51 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

DnD / BG 2 = made by roleplayers for roleplayers.



DA = designed to appeal to the mainstream.



Enough said? I agree with most, but lamenting won't change a thing. At least there's hope of mods putting some of the "legacy" stuff back in.

[Kaosgirl]

Laura Jean wrote...

as a vetren player of ADnD I find the mana system much more realistic. The idea that you for get your spells until the next day or rest period is dumb.

The idea of "you forget the spells" is dumb, but the prepared-spells  mechanic has some appeal to many.  That's why there's alternate explanations or in-world justifications for how it works

The most common one trades off "forgetting" the spells for the idea of preparing and investing.  They're more like rituals with the finish put on hold - when you finish the spell, the energy invested in 'preparing' it is gone and you have to wait for a suitable opportunity to reinvest that energy in that spell (or decide to invest in other ones for the day.)

[SheffSteel]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...
some interesting and thoughtful stuff

One potential solution to the potion-chugging problem is to make potions alcohol-based and/or toxic. This worked pretty well in the Witcher, especially considering that you could brew more expensive and less toxic potions, and that you gradually started to suffer hallucinations the more you drank. In DA:O it should have been a no-brainer considering that lyrium is supposed to be a harmful substance. Hell, we could put together a mod that made lyrium potions damage your health.

Another option would be to make mana regeneration an increase-over-time thing, i.e. drinking a potion increases the regeneration rate rather than giving you "instant power".

My suggestion for warm-up times for spells wan't meant to go as far as 15 or 20 sec, just a couple. Perhaps a five-second delay on something really earth-shattering would make it really mean something - and there's no reason why you couldn't use lesser crowd-control measures (glyphs, traps, bombs, knockback) to keep people where you wanted them.

I agree with you that a system with limited mana and no delays in spellcasting would be a recipe for min-max anarchy.

The thing I'd most like to have seen would have been a recovery time after casting a spell where you - shock, horror - can't cast any other spell. That would make the big spells mean something, but keep them quickly accessible, and avoid the crazier implications of the cooldown system.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:22 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

>>>>Cast, wait... cast, drink, wait... cast, wait... repeat until enemies dead.<<<<<



I guess you are not putting any points into willpower? I've been going 2 magic/ 1 willpower on each level up so I don't have that problem. Yeah, I'd like more mana, but I can still cast a number of spells without my mana being depleted.



My only gripe is not enough spots on the expanded hotbar. Only like 19 on mine (expanded.) I'm almost out then I'll have to chose what spells get kicked off.

[Dex1701]

I don't think the system is bad. My favorite system for limiting spellcasting was the fatigue system from the Shadowrun PnP RPG, though.

[Brian Chung]

SheffSteel wrote...
 In DA:O it should have been a no-brainer considering that lyrium is supposed to be a harmful substance. Hell, we could put together a mod that made lyrium potions damage your health.

At one point during development there was a system where you could get addicted to lyrium, and suffer dimishing returns on how much mana you regained when quaffing a potion.

Another option would be to make mana regeneration an increase-over-time thing, i.e. drinking a potion increases the regeneration rate rather than giving you "instant power".

Again, at one point both health and mana potions was regenerated over time instead of instant.  You'll have to ask GeorgZ why it was changed.  I suspect it's because that system wasn't that much fun, but it definitely made the game more challenging.

[MerinTB]

I may have some 3.5 D&D fans attacking me, but . . .



4th ED D&D has at-will, encounter and daily spells. Eliminates both the oddness of the N spells per day, but doesn't introduce another stat to track (mana) while still limiting how often / how many spells you can cast.



Personally, I like the magic in DAO just fine.



--



Also, until about level 13 or so - I was desperately short on health and mana potions, having to play with few to none most of the time. I also had very little gold (still have very little gold), the least amount of money I've ever had in a CRPG in fact.



So mileage varies on the "ease" of having unlimited potions of any kind. Depends on how you play. If you have walkthroughs, strategy guides, or are on your 2nd or 3rd time through, yeah, maybe you've figured out how to game the system.



Now imagine you are playing it your first time without any of that knowledge - you don't automatically know how to get tons of money and unlimited potions - your resources feel extremely limited.



Because you know (or an external resource tells you) how to get unlimited X or Y doesn't mean that it's obvious to your average, non-external resource using player.

[MediumD]

I think it'd be easier to code a global cooldown on potions, so that only one could be used per per person per encounter. Or even none. The whole concept of drinking something during combat seems silly.



I like D&D4e's encounter system, wherein you have at-will powers you can use repeatedly, encounter powers you can use once per combat, and per-day powers. 4e also balanced all the classes against each other. DA:O has linear warriors and quadratic mages.



Not that I don't find that fun as well. I'm running through the game again on hard mode with three mages and a (mostly useless) tank.

[Kaosgirl]

SheffSteel wrote...



First problem, I didn't mention the Vancian system at all, not least because I'm not sure what it means exactly.

Vancian magic is the slotted spells-per-day concept. It's named after an author, last name Vance, who used a form of it in his fantasy fiction - I forget if he was inspired by D&D or if it was the other way around, though.



So when you speak of D&D's magic system, you're implicitly speaking of the Vancian system as well.

(Well, pre-4th edition D&D anyway.)

SheffSteel wrote...

Secondly, I really don't remember talking about anything exclusive to the D&D system as being a good thing.

In the OP, you very explicitly mentioned the D&D system (multiple times) as the one you were making comparisons to.

SheffSteel wrote...

The magic system I like best was the battle magic used in 2nd edition RuneQuest, where a player had a pool of power and each spell had a cost. That's a lot like mana except that it regenerated very slowly... in fact it took 24 hours to regain all your power points. But you could cast any combination of spells, one per round, until you ran out of power.

Never played RuneQuest, but it sounds like literally every other mana-pool system out there. Slower regen rate just means a different idea on "pacing," and one that doesn't really translate well into CRPGs.

MerinTB wrote...



I may have some 3.5 D&D fans attacking me, but . . .



4th ED D&D has at-will, encounter and daily spells. Eliminates both the oddness of the N spells per day, but doesn't introduce another stat to track (mana) while still limiting how often / how many spells you can cast.

4th ED is most commonly criticized by D&D grognards as "dumbing PnP down for the CRPG crowd"

But that aside: you're trading off 'another stat to track' by adding three new ability categories to track.

[Sloth Of Doom]

*Attacks MerinTB*

In the interest of brevity I will simply burn a 4e book in your honor, since i can't offload (barely) used copies anywhere.

In all seriousness though, the 4e spell system is, at its core, almost identical to the DA system.  Spells are still on cooldown but the cooldowns happen to fall into regulated categories as opposed to seconds.  Cooldowns of one round, one fight, or one day are just as arbitrary as cooldowns of 13 seconds 15 seconds and 20 seconds.

[Thalandor21]

If it was up to me, there would be no lyrium potions at all, but mana (and stamina) would regenerate much faster. It wouldn't change much of anything for fights against normal mobs, except that your warrior/rogues might be able to pull off their 3-4 moves more often. Mana would because an issue during challanging fights, where you'd be watching your mana meter grow (quickly) until you can launch that next fireball...

[KirbySkywalker]

i agree, cool downs are stupid. spell management should be based on mana. nothing more. potion management should be based on how many you have, not how often you can use them.

[Mikey_205]

The problem with mana and why it necessitates cooldowns is that unlike Vancian you can blow your entire mana pool on a single spell which isnt very tactical or much fun because all you'd do is spam cone of cold on melee. You could argue that this is more a problem of balancing certain spells.

[Skellimancer]

Seeing how Mages are gods maybe Bioware should just go ahead and give them infinite mana.



And force a rename of all Mage characters to "Irenicus". Voiceset included.

[Ginnerben]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

For those who don't see the problems with cooldowns, imagine this scene in a pencil & paper game:-
Player: I cast Winter's Grasp! (I am attacking the darkness)
DM: okay
Player: I want to cast Winter's Grasp again
DM: you can't, but you can cast any other spell
Player: So I can cast Cone of Cold or Blizzard but not Winter's Grasp?
DM: uh, yeah
Player: Okay, I cast Cone of Cold.
DM: okay
Player: Now I wanna cast Winter's Grasp!
DM: you can't cast it yet. You can only cast Blizzard.

Anyone who can come up with a good in-universe explanation of the last two lines of dialogue will earn my considerable respect.

I'll give it a shot (even though I agree with you).

Casting a spell requires a mage to directy access and warp the Fade around them in order to produce a physical response in the real world.  Each spell (and each caster) is unique, and requires accessing the Fade in a different way, this twisting of the Fade produces short-term damage to the caster'sbridge between reaity and the Fade, making it impossible for the catr to recreate the same spell effect for a short period of time.   Generally, the more power drawn from the Fade, the longer it takes the 'wound' to heal.  Since each spell accesses the fade in a different way, casters are stil able to produce alternate and even similar spell effects in the same area, but identical receation of a spell effect proves impossible.


Meh...needs a bit of polish and whatnot, but it woud work.

Sloth of Doom, you may well be my favourite poster on this forum.  Thanks

[Eternal Dust]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

octoberfire wrote...

What I find ridiculous is the cool down for stealing even when the target has "nothing to steal." Seriously.

Yeah, get the mod that reduces the cooldown to 1.5 seconds.  Seriously.

The fact that there is a cooldown at all on it is ridiculous. Ok? Using the "get x mod to solve y problem" argument is getting a little tiring when the problem itself should not have existed in the first place.

[Sloth Of Doom]

octoberfire wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

octoberfire wrote...

What I find ridiculous is the cool down for stealing even when the target has "nothing to steal." Seriously.

Yeah, get the mod that reduces the cooldown to 1.5 seconds.  Seriously.

The fact that there is a cooldown at all on it is ridiculous. Ok? Using the "get x mod to solve y problem" argument is getting a little tiring when the problem itself should not have existed in the first place.

Meh maybe that came across wrong, I was agreeing with you and saying you should seriously get the mod because the game mechanic is retarded.

[0mar]

Real problem is the spammability of lyrium potions with no consequence. It reduces the game to a spell-spam fest. In a game that prides itself on tactical combat, this mechanic should not exist. Just as warriors and rogues have to choose which attacks to make and which attacks to not make, mages should make the same choices.

[GlassRain]

Brian Chung wrote...


At one point during development there was a system where you could get addicted to lyrium, and suffer dimishing returns on how much mana you regained when quaffing a potion.

I'll be looking forward to the mod that brings this back. Same thing with health pultices. No game should ever allow you infinite life or power.

To address the topic and the relation between D&D and Mana.. where is the difference? So D&D let you memorize spells. Dragon Age gives you a pool from which you can cast so many spells. There are limiting factors on each, the only difference being potions. Dragon age casters are basically Sorcerers in respect to D&D.

I've played the game through on a mage and survived on just the mana pots I found during travel and usually only popped one during a tough fight. I was actually taken back by the absurdity of using potions constantly that everyone seems to be chanting. If you don't like the system of chugging potions every 5-10 seconds... don't?

[Spaceweed10]

Casting certain spells whenever you want to, and having mana pots that instafill on request isn't fun either.  It's pointless.

You want to play a laydown - go play WoW.

[Spaceweed10]

bjdbwea wrote...

DnD / BG 2 = made by roleplayers for roleplayers.

DA = designed to appeal to the mainstream.

Enough said? I agree with most, but lamenting won't change a thing. At least there's hope of mods putting some of the "legacy" stuff back in.

DnD is a dinosaur - as are you.

This game isn't 'mainstream', otherwise you wouldn't have another QQ thread every 30secs.  It 'is' in  danger in going that way though, if Bioware listen to these dweebs who can't play the game because it requires an IQ over 35....

Modifié par Spaceweed10, 25 novembre 2009 - 11:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Spaceweed10 wrote...

DnD is a dinosaur - as are you.

His being a dinosaur doesn't make him wrong.

I still think 3E D&D was too dumbed-down.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Wow, almost 2 whole pages of conversation until it started breaking down into name-calling. Impressive.

[SheffSteel]

Well, I'm going to continue playing a Mage (and a Rogue) some more before I comment again on the magic system. Thanks to everyone for your responses.

[Dark83]

Kaosgirl wrote...

Vancian magic is the slotted spells-per-day concept. It's named after an author, last name Vance, who used a form of it in his fantasy fiction - I forget if he was inspired by D&D or if it was the other way around, though.

Vance shot was first.
The Dying Earth series, specifically.