "nothing to steal." Seriously.

Yeah, get the mod that reduces the cooldown to 1.5 seconds.  Seriously.

[Taleroth]

Jabberwockey wrote...

Speaking of potions. I Just started playing a mage and I am having a very hard time finding enough mana potions or the ingredients to make them. Any tips on how to keep a decent supply?

Thanks in advance

I'll PM you.

Apparently I can't.  Half the javascript functions on this website don't work for me.  If you ask in spoiler forum, I'll tell you all I know.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[konfeta]

You didn't give that impression at all Sheff

...

He complains about all spellcasting systems since DnD lacking resource management and gameplay exclusive to the DnD system.

Come again? I am fairly certain he was giving precisely that impression until he explicitely stated that he didn't want the Vancian system back.

Modifié par konfeta, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[SheffSteel]

For those who don't see the problems with cooldowns, imagine this scene in a pencil & paper game:-
Player: I cast Winter's Grasp! (I am attacking the darkness)
DM: okay
Player: I want to cast Winter's Grasp again
DM: you can't, but you can cast any other spell
Player: So I can cast Cone of Cold or Blizzard but not Winter's Grasp?
DM: uh, yeah
Player: Okay, I cast Cone of Cold.
DM: okay
Player: Now I wanna cast Winter's Grasp!
DM: you can't cast it yet. You can only cast Blizzard.

Anyone who can come up with a good in-universe explanation of the last two lines of dialogue will earn my considerable respect.

[Taleroth]

SheffSteel wrote...

For those who don't see the problems with cooldowns, imagine this scene in a pencil & paper game:-
Player: I cast Winter's Grasp! (I am attacking the darkness)
DM: okay
Player: I want to cast Winter's Grasp again
DM: you can't, but you can cast any other spell
Player: So I can cast Cone of Cold or Blizzard but not Winter's Grasp?
DM: uh, yeah
Player: Okay, I cast Cone of Cold.
DM: okay
Player: Now I wanna cast Winter's Grasp!
DM: you can't cast it yet. You can only cast Blizzard.

Anyone who can come up with a good in-universe explanation of the last two lines of dialogue will earn my considerable respect.

Because you're not prepared.

Take Vancian's excuse, shift an inch to the right.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[SheffSteel]

konfeta wrote...

You didn't give that impression at all Sheff

...

He complains about all spellcasting systems since DnD lacking resource management and gameplay exclusive to the DnD system.

Come again? I am fairly certain he was giving precisely that impression until he explicitely stated that he didn't want the Vancian system back.

First problem, I didn't mention the Vancian system at all, not least because I'm not sure what it means exactly. I tended to play a sorceror, if that helps. I detested the D&D mage's limitations in general and the specific implementations in the Infinity Engine games had additional problems.

Secondly, I really don't remember talking about anything exclusive to the D&D system as being a good thing. I complained about mana potions and cooldown timers, not "all spellcasting systems since DnD".

The magic system I like best was the battle magic used in 2nd edition RuneQuest, where a player had a pool of power and each spell had a cost. That's a lot like mana except that it regenerated very slowly... in fact it took 24 hours to regain all your power points. But you could cast any combination of spells, one per round, until you ran out of power.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:07 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

SheffSteel wrote...

For those who don't see the problems with cooldowns, imagine this scene in a pencil & paper game:-
Player: I cast Winter's Grasp! (I am attacking the darkness)
DM: okay
Player: I want to cast Winter's Grasp again
DM: you can't, but you can cast any other spell
Player: So I can cast Cone of Cold or Blizzard but not Winter's Grasp?
DM: uh, yeah
Player: Okay, I cast Cone of Cold.
DM: okay
Player: Now I wanna cast Winter's Grasp!
DM: you can't cast it yet. You can only cast Blizzard.

Anyone who can come up with a good in-universe explanation of the last two lines of dialogue will earn my considerable respect.

I'll give it a shot (even though I agree with you).

Casting a spell requires a mage to directy access and warp the Fade around them in order to produce a physical response in the real world.  Each spell (and each caster) is unique, and requires accessing the Fade in a different way, this twisting of the Fade produces short-term damage to the caster'sbridge between reaity and the Fade, making it impossible for the catr to recreate the same spell effect for a short period of time.   Generally, the more power drawn from the Fade, the longer it takes the 'wound' to heal.  Since each spell accesses the fade in a different way, casters are stil able to produce alternate and even similar spell effects in the same area, but identical receation of a spell effect proves impossible.


Meh...needs a bit of polish and whatnot, but it woud work.