325 réponses à ce sujet

[xtorma]

Aesieru wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Ok you have convinced me that the reapers a good guys, now convince me they are smart, because the way they went about getting to the citadel was just extremley stupid. I am a limited organic who still believes it's impossible for anything with mass to break the light barrier, yet i can come up with a better plan than the reapers did.

I mean all soverign had to do was interface with the citadel for a few minutes to call all the other reapers in. why the hell go through all that other stuff.

contact the council , make nice. toss them some technology to convince them you are advanced. say you want to share. ask to be allowed to interface with the citadel call in the other reapers. end of story.

If you want it to be dramatic, send in the collectors have them harvest a few colonies, then storm in and in a huge display destroy the collectors save a few colonies, become the galactic hero , go to the citadel to get your medal, call in the rest of the reapers and bingo, done deal.

Because their way has worked for millions of years or longer, and logically after they do kill us all and reset the galaxy and repair the Citadel and all that jazz, they will set up a new vanguard and potentially a few more failsafes.

Also, they used to just remotely send a signal but the Protheans blocked that secretly, now this time Sovereign ran into that problem and was figuring out a way to deal with the problem.

So he had saren find the conduit? instead of just having him walk in with his spectre status thats his solution? It's stooooooopid. He was an idiot.

Saren could have just told the council he found an ancient operational spaceship. where were they bringing the becon to from eden prime, and why? well to the citadel, because that is where they had the best labs to study it. they said as much. once soverign was in and started broadcasting , it would have only been a matter of time before saren could have just walked in and given him control.

[Aesieru]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Actually they are not.

It more like Organics are enslaved to serve the Reapers by becoming one of them, which follow a guideline protocol that is imbedded in each Reaper and is simply maintained by the Guardian. According to the Guardian dialog, it only really has an abort button and a "DONT FORGET TO DO THIS" button.

Organic minds are used to create the reaper. The protocol in each reaper is basically just the guardians control over them.  It's why in the ending when Shepard asks if he'd have control over the reapers, he says "Yes". As in absolute control. Unyielding obedience. They cannot in any form go against the Guardian. Which is enslavement. We don't actually know if the reapers want to do this or would do this on their own. They have no choice in the matter.

The Guardian never indicates absolute control, it is wild speculation and misinterpretation to assume that or consider that based on the information presented and the dialog and independence of Harbinger and Sovereign and assumedly every other Reaper.

[LOLandStuff]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Good stuff! See, you answererd your own question and showed why both options are equal risk then.

Then can you imagine how many times the Reapers have to come to the Galaxy because there's some ****** who thinks he's smarter than anyone and unleashes his idiocy all over the Galaxy. Then the next guy comes up who think his way better than the previous one and so on.
The Reapers won't even need to leave. They'll have to sit around and monitor everyone closely because no one will ever listen and think they're better and can't possibly make a mistake.

If some ****** decided to do AI research, all the reapers need to do is send out an indoctrinated person like Saren to take out the target. No need to send a fleet to do one mans job.

Then let's say something like Project Overlord happens and there isn't a Shepard around. Then what?

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 04 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[Aesieru]

xtorma wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Ok you have convinced me that the reapers a good guys, now convince me they are smart, because the way they went about getting to the citadel was just extremley stupid. I am a limited organic who still believes it's impossible for anything with mass to break the light barrier, yet i can come up with a better plan than the reapers did.

I mean all soverign had to do was interface with the citadel for a few minutes to call all the other reapers in. why the hell go through all that other stuff.

contact the council , make nice. toss them some technology to convince them you are advanced. say you want to share. ask to be allowed to interface with the citadel call in the other reapers. end of story.

If you want it to be dramatic, send in the collectors have them harvest a few colonies, then storm in and in a huge display destroy the collectors save a few colonies, become the galactic hero , go to the citadel to get your medal, call in the rest of the reapers and bingo, done deal.

Because their way has worked for millions of years or longer, and logically after they do kill us all and reset the galaxy and repair the Citadel and all that jazz, they will set up a new vanguard and potentially a few more failsafes.

Also, they used to just remotely send a signal but the Protheans blocked that secretly, now this time Sovereign ran into that problem and was figuring out a way to deal with the problem.

So he had saren find the conduit? instead of just having him walk in with his spectre status thats his solution? It's stooooooopid. He was an idiot.

Saren could have just told the council he found an ancient operational spaceship. where were they bringing the becon to from eden prime, and why? well to the citadel, because that is where they had the best labs to study it. they said as much. once soverign was in and started broadcasting , it would have only been a matter of time before saren could have just walked in and given him control.

What is Saren going to do? Walk in and start fiddling with the master control? One, he doesn't know where it is, and if the Reapers tell him, he doesn't have a means to find out what the Protheans did to it. If he somehow gets a master reboot disc from the Reapers, who's going to let him go into the Citadel Tower and start messing with things, that's not his duty. Also, they had no idea what the Conduit even was, they had to find it first.

[WizenSlinky0]

Aesieru wrote...

The Guardian never indicates absolute control, it is wild speculation and misinterpretation to assume that or consider that based on the information presented and the dialog and independence of Harbinger and Sovereign and assumedly every other Reaper.

The system does not work without it. It is illogical to assume that something based on organic minds would not eventually form schisms.

Well, no point debating this. We aren't going to agree.

[Bentebent]

Aesieru wrote...

Prothean AI Rebellion is one we know of for certain, detailed in ME3 itself.

We saw what the Overlord Virus was doing, it was trying to escape and get into the galaxy to expand.

We saw the VI Virus was infecting everything in an attempt to protect itself from ever being turned off.

We saw the Heretic Geth killing all organics.

We see the Protestant Geth trying to build a sphere to expand their intelligence and Legion admitted they want to become more intelligent which means more platforms and communal minds.

Not every AI is the same. Once you understand this, you'll understand why you're wrong.

Legion also stated the Geth did not care about organics and just wanted to be left alone, to reach enlightenment. You can read whatever you want into that but fact of the matter is, it will only be your headcannon.

[Aesieru]

Bentebent wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Prothean AI Rebellion is one we know of for certain, detailed in ME3 itself.

We saw what the Overlord Virus was doing, it was trying to escape and get into the galaxy to expand.

We saw the VI Virus was infecting everything in an attempt to protect itself from ever being turned off.

We saw the Heretic Geth killing all organics.

We see the Protestant Geth trying to build a sphere to expand their intelligence and Legion admitted they want to become more intelligent which means more platforms and communal minds.

Not every AI is the same. Once you understand this, you'll understand why you're wrong.

Legion also stated the Geth did not care about organics and just wanted to be left alone, to reach enlightenment. You can read whatever you want into that but fact of the matter is, it will only be your headcannon.

Right, and what happens after the Geth start devouring more planets and systems like they've been doing and like the planet entries have reported on a few planets near their systems, and become a threat to galactic stability because they want to "expand" or "reach enlightenment?".

[WizenSlinky0]

Bentebent wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Prothean AI Rebellion is one we know of for certain, detailed in ME3 itself.

We saw what the Overlord Virus was doing, it was trying to escape and get into the galaxy to expand.

We saw the VI Virus was infecting everything in an attempt to protect itself from ever being turned off.

We saw the Heretic Geth killing all organics.

We see the Protestant Geth trying to build a sphere to expand their intelligence and Legion admitted they want to become more intelligent which means more platforms and communal minds.

Not every AI is the same. Once you understand this, you'll understand why you're wrong.

Legion also stated the Geth did not care about organics and just wanted to be left alone, to reach enlightenment. You can read whatever you want into that but fact of the matter is, it will only be your headcannon.

Geth have never been true AI. They have a goal to reach the level of true AI. We have no way of knowing what their goal, if any, would be once they reach it.

[teh_619]

delete

Modifié par teh_619, 04 mars 2012 - 08:06 .

[ninjaNumber1]

LOLandStuff wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Good stuff! See, you answererd your own question and showed why both options are equal risk then.

Then can you imagine how many times the Reapers have to come to the Galaxy because there's some ****** who thinks he's smarter than anyone and unleashes his idiocy all over the Galaxy. Then the next guy comes up who think his way better than the previous one and so on.
The Reapers won't even need to leave. They'll have to sit around and monitor everyone closely because no one will ever listen and think they're better and can't possibly make a mistake.

If some ****** decided to do AI research, all the reapers need to do is send out an indoctrinated person like Saren to take out the target. No need to send a fleet to do one mans job.

Then let's say something like Project Overlord happens and there isn't a Shepard around. Then what?

But project overload doesn't suddenly happen. There is a build up for it. What the Vanguard would do is eliminate the process at the very start.

All these counter-examples like Overlord, Geth are not synthetics that did not exist one moment and then came in to existence the very next. At the origin of the process that came to create these things, they are very simple and have very few people involved. Hence, it only takes one indoctrinated guy like Saren to take them all out at the command of the Vanguard.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 07:57 .

[Bentebent]

Aesieru wrote...

Right, and what happens after the Geth start devouring more planets and systems like they've been doing and like the planet entries have reported on a few planets near their systems, and become a threat to galactic stability because they want to "expand" or "reach enlightenment?".

Have the Geth devoured any planets so far? Have they even tried? No? Didn't think so.

[Aesieru]

Bentebent wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Right, and what happens after the Geth start devouring more planets and systems like they've been doing and like the planet entries have reported on a few planets near their systems, and become a threat to galactic stability because they want to "expand" or "reach enlightenment?".

Have the Geth devoured any planets so far? Have they even tried? No? Didn't think so.

Near Haestrom, and a few others, yes.

[Hexxys]

When Sovereign said that the reapers were beyond organic comprehension, he meant to say that reapers are so incomprehensibly stupid that their intentions wouldn't make sense to anyone.

Terrible ending is terrible.

[Aesieru]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Good stuff! See, you answererd your own question and showed why both options are equal risk then.

Then can you imagine how many times the Reapers have to come to the Galaxy because there's some ****** who thinks he's smarter than anyone and unleashes his idiocy all over the Galaxy. Then the next guy comes up who think his way better than the previous one and so on.
The Reapers won't even need to leave. They'll have to sit around and monitor everyone closely because no one will ever listen and think they're better and can't possibly make a mistake.

If some ****** decided to do AI research, all the reapers need to do is send out an indoctrinated person like Saren to take out the target. No need to send a fleet to do one mans job.

Then let's say something like Project Overlord happens and there isn't a Shepard around. Then what?

But project overload doesn't suddenly happen. There is a build up for it. What the Vanguard would do is eliminate the process at the very start.

All these counter-examples like Overlord, Geth are not synthetics that did not exist one moment and then came in to existence the very next. At the origin of the process that came to create these things, they are very simple and have very few people involved. Hence, it only takes one indoctrinated guy like Saren to take them all out at the command of the Vanguard.

Project Overlord was SECRET.

No idea how anyone is gonna find it out until it's too late or a distress call comes.

[magnuskn]

Aside from the fact that the Reapers were only monitoring this galaxy. If they were thinking on such a vastly colossal scale, they would have needed to send Reapers to other galaxies, too, so that the synthetic threat couldn't come from outside their own "jurisdiction".

Modifié par magnuskn, 04 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[Aesieru]

Hexxys wrote...

When Sovereign said that the reapers were beyond organic comprehension, he meant to say that reapers are so incomprehensibly stupid that their intentions wouldn't make sense to anyone.

Terrible ending is terrible.

Congratulations on joining a thread, posting something without any knowledge of anything, and then insulting it without even reading any of the posts disproving you.

You are terribly stupid.

The Reapers should just flay you alive.

[Bentebent]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Geth have never been true AI. They have a goal to reach the level of true AI. We have no way of knowing what their goal, if any, would be once they reach it.

Which, in line with the actual theory of the technological singularity, would make the whole damn plot moot. It's an event horizon, there is no way of knowing what's going to happen afterwards and to blindly assume it's going to mean the destruction of all organic life is to say the least ridiculous.

[ninjaNumber1]

Hexxys wrote...

When Sovereign said that the reapers were beyond organic comprehension, he meant to say that reapers are so incomprehensibly stupid that their intentions wouldn't make sense to anyone.

Terrible ending is terrible.

LOOOOOOOOOL! Good one!

That should have been the queue to abandon the series eh haha.

[Bentebent]

Aesieru wrote...

Near Haestrom, and a few others, yes.

You're actually saying they depleted these planets? Bull**** on a whole new level.

[Aesieru]

Bentebent wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Near Haestrom, and a few others, yes.

You're actually saying they depleted these planets? Bull**** on a whole new level.

Based on their own damn planet information descriptions, YES.

Modifié par Aesieru, 04 mars 2012 - 08:02 .

[ninjaNumber1]

Aesieru wrote...

Hexxys wrote...

When Sovereign said that the reapers were beyond organic comprehension, he meant to say that reapers are so incomprehensibly stupid that their intentions wouldn't make sense to anyone.

Terrible ending is terrible.

Congratulations on joining a thread, posting something without any knowledge of anything, and then insulting it without even reading any of the posts disproving you.

You are terribly stupid.

The Reapers should just flay you alive.

Come on dude, the guy has a point. You are doing an admirable job trying to plug holes. But if you step back and take a look at the story you are spinning, its implausible. It plugs the hole but its improbable given what we know in the game.

So as admirable as the plugs are, the Mass Effect 3 ending fails as a narrative because it requires you to believe in a highly implausible set of scenarios for it to be logically consistent. Usually in terms of a movie, this is when you say the movie was a fail. I think the same applies in terms of narrative to Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 08:03 .

[Aesieru]

Bentebent wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Geth have never been true AI. They have a goal to reach the level of true AI. We have no way of knowing what their goal, if any, would be once they reach it.

Which, in line with the actual theory of the technological singularity, would make the whole damn plot moot. It's an event horizon, there is no way of knowing what's going to happen afterwards and to blindly assume it's going to mean the destruction of all organic life is to say the least ridiculous.

Unless the Reapers have a precedent and have seen near-extinctions occur, such as when they were created or after, and so they are acting on PRECEDENT.

[LOLandStuff]

So the Galaxy ends up with a Big Brother watching your every move.
Living in constant paranoia that spies are everywhere.

[WizenSlinky0]

Bentebent wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Geth have never been true AI. They have a goal to reach the level of true AI. We have no way of knowing what their goal, if any, would be once they reach it.

Which, in line with the actual theory of the technological singularity, would make the whole damn plot moot. It's an event horizon, there is no way of knowing what's going to happen afterwards and to blindly assume it's going to mean the destruction of all organic life is to say the least ridiculous.

Even if the geth don't another AI may. We'll keep developing them and evolving them regardless of how dangerous we know it is. Because they are useful and key to our goal to computerize as many tasks as possible.

The reapers aren't reaping us because the geth were created. They are doing it because we're reached a point where our technology allows us to cause a technological singularity. The hostility of said AI's or VI's or Synthetics is irrelevent.

Whoever set up the cycle chose the lesser of two evils, most likely due to a very close call. It was all advanced organics or all organic life on any planet in any system everywhere from the lowliest bacteria to the most advanced being. It is not the best solution. And the guardians existance suggests to me it was never meant to be permanent. The cycle allows for the possibility of a race reaching the point where they will find the guardian. At that point, they are given a choice, and organics are once again allowed to dictate their own fate. It's highly probable the guardian you meet is not the first. It's possible several races have made this decision before Shepard and all decided to continue the cycle.

[ninjaNumber1]

LOLandStuff wrote...

So the Galaxy ends up with a Big Brother watching your every move.
Living in constant paranoia that spies are everywhere.

You will probably never know that someone is watching....

Also, keep in mind, we are not arguing here about this from the perspective of the organics. We are looking at this from the reaper perspevtice. The two alterntaives from the reaper perspective is

1) be a big brother
2) forcefully wipe out organics every 50 k years while also being a big brother

I think (1) seems more attractive, don't you think?

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 08:06 .