298 réponses à ce sujet

[blaidfiste]

This is a fantastic game to bring out these types of discussions



My perspective:



Morrigan (a no morals power above all else character) + Flemeth's Grimoire (hidden secrets) + Blood Magic Ritual + An Old God Baby != Happily ever after. She will most likely raise that child as Flemeth raised her then attempt to possess it once it is strong enough.



If Morri was such a "good friend", why would she leave if you refuse her ritual? She gets emotional AFTER you get Flemeth's real grimoire, she really pours it on AFTER you let her have her Godchild.



We know for a fact that the Blight is ended when the demon essence passes on and kills the Warden. Grey Wardens cannot live normal lives. They have nightmares. They eventually succumb to the taint and most choose one last battle in the Deep Roads. What better way for a Grey Warden to meet his/her end than to slay an archdemon?



Now, I have never romanced Alistair. My male PCs go for Morri and females go for Leli and Zev on the side (and the fun times on Isabella's ship ) To all the Alistair lovers having a tough time deciding, I propose this:



Let Alistair kill the archdemon.



From what I've read here and from the times I've spoken to him at camp, Alistair is a Grey Warden first and foremost. The PC has to talk him into being King. The PC then has to talk a GREY WARDEN TEMPLAR into a BLOOD MAGIC ritual that can potentially produce a new ARCHDEMON with an APOSTATE that he DESPISES. All for a life that will eventually be cut short by the taint.



If you let Alistair slay the archdemon, you'll be giving the bastard son something his pampered half brother wanted so desperately but could never achieve. A king that ended the blight!



Let me know if that makes the decision easier.



Great game Bioware!

[Thyrza]

I for one let Alistair kill the archdemon.  He had been my main tank from the start; it would have felt contrived and unnatural to leave him at the gate just to wrangle a "happy" ending based on spoilers I'd read

My elven mage was still angry, not only from being dumped but also by that nonchalant farewell by Alistair at Denerim's gates (when all the companions gathered to say farewell).  I was very surprised that he was just "so long, buddy, it was an honor fighting beside you" with not one mention of the love that had been.  My PC wasn't all that sorry to see Alistair take that run at the archdemon 

But yes, Bioware - thanks for a great game.  These characters are more emotionally engaging than I would have thought possible.

[Thyrza]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

So my elven mage got dumped by Alistair. I understand the arguments in support of this development but what exasperates me most is that he left it to the last minute to tell her. A *good* man would have warned the PC at the start of the romance: there were so many chances during those campfire chats about his birthright, the Wardens' limited lifespan - what better time to bring up the inability to have children?

A *decent* man would have told the PC in Arl Eamon's Denerim estate, after the PC had that chat with Anora. My PC asked him what he wanted; a natural response from Alistair would have been yes or no but either way "if he were king, we'd have to break up". But nooooo, not a word from him so the PC had to go to the Landsmeet and choose who to crown without any warning about how it would affect her.

Hahaha, you sound just like my wife who went "WTF OMFG" when her city elf got dumped. Found it rather amusing because she kept hitting me for supposedly not telling her - in which I had no simply idea that would happen!!!!!

She romanced him as a human noble on her queen playthrough but that was never the same it seems, she just didn't like him after that. In the end - a game character that can invoke emotions whether love or hate = that's Bioware and that's art! Heh

OMG that is exactly how I felt   I don't like Alistair any more.  I wouldn't do another playthrough to become his queen - his affections, so easily lost, don't seem worth winning.

[SleepyBird]

blaidfiste wrote...
[…]I propose this:

Let Alistair kill the archdemon.

From what I've read here and from the times I've spoken to him at camp, Alistair is a Grey Warden first and foremost. The PC has to talk him into being King. The PC then has to talk a GREY WARDEN TEMPLAR into a BLOOD MAGIC ritual that can potentially produce a new ARCHDEMON with an APOSTATE that he DESPISES. All for a life that will eventually be cut short by the taint.

If you let Alistair slay the archdemon, you'll be giving the bastard son something his pampered half brother wanted so desperately but could never achieve. A king that ended the blight!

I would agree if BioWare had put any effort into making that ending of the game emotionally satisfying, but instead what you get is the same happy court celebration as you would get for accepting Morrigan's deal.  No funeral for Alistair, no mourning PC, just all your supposed friends congratulating you on surviving.  Oh, and the backstabbing power-mad conniver gets to be queen and (if you're an elf) crush your people's attempts to gain any freedom or equality. Totally hollow and unsatisfying end if you go that route. 

Modifié par SleepyBird, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[Yorleen]

Will she always be bad to the elves, even if you've always supported her? :/

[Xeyska]

Yorleen wrote...

Will she always be bad to the elves, even if you've always supported her? :/

Sorta, on my City Elf playthrough I let Anora be Queen and Shiani be the Bann. Everything was going fine and dandy until the elves started to get food shortages, they protested and I forgot the rest. But the issues were still there.

Its even worse on other playthroughs where Anora shuts down the Alienage completely in. <_<

She's just like Loghain in this regard, they just don't care about the elves.

Modifié par Xeyska, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:21 .

[ChemicalGreen]

Hmm... I have to say, I've never gotten an epilogue with Anora crushing the alienage. In all occasions where I've allowed her to take the throne, Shianni becomes the Elder of the aliange and eventually a member of the Queen's advisors (or some such). Dalish get their new lands (except when I sided with werewolves) without a hitch.

[Yorleen]

Chemical - Could you please let me know the decisions you took at the end of the game to obtain this? Makes me feel better - my character would have deep regrets if her people would suffer because she didn't try to convince Alistair to become king... Out of a bit of selfishness they just want to keep away from the politics and spend the rest of their life together, as part of the Grey Warden.

[tmp7704]

Xeyska wrote...

Its even worse on other playthroughs where Anora shuts down the Alienage completely in. <_<

It's funny there doesn't seem to be actual ending to such effect defined in the game (you can see all outcomes easily with the updated Toolset)  The only 'shutdown' mentioned is:

"With the slavers shut down in the Alienage ..." branch, which really makes you wonder if this whole rumour started simply with someone not paying attention.

[Querne]

Oops, haven´t been here for a long time. :/

So now I´ve got a new idea:



To not feel bad when Alistair sleeps with Morrigan I thought about "finishing" the romance AFTER the ritual with my second character. If my char isn´t engaged that much perhaps it won´t be that tragical. That would mean no sex at all, because there is no camp situation afterwards.

I know, that this should be possible, because Zevran gave me the earring in Fort Drako short before the final battle.



But I´ve read somewhere, that Alistair won´t marry my char (human noble) if they haven´t slept together before. Can anybody confirm this?



Still haven´t found a mod that would help (allow to keep Alistair and Loghain or something like that) and I´m still to noobish to make it myself.

[Fishy]

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Chaos_Brand wrote...

I've been thinking it over and I still don't get why the ritual had to take place between Morrigan and a Grey Warden (aside from her desire for a creepy old god child.) From what I heard, it seemed like all that was needed was a fetus to absorb the taint. If that were the case, wouldn't a female PC be okay with performing the ritual too? There didn't seem to be any crazy spell business going on.

Yes, there was crazy spell business. If you really pester Morrigan for details, she will say that it is a blood magic ritual. She also says that this was her whole purpose, to conceive a child with the soul of the old god. Morrigan is not a charity, she's not going to help you do the ritual and let you have this baby so that you can save Alistair from the absolute horror of sleeping with a really good-looking woman with no strings attached. Wow. How awful.

Yeah true..But still .. Some human and even GUY see sex has something really intimate and personnal .. SOme of us are romantic and tapping everything that move only because they're hot ..No thanks .. I'm bigger than my dick.

Plus Allistair Hate Morrigan .. Personnally i could never sleep with a girl i hate.

To save my life ... Maybe Maybe hmm .. But i would drink 10 liter of Beer before and take 10 pillow of acid.

Modifié par Suprez30, 10 janvier 2010 - 11:09 .

[ejoslin]

Querne wrote...

Oops, haven´t been here for a long time. :/
So now I´ve got a new idea:

To not feel bad when Alistair sleeps with Morrigan I thought about "finishing" the romance AFTER the ritual with my second character. If my char isn´t engaged that much perhaps it won´t be that tragical. That would mean no sex at all, because there is no camp situation afterwards.
I know, that this should be possible, because Zevran gave me the earring in Fort Drako short before the final battle.

But I´ve read somewhere, that Alistair won´t marry my char (human noble) if they haven´t slept together before. Can anybody confirm this?

Still haven´t found a mod that would help (allow to keep Alistair and Loghain or something like that) and I´m still to noobish to make it myself.

I hate to tell you this, but you didn't finish the romance with Zevran unless that was the second giving of the earring, not the first . . .

And yes, Alistair will marry your character if you haven't slept with him.  You just have to be at 100 friendly or 100 love.  But you won't have the chance to sleep with him after the ritual either.  If you're at 100 love and haven't slept with him, you can make him REALLY embarassed when the subject comes up.

Edit: Thinking about it, you definitely did not finish the Zevran romance.  That one has to finish at the camp, whether you get the proposal or just know you have an elf that loves you.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 janvier 2010 - 11:42 .

[Querne]

You are right, it was the first earring, so I probably haven´t finished the romance. I thought that I had because I got the Zevran+PC epilogue where he went with me to build up the Wardens afterwards. Actually this was an accident - I had 100 approval with Alistair too but the choice-option dialogue between them two didn´t appear - and the Zevran Romance seems to have dominate.



I´m glad that keeping the relationship to Alistair bed-free before the ritual is also an option. It might sound ridiculous, but it makes a difference for me if it is fullfilled before or after the relationship between him and my PC is uhm..deepened.

This way I can really look forward to the wedding night.^^ (can´t get worse after Morrigan)



I have heared, that he refuses to marry my PC if they haven´t slept together before saying that Grey Wardens are unfertile and the king needs a child.

I´m wondering when this dialogue shows up, if it is not necessary to share the tent together.

[Addai]

Querne wrote...

To not feel bad when Alistair sleeps with Morrigan I thought about "finishing" the romance AFTER the ritual with my second character. If my char isn´t engaged that much perhaps it won´t be that tragical. That would mean no sex at all, because there is no camp situation afterwards.

And let Alistair's first time be with Morrigan?!  Nooo, break the guy in with your tender ministrations.  He'll be thinking about you when that candle goes out.  <3

[errant_knight]

Querne wrote...

First of all I love this game, perhaps more than is good for me, if you take a
look at the problems I´ve got now.

I´m playing through as city elf for the very first time now, romancing Alistair.

I spoilered myself accidently searching for something other and know now, that I
will have to let  Alistair sleep with Morrigan to save us both.

I..don´t want to.
Really, really don´t want!
Looking at my char talking to him I usually grine at the monitor because they act so lovely.
I also refused to "harden" him during Goldanna Quest because it would feel like
breaking his character to me.
I can live without becoming queen (I know I can play a noble next time, but
playing first time causes more emotions and it won´t be the same. I´m a little
bit sad, that there aren´t special options for the other  backgrounds), but
giving him to Morrigan tastes damned bitter.

I think it´s a little bit unfair towards girls, because guys romance either
Morrigan anyways or can fullfill the ritual without that Liliana knows (as far I
read in forums) wich is not the same
as "Please darling, be as nice and sleep with the aunt, I really don´t mind. May
I watch?"
Would be nice if the gamedesigner could consider next time, that women are
generally not very good in separating sex and love..but I think in RL most
people wouldn´t be very happy with this situation..

Otherwise I can´t let him die of course. I´m neither keen on dying myself.

Has anybody experimented with keeping Alistair in the party and getting Loghain
anyhow?
Is this really impossible? Really-really?
Can´t I preach about forgivingness for some decades till Alistair gets the clue or something like that?
That would allow to sacrifice Loghain instead.

Any other ideas?

I would quest to hell and back for a real happy ending btw..

I think that it's all the more powerful for being something you don't want. Alistair doesn't want to do it either, but you ask him to. Some folks have objected to Morrigan telling him that he won't hate it as much as he thinks, saying that that's a really nasty thing for her to say right in front of the PC, or seem to hope that he hates every second of it (which isn't possible if the deed is to be achieved). I think it's one of the few kind things she does in the game, and that given that the PC is asking Alistair to do something that goes against all his instincts, she should love him enough to hope that he doesn't find it entirely terrible. Does she really want him to feel tormented about it?

[ejoslin]

Querne wrote...

You are right, it was the first earring, so I probably haven´t finished the romance. I thought that I had because I got the Zevran+PC epilogue where he went with me to build up the Wardens afterwards. Actually this was an accident - I had 100 approval with Alistair too but the choice-option dialogue between them two didn´t appear - and the Zevran Romance seems to have dominate.

I´m glad that keeping the relationship to Alistair bed-free before the ritual is also an option. It might sound ridiculous, but it makes a difference for me if it is fullfilled before or after the relationship between him and my PC is uhm..deepened.
This way I can really look forward to the wedding night.^^ (can´t get worse after Morrigan)

I have heared, that he refuses to marry my PC if they haven´t slept together before saying that Grey Wardens are unfertile and the king needs a child.
I´m wondering when this dialogue shows up, if it is not necessary to share the tent together.

I have had my PC marry him at 100 friendly, never romanced.  I also, as a test, reloaded that character, turned on the romance at the landsmeet door, and still had the engagement, just with some different dialog, different than romanced and already slept with as well (you can make one incredibly embarrassed Alistair there).  However, you need to be at 100 love or 100 friendly -- if you're below 100, he will refuse to marry the PC.

Edit: You will get the epilogue depending on affection level, not how many of the dialogs were completed.  The Zevran romance finishes at the camp.  The only romantic dialog possible after that point is if the human noble is becoming king or queen in a political arrangement, but that discussion can happen before the romance finishes as well.  The Alistair romance, the very last talk, can be anywhere (where you ask him where the relationship is going).

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 janvier 2010 - 12:42 .

[Melca36]

My character is selfish. She made Anora Queen, did the ritual, and she and Alistair will spend the rest of their days as Gray Wardens.

[Monica21]

I just finished my first play through about two hours ago and I had him go through the ritual with Morrigan. I didn't feel bad about it at all. When you have a choice between not being together at all or doing something neither of you likes to be together, I chose the latter. It's a case of the ends justifying the means. In the end, he's happy you're alive and doesn't blame you. The choice was pretty simple. Be happy or be dead.

[EatinMcRib]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I Alistair as much as the next obsessive female fan, but after I said no to Morrigan's deal the first time and saw the outcome, I promptly realized that eh, sending Alistair to spend one night with her wasn't quite as bad as having one of us die. Happy about it? Nope, but it was the only out & I could live with that - it's not like he's attracted to her, much less wants to do it (he clearly, clearly doesn't want to & you have to do the convincing ).

IIRC, he is secretly attracted to her. In one of my playthroughs when he asks about the rest of the party, I remember a reply along the lines of "You really want her, don't you..." and he gives a very weak denial, with some giggling.

Modifié par EatinMcRib, 11 janvier 2010 - 04:08 .

[Monica21]

EatinMcRib wrote...

IIRC, he is secretly attracted to her. In one of my playthroughs when he asks about the rest of the party, I remember a reply along the lines of "You really want her, don't you..." and he gives a very weak denial, with some giggling.

Possibly, but only if you're not playing a female who's also romancing him.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

EatinMcRib wrote...

IIRC, he is secretly attracted to her. In one of my playthroughs when he asks about the rest of the party, I remember a reply along the lines of "You really want her, don't you..." and he gives a very weak denial, with some giggling.

Possibly, but only if you're not playing a female who's also romancing him.

It's only in a male play through.  I don't like Alistair much, so unless I have a specific plan for him (involving feeding him to the archdemon), I don't romance him and I never see that option.

[knarayan]

The only way to happiness is by romancing the rogue?

Bisexuals are better?

[Querne]

errant_knight wrote...

I think that it's all the more powerful for being something you don't want. Alistair doesn't want to do it either, but you ask him to. Some folks have objected to Morrigan telling him that he won't hate it as much as he thinks, saying that that's a really nasty thing for her to say right in front of the PC, or seem to hope that he hates every second of it (which isn't possible if the deed is to be achieved). I think it's one of the few kind things she does in the game, and that given that the PC is asking Alistair to do something that goes against all his instincts, she should love him enough to hope that he doesn't find it entirely terrible. Does she really want him to feel tormented about it?

Sorry, but I don´t see any kindness in it.  Morrigan is very selfish and very, very selfconfidental about her sexual attraction what can be seen in many dialogues (teasing Sten lines f.e.). Obviously she thinks that every tree, dog and guy is just wating for the chance of his life to jump with her into her tent.  Thats all I see in this lines. Everything other she could do later.
Hoping that the own love will enjoy sex with another person goes against all usual human instincts. I´m saving his and my life with this decision. Nothing more, it´s bad enough.


Like a capital operation it´s nothing I feel guilty about to ask him for, because he could not  l i k e it.^^
Especially when I give up a part of my heart as an organ donor.


Yeah, I know that it´s the only possibility to stay together. But loosing a hand or survive doesn´t make loosing hand forcibly more enjoyable.


Thank you for testing ejoslin! Perhaps the child dialogues comes up, when the approvement is too low or something like that.


And yes, I will be missing the tent-scene but.. I prefer to let sleep a man with Morrigan instead of letting MY PC´s man sleep with Morrigan. This way I don´t have to think at all about what he thinks when the candle goes out.


Edit: The bisexual is reserved for my Daelish wich is next character planned.  I really like Zevran and in his own way he is more trustful than Alistair (dumping scenes) but Alistair was my current chars first love. 

Modifié par Querne, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:50 .

[nos_astra]

EatinMcRib wrote...
IIRC, he is secretly attracted to her. In one of my playthroughs when he asks about the rest of the party, I remember a reply along the lines of "You really want her, don't you..." and he gives a very weak denial, with some giggling.

Ah, I could imagine that. If there's no first love for him on the playthrough, being attracted to someone he hates isn't really far fetched. Exactly how I picture Al - and I am a big Alistair fangirl. I just don't like him being the perfect knight in shining armor.

I started over my female noble rogue for the third time (I once got to the landsmeet an deleted the character right after the dark ritual). Well, part of that because I didn't like the hairstyle *giggle* but also because it took me weeks to figure how I'd like to roleplay her. I want her to be pragmatic and determined to do good things but without the urge to self-deny or self-sacrifice herself or her love. She invited Dairren for a little action during the origin story. (Alistair approves if you have lickes a lamppost, you know.) She'll be doing questionable things, she'll never refuse a reward (she doesn't forcce it though) and she'll fall for Alistair (of course) and end up his queen. She'll harden Alistair, so he will want to be king - and if I feel like they'll have a threesome with Isabella. She'll be Morrigan's friend. She'll do the dark ritual WITHOUT the persuasion check (I tested it,
doesn't mean Alistair will refuse, the discussion will only be longer). The ending will be satisfying ... and it comes at a cost (demon baby luring in the dark to bring doom!). I like that.

If I play a head-in-the-clouds character, all pink bunnies and flowers and stuff, she won't romance anyyone (if I wanted to save her precious innocence) or she'll romance (unhardened) Al and try to sacrifice herself (which will end up in reluctant would-be-king Al sacrificing himself). Yay! Tragic, but that's what you get if you don't learn the hard lessons on the way. Life is no pony farm!

And then there is my Dalish archer (going for Zevran, he'll be delighted to get to romance a Dalish). Ah, so many possibilites.

Querne wrote...
Sorry, but I don´t see any kindness in it.  Morrigan is very selfish
and very, very selfconfidental about her sexual attraction what can be
seen in many dialogues (teasing Sten lines f.e.). Obviously she thinks
that every tree, dog and guy is just wating for the chance of his
life to jump with her into her tent.  Thats all I see in this lines.
Everything other she could do later.
Hoping that the own love will
enjoy sex with another person goes against all usual human instincts.
I´m saving his and my life with this decision. Nothing more, it´s bad
enough.

Depends on what you want to believe. If you befriend Morrigan you might see her a little different. Of course selfish still (that doesn't go away) but there's more to her. I prefer to think that if she has a bond of friendship (or love) with the PC she'll persue her plans (not outright evil but not good either) but she'll miss your PC and your party - probably even Alistair - after she leaves.

It's just a question of perspective. But I see that you may have a hard time when you're stuck with your first character and the poor thing is not having her happily ever after ending. Some never get over it, I understand. Good for me that my first PC was only a test on PS3 - an elven mage. Ha! I'm so lucky that I love to spoil myself. ;-)

Modifié par klarabella, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:52 .

[ejoslin]

Querne wrote...


Thank you for testing ejoslin! Perhaps the child dialogues comes up, when the approvement is too low or something like that.

Even if your approval is at 99 love, he will refuse to marry your character because of children, yet at 100 friendly (never romanced), he will marry your character.  After the landsmeet, no matter what, you can tell him that you plan to try to have an heir with someone else.  If he's romancing the PC, he gets REALLY ticked over that (Alistair disapproves -15) so I'm sure he shares the Ali fangirls feelings on the ritual!  He is ok with it if you two are just friends (-5, but who doesn't have about 5 gifts waiting up at soldier's peak for him?).