325 réponses à ce sujet

[teh_619]

Aesieru I'd be quite thrilled for you to respond to this:

Ok it's really simple.
1)Reapers are acting on the odd assumption that civs will no matter what destroy themselves with AI.

Which implies that every civlization to come WILL evolve the same way.
Which is downright ridiculous. There's always a chance of course. But there's always a chance they will not.

2) What's the point of preserving organic life if you think they're going to destroy themselves in the long run? How's that "the greater good"? It's the saddest thing to NOT let organic life evolve just because you THINK it will evolve wrongly.

3)If you're trying to help sentient life, treat them as sentient life. Not bacteria. Letting them be AWARE of what's happening, the risks that will come, the responsibilities they have.
Let them be aware of the reasons you're destroying them.

4) Bioware didn't think it through and it shows. Reapers are not smart. They do what they're programmed to do without taking in account the chance that civilizations will break through and learn and adapt.

I'm personally a sucker for sad endings. I prayed for Shepard to die to prove a point.
I cannot just take this ending though. Too many ASSUMPTIONS without reasoning.

And one thing that I seem to have missed. What kind of threat are Reapers sensing this time?
Do they have a reason to come now and destroy humanity and the other people or just do this every 50.000 NO QUESTIONS ASKED.


edit: and if anything, Legion is a clear proof that AI may NOT want to seek the destruction of their creators.
Why aren't Reapers taking this into account?

[Bentebent]

Aesieru wrote...

Based on their own damn planet information descriptions, YES.

No? Doesn't say in any of the descriptions around Haestrom that the Geth have depleted them. Legion even states that they act as caretakers of the old worlds in case the Quarians decide to return. They get their resources from asteroids instead.

[JimiShep]

Aesieru wrote...

Turel11234 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Turel, do you realize how many times I have posted that exact explanation in simpler and simpler forms?

I feel you man...
Did you see my mega wall'o text post?
Honestly, it seems to me that either people are to narrowminded to understand the scale of the problem and the intricacies of reapers solution or....
...or they just want to be negative for sake of being negative because it ain't what they were expecting.

No what happens is this:

A random guy or girl comes to the forum because they saw or heard or know about the possible ending or something about the reapers, they disagree, they don't look at the lore, the codex, the games, or anything, they misinterpret everything, they insult it and say "HAH THAT STUPID", and then they ask questions about things that aren't even actually factual. Then it's a bad ending  / game / whatever / preorder cancelled situation because they just don't think it's good, which is fine, but then they force that on everyone else and then the other out of context people come by and start and blah blah blah.

Also, people come to threads, post something, and never read any of the other posts.

This is excatly what happens!

I have read this entire thread and I am completely shocked that people cannot wrap their heads around this! It's acutally a brilliant story...

I garantee you most of the people arguing against the endings either had their own thoughts on how this GAME!! would end or can't understand HOW TRUELY BIG a tech singularity would be!

[ninjaNumber1]

Aesieru wrote...

Unless the Reapers have a precedent and have seen near-extinctions occur, such as when they were created or after, and so they are acting on PRECEDENT.

I'd also like to hear your answer to this which I posted earlier.

Consider the two options

1) Wipe out all synthetic life every cycle or when awakened by Vanguard
2) Wipe out all organic life every cycle or when awakened by Vanguard

Now
with respect to preserving organic life, its clear that (2) is
preferrable. So what people on this forum try to say is that (2) is low
risk. Why? They say that the AI might be too advanced when the reapers
come in the case of option (1).

But that risk exists even with
respect to organics. It is possible that the organics are far advanced
than reapers when they come. Hence there is no reason to think (2) is
low risk compared to (1). The observant Vanguard would act as a fail safe in either option to make the risk equal.

Now
unless you can tell me a reason why (1) is higher risk than (2), either
way you cut it, there is a logical inconsistency in following (2) over
(1).

Do you see what I mean?

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 08:07 .

[luzburg]

well i like the ending exept i liked the little blue babies idea and it i seems like therse no chanse of that.
still it is almost impossible to come up with a story that dosent rip stuff from other storys

Modifié par luzburg, 04 mars 2012 - 08:08 .

[mi55ion]

here's my two cents worth..

i have no clue what the actual ending is but from reading everything in this thread i can surmise the following from the story so far told in 1 and 2 + my addition to complete it as a whole

> at some earlier point in the galactic history an intelligent life formed, developed and created AI's, most likely as tools, who would then by their very nature be programmed to protect all organic life.

> as the said intelligent civilisation probably self destructed, AI's remain with a said program and opted to fulfil it

> any future civilisations who would developed along the same technological path were thus doomed to self destruct and probably take any other not so developed civilisations with them, through exploitation and so forth.

> thus reapers preserve the essence of the civilisations they destroy to keep a record of that civilisation yet destroy them before they could do more damage and leave all other life who does not use "mass effect" technology separate.
This is where the citadel comes in, any species that inhabits citadel is developing along the path which in reapers logical sense is doomed. All informations on all the planets where the civilisations uses their technology would be stored there as a sort of hub thus all those planets would be harvested and all life there would be extinguished.

> the only conclusion is that the reapers complete their task more or less completely, small pockets of current civilisations may still remain in various locations.

this rounds up cycle X and a new one begins, leading me to believe if a new space fairing civilisation rises yet does so along a different path, never stepping foot on a citadel would in theory not become a victim of the reaper's cleansing for they now use a different technological path which does not doom them to destruction. This circumvents the logic used for every reaper cycle so far and they would leave such a civilisation be.

it is a "doomed from the start" scenario yet it is the only valid one too. No civilisation who simply stole the technology from another ancient race without fully understanding it could be aware of the consequences, nor would they be able to defend themselves for their natural advancement would have ceased and they would simply become parasites on the technology discovered without any understanding of it thus possibly even creating a race of AI's who would destroy all life, not just the parasitic one.

I see reapers as a form of guardian to ensure the life continues until such time when a "smart and truly responsible" civilisation takes to the stars and does so without a threat to the rest of the galaxy.

Edit > just consider what Salarians did, they used Krogans to win a war and then gave them access to the techonology they were not ready to have, thus doomed Krogans to take a path of becoming a pest and danger to all planets in the galaxy, which is why they neutered them so to speak, to minimise the destruction which Salarians themselves caused. kind of a Reaper story in miniature. Make 1 in 1000 births possible to keep Krogan in check, or Kill off civilisations which base their technology on the Citadel to keep a particular path of technological advancement in check.

Modifié par mi55ion, 04 mars 2012 - 08:18 .

[Balek-Vriege]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Again not true.  Reapers are organic and synthetic, built from the DNA and minds of millions, if not billions of individuals.  They are super intelligences limited by the Guardian, which is limited by it's core programming and the constraints of the cycles.  There is no logical inconistency when you acknowledge those facts.  Reapers are not runaway intelligences.  They do not consume at extremely quick rates (they actually sit around until they're called upon to Reap).  In essence the Reapers are tools that do something horrible for the "greater good," controlling Galactic progress in order to keep organic life and the natural order of things from being completely wiped out. 

Sigh, the logical inconsistency is there to see broski.

All you need to do is consider the two options

1) Wipe out all synthetic life every cycle or when awakened by Vanguard
2) Wipe out all organic life every cycle or when awakened by Vanguard

Now with respect to preserving organic life, its clear that (2) is preferrable. So what people on this forum try to say is that (2) is low risk. Why? They say that the AI might be too advanced when the reapers come in the case of option (1).

But that risk exists even with respect to organics. It is possible that the organics are far advanced than reapers when they come. Hence there is no reason to think (2) is low risk compared to (1). The observant Vanguard would act as a fail safe in either option to make the risk equal.

Now unless you can tell me a reason why (1) is higher risk than (2), either way you cut it, there is a logical inconsistency in following (2) over (1).

Do you see that?

Yes, but you're missing two points.  Option 2 is lower risk because knowledge of Reaper interloping is unknown.  There is nothing left to say "the Reapers were here, they wipe of organic life every 50K years" until at least the Protheans.  The other point is that no one is left in a position to really make an AI for 50K years when you wipe out organics and any AI.  No one usually knows about the Reapers and Galactic knowledge/government is kept in the Citadel. AI and technological advancement is done in the open and races feel confortable relying on Reaper technology when they think the race is long since dead.

When you choose option 1 organics do have knowledge of the Reapers and technology is not erased or reset.  Galactic races know the Reapers were there and could cause them problems.  They either distrust or begin researching the relays and the Citadel more closely (if the Citadel and/or relays even exists).  Races would also want to research AI for whatever reason would do so off the charts, making it harder and harder.

Even with option 2 the risk of failure is bound to happen (Shepard), but option 1 failure is bound to happen much sooner than 37 million years.  Option 1 is also what is already in place more or less with the Council.  How has that worked out in preventing Cerberus, Quarians and others from researching and creating AI intentionally or unintentionally?

You might as well go solely with option 2, killing organics without them even knowing about you.  It's quite possible that entire races never even knew they were being wiped out over centuries until a Reaper Fleet showed up decades after the Relays going offline.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 04 mars 2012 - 08:12 .

[ninjaNumber1]

JimiShep wrote...

This is excatly what happens!

I have read this entire thread and I am completely shocked that people cannot wrap their heads around this! It's acutally a brilliant story...

I garantee you most of the people arguing against the endings either had their own thoughts on how this GAME!! would end or can't understand HOW TRUELY BIG a tech singularity would be!

I couldn't care less if EVERYONE died. The problem here is not with what type of ending we would have. It is with having a logically consistent ending which does not require you to believe in implausible elements.

[LOLandStuff]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

So the Galaxy ends up with a Big Brother watching your every move.
Living in constant paranoia that spies are everywhere.

You will probably never know that someone is watching....

Also, keep in mind, we are not arguing here about this from the perspective of the organics. We are looking at this from the reaper perspevtice. The two alterntaives from the reaper perspective is

1) be a big brother
2) forcefully wipe out organics every 50 k years while also being a big brother

I think (1) seems more attractive, don't you think?

So, I won't know someone is watching me then I will go do some stupid experiment in secret...and then I'm dead.
Then when secret organizations see their people die for no apparent reason, they'll start wondering.
But
I wouldn't have to worry about it because maybe Big Brother will show
up telling me I've been doing naughty things and that I should feel
ashamed.
No problem there. I'll just dismiss their claims as being
ridiculous and next time I'll be more cautious and go in the bowels of a
planet to resume my experiments.

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 04 mars 2012 - 08:11 .

[xtorma]

Aesieru wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Ok you have convinced me that the reapers a good guys, now convince me they are smart, because the way they went about getting to the citadel was just extremley stupid. I am a limited organic who still believes it's impossible for anything with mass to break the light barrier, yet i can come up with a better plan than the reapers did.

I mean all soverign had to do was interface with the citadel for a few minutes to call all the other reapers in. why the hell go through all that other stuff.

contact the council , make nice. toss them some technology to convince them you are advanced. say you want to share. ask to be allowed to interface with the citadel call in the other reapers. end of story.

If you want it to be dramatic, send in the collectors have them harvest a few colonies, then storm in and in a huge display destroy the collectors save a few colonies, become the galactic hero , go to the citadel to get your medal, call in the rest of the reapers and bingo, done deal.

Because their way has worked for millions of years or longer, and logically after they do kill us all and reset the galaxy and repair the Citadel and all that jazz, they will set up a new vanguard and potentially a few more failsafes.

Also, they used to just remotely send a signal but the Protheans blocked that secretly, now this time Sovereign ran into that problem and was figuring out a way to deal with the problem.

So he had saren find the conduit? instead of just having him walk in with his spectre status thats his solution? It's stooooooopid. He was an idiot.

Saren could have just told the council he found an ancient operational spaceship. where were they bringing the becon to from eden prime, and why? well to the citadel, because that is where they had the best labs to study it. they said as much. once soverign was in and started broadcasting , it would have only been a matter of time before saren could have just walked in and given him control.

What is Saren going to do? Walk in and start fiddling with the master control? One, he doesn't know where it is, and if the Reapers tell him, he doesn't have a means to find out what the Protheans did to it. If he somehow gets a master reboot disc from the Reapers, who's going to let him go into the Citadel Tower and start messing with things, that's not his duty. Also, they had no idea what the Conduit even was, they had to find it first.

Well with soverign attached to the citadel, they would have all eventually been indoctrinated. all soverign had to do was bide his time, play nice and let the indoctination process take place. Unless he did not have knowledge of his own technology , he could have figured out the problem and corrected it. if he couldn't do it and still needed to find the conduit , he would of had a much easier time of it if he controlled the citadel.

I mean what was up with me2? why start building a new reaper before you had control of the citadel? all the reapers had to do was lay low, while they traveled here. it took what 2 years and 2 months for them to get here, even with the alpha relay destroyed.

[ninjaNumber1]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Yes, but you're missing two points.  Option 2 is lower risk because knowledge of Reaper interloping is unknown.  There is nothing left to say "the Reapers were here, they wipe of organic life every 50K years" until at least the Protheans.  The other point is that no one is left in a position to really make an AI for 50K years when you wipe out organics and any AI.  No one usually knows about the Reapers and Galactic knowledge/government is kept in the Citadel. AI and technological advancement is done in the open and races feel confortable relying on Reaper technology when they think the race is long since dead.

When you choose option 1 organics do have knowledge of the Reapers and technology is not erased or reset.  Galactic races know the Reapers were there and could cause them problems.  They either distrust or begin researching the relays and the Citadel more closely (if the Citadel and relays even exists).  Races would me also want to research AI for whatever reason would do so off the charts, making it harder and harder.

Even with option 2 the risk of failure is bound to happen (Shepard), but option 1 failure is bound to happen much sooner than 37 million years.  Option 1 is also what is already in place more or less with the Council.  How has that worked out in preventing Cerberus, Quarians and others from researching and creating AI intentionally or unintentionally?

You might as well go solely with option 2, killing organics without them even knowing about you.  It's quite possible that entire races never even knew they were being wiped out over centuries until a Reaper Fleet showed up decades after the Relays going offline.

See, it still doesn't make sense. Both problems present in either options is mitigated by the presence of the Vanguard.

If the reaper threat is known and any research is initiated to coutner it, the Vanguard gets to know it and can intervene using means such as Saren or Kai Lang and eliminate these threats at the root.

The risks are equalled by the presence of the Vanguard. If it was absent in the equation, I agree with you. But as the game would have it, he plays a major role.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 08:13 .

[ninjaNumber1]

LOLandStuff wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

So the Galaxy ends up with a Big Brother watching your every move.
Living in constant paranoia that spies are everywhere.

You will probably never know that someone is watching....

Also, keep in mind, we are not arguing here about this from the perspective of the organics. We are looking at this from the reaper perspevtice. The two alterntaives from the reaper perspective is

1) be a big brother
2) forcefully wipe out organics every 50 k years while also being a big brother

I think (1) seems more attractive, don't you think?

So, I won't know someone is watching me then I will go do some stupid experiment in secret...and then I'm dead.
Then when secret organizations see their people die for no apparent reason, they'll start wondering.
But
I wouldn't have to worry about it because maybe Big Brother will show
up telling me I've been doing naughty things and that I should feel
ashamed.
No problem there. I'll just dismiss their claims as being
ridiculous and next time I'll be more cautious and go in the bowels of a
planet to resume my experiments.

You are making the error of shifting perspectives here. What organics think is not much relevance for anyone. Also, organizations start small. So we are looking at the entire organizations being eradicated if required.

So from a reaper perspective, its killing entire races vs. elimination of you and possibly a few others routinely. It seems more efficient. What you are doing is looking at it from an organic perspective.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 08:15 .

[humes spork]

Aesieru wrote...

It's an Imperative of all synthetic's and thus the Geth, because it is their nature to want to grow more intelligent, hence the artificial intelligences creation or rebellion or purpose of independence.

Do the geth have choice or not? You contradict yourself by saying the geth choose to expand but then say they have an imperative to expand. If they have choice, technological singularity is not inevitable. If they don't, technological singularity is inevitable. Which is it?

And, the Geth strip-mining? That was the heretics, not the baseline Geth.

What is Saren going to do? Walk in and start fiddling with the master control? One, he doesn't know where it is, and if the Reapers tell him, he doesn't have a means to find out what the Protheans did to it. If he somehow gets a master reboot disc from the Reapers, who's going to let him go into the Citadel Tower and start messing with things, that's not his duty. Also, they had no idea what the Conduit even was, they had to find it first. 

Sovereign knew. Sovereign was going to have Saren walk into the Citadel tower without giving him the information he needed to do his job first?

The purpose of the Citadel tower console is that it is a master control. The entire purpose of Saren was to go to the Citadel tower in lieu of the Keepers who failed to respond to the Citadel's signal.

For Saren to have found out what the Protheans did, he would have had to make contact with Vigil. He didn't, and didn't even look. He just went straight to the Conduit.

Saren already had posession of a Prothean beacon. From that, all he needed was the Cipher and he could have gotten that without even having launched the Geth assault that drew the Council's attention.

Furthermore, Saren was one of the, if not the most, trusted and effective Spectre. If anyone could have gotten access to the console it was him. Wouldn't have been hard -- just request a closed-session meeting with the Council in person, shoot them and activate the console. Bam, problem done.

[ninjaNumber1]

xtorma wrote...

I mean what was up with me2? why start building a new reaper before you had control of the citadel? all the reapers had to do was lay low, while they traveled here. it took what 2 years and 2 months for them to get here, even with the alpha relay destroyed.

Yea, for a 'highly advanced super intelligent race', they acted in pretty dumb ways if we look at it in light of ME3.

[JimiShep]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...

This is excatly what happens!

I have read this entire thread and I am completely shocked that people cannot wrap their heads around this! It's acutally a brilliant story...

I garantee you most of the people arguing against the endings either had their own thoughts on how this GAME!! would end or can't understand HOW TRUELY BIG a tech singularity would be!

I couldn't care less if EVERYONE died. The problem here is not with what type of ending we would have. It is with having a logically consistent ending which does not require you to believe in implausible elements.

Arn't there going to be implausible elements in any story?

[Muskau]

The thing I don't understand is...

An advanced race creates a tech singularity, which they barely avoid. They create reapers to harvest their race and keep it in a synthetic ship. And then make it so that they harvest other races and turn them into ships every 50,000 years when they get too advanced. Doesn't this strike you as arrogant from the outset?

Second, they leave a program on Citadel to give you options to change the 50,000 year cycle. But it's only through a sheer fluke that the Protheans send a message to you that allows you to eventually talk to the Guardian. How many millions of years has this been going on without any other races access to the Guardian?

Thirdly, Synthesis is the only logical outcome, since 'apparently' Tech singularity is inevitable. Why didn't guardian just activate it when it knew?

Forth, if Tech singularity is inevitable, why hasn't the universe been eaten up by one of the other galaxies that have life and could have developed tech singularities?

Fifth, the Tech singularity outcome is assuming that at some point after achieving 'conciousness' 'thought' that the singularity will have the motivations of a biotic creature, or even have motivations at all. Perhaps when reaching godlike levels of intelligence it will leave the universe, destroy itself, or simply remain where it is. (But since ME tends to say 'AI=BAD' I guess not')

PS: someone said that the Geth is harvesting all resources in the quarian system, and that is obvious, it is being put towards the Dyson sphere.

[Balek-Vriege]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

See, it still doesn't make sense. Both problems present in either options is mitigated by the presence of the Vanguard.

If the reaper threat is known and any research is initiated to coutner it, the Vanguard gets to know it and can intervene using means such as Saren or Kai Lang.

The risks are equalled by the presence of the Vanguard. If it was absent in the equation, I agree with you. But as the game would have it, he plays a major role.

The Vanguard is not all knowing and usually stays well hidden until the exact time of Citadel activation.  That means no one knows about the Reapers and have no reason to hide their technological advancement or not depend on tech floating around the galaxy.  They fall into the trap easily.  I'm not even sure the Vanguard had to fly to the Citadel for that Prothean intervention.  It would send a signal to the citadel and open its relay to allow the Reaper fleet to invade and disable the relays.

The Vanguard would have no need to do such a thing if it even exists in your scenario, because the presence of the Reapers is already known.  Then for reasons I stated earlier, progress would be hidden from the Reapers/Reaper replacements.  Also Reapers need millions of organics for construction.   You would then not have a Reaper fleet and instead would have a replacement fleet that's probably not a synthetic/organic hybrid of tech.  That alone could cause problems in the Mass Effect universe when it comes to AI and battling the "replacement reapers."   Unless Reapers still killed millions of people or had "volunteers" by the millions.  I don't think too many races would be happy with that.

However, the fact that Shepard is standing talking to the Guardian shows killing all organics plan is now debunked.  Thus the need for a new solution/alternative.

[Aesieru]

[quote]teh_619 wrote...

Aesieru I'd be quite thrilled for you to respond to this:

Ok it's really simple.
1)Reapers are acting on the odd assumption that civs will no matter what destroy themselves with AI.

Which implies that every civlization to come WILL evolve the same way.
Which is downright ridiculous. There's always a chance of course. But there's always a chance they will not.

2) What's the point of preserving organic life if you think they're going to destroy themselves in the long run? How's that "the greater good"? It's the saddest thing to NOT let organic life evolve just because you THINK it will evolve wrongly.

3)If you're trying to help sentient life, treat them as sentient life. Not bacteria. Letting them be AWARE of what's happening, the risks that will come, the responsibilities they have.
Let them be aware of the reasons you're destroying them.

4) Bioware didn't think it through and it shows. Reapers are not smart. They do what they're programmed to do without taking in account the chance that civilizations will break through and learn and adapt.

I'm personally a sucker for sad endings. I prayed for Shepard to die to prove a point.
I cannot just take this ending though. Too many ASSUMPTIONS without reasoning.

And one thing that I seem to have missed. What kind of threat are Reapers sensing this time?
Do they have a reason to come now and destroy humanity and the other people or just do this every 50.000 NO QUESTIONS ASKED.


edit: and if anything, Legion is a clear proof that AI may NOT want to seek the destruction of their creators.
Why aren't Reapers taking this into account?[/quote]

1.

Ok it's really simple.
1)Reapers are acting on the odd assumption that civs will no matter what destroy themselves with AI.

Which implies that every civlization to come WILL evolve the same way.
Which is downright ridiculous. There's always a chance of course. But there's always a chance they will not. 

--- Correct.

2.

2) What's the point of preserving organic life if you think they're going to destroy themselves in the long run? How's that "the greater good"? It's the saddest thing to NOT let organic life evolve just because you THINK it will evolve wrongly. 

--- The Vanguard determines when they need to come, if the threat of AI is there they will come sooner if it isn't they will logically not come. Precedent from numerous other reapings far before Humanity was even out of the primordial muck would have proven that these AI rebellions do occur, such as the Protheans proved and such as you'll learn when you play ME3 if you pay attention or come across that mission or lore entry.

--- They preserve the organic species as a Reaper so that the civilization will not be destroyed, kind of like a memorial. They essentially are advancing a species or race to their own capability and then giving it the duty of helping to protect the galaxy. They are not evil or good, they are merely the caretakers cleaning and repairing the galaxy and not trying to waste anything.

3.

3)If you're trying to help sentient life, treat them as sentient life. Not bacteria. Letting them be AWARE of what's happening, the risks that will come, the responsibilities they have.
Let them be aware of the reasons you're destroying them. 

--- Giving anyone indication that they will be destroyed if something doesn't happen will prepare them better to unite against the Reapers and potentially thwart them which would leave no defense against the Technological Singularity. Also, it would possibly lead to alliances against the Reapers, or more advanced technology, or forcing AI studies to be more secretive and thus less able to be determined. Also, as people age or races advance or grow older they forget or become ignorant to old history.

4.

4) Bioware didn't think it through and it shows. Reapers are not smart. They do what they're programmed to do without taking in account the chance that civilizations will break through and learn and adapt. 

--- They are not AI, they are synthetic-organic constructs in a protective combat and defense shell. They have too much precedent that the same thing occurs as it did with the Protheans in a terrible way.

5.

Despite all the AI virus's that have gone on since the Reapers have come?

--- The Geth. However, properly manipulated they became a tool to destroy organic races in itself, it's also potentially possible they detected something else, their duty isn't to tell us what to detect, just to wipe the slate clean.

6.

edit: and if anything, Legion is a clear proof that AI may NOT want to seek the destruction of their creators.
Why aren't Reapers taking this into account?[/quote]

--- The Geth want to expand, Legion admits this when they talk about creating their sphere so as to gain intelligence, logically, the pursuit of intelligence based on the design of the Geth will require further expansion.

[WizenSlinky0]

Muskau wrote...

The thing I don't understand is...

An advanced race creates a tech singularity, which they barely avoid. They create reapers to harvest their race and keep it in a synthetic ship. And then make it so that they harvest other races and turn them into ships every 50,000 years when they get too advanced. Doesn't this strike you as arrogant from the outset?

Second, they leave a program on Citadel to give you options to change the 50,000 year cycle. But it's only through a sheer fluke that the Protheans send a message to you that allows you to eventually talk to the Guardian. How many millions of years has this been going on without any other races access to the Guardian?

Thirdly, Synthesis is the only logical outcome, since 'apparently' Tech singularity is inevitable. Why didn't guardian just activate it when it knew?

Forth, if Tech singularity is inevitable, why hasn't the universe been eaten up by one of the other galaxies that have life and could have developed tech singularities?

Fifth, the Tech singularity outcome is assuming that at some point after achieving 'conciousness' 'thought' that the singularity will have the motivations of a biotic creature, or even have motivations at all. Perhaps when reaching godlike levels of intelligence it will leave the universe, destroy itself, or simply remain where it is. (But since ME tends to say 'AI=BAD' I guess not')

PS: someone said that the Geth is harvesting all resources in the quarian system, and that is obvious, it is being put towards the Dyson sphere.

First: Of course it's arrogant. Organic Hubris is a central point. They thought they "knew better" and had the right to make that decision for the future.

Second: My assumption is that not every race is supposed to reach the guardian. Only the brightest, strongest, etc. Basically by reaching the Guardian and solving the riddle of the reapers they earn the right to determine how to proceed from then point on.

Third: The synthesis ending requires a synthetic organic to sacrifice themselves in order to make it possible apparently. Which after the events of ME2 Shepard is one.

Fourth: My current theory is that every galaxy is under or has been under the shackles of the reapers. They are likely in a way, an extremely morbid teaching device left by the first universe spanning empire that found their fortunes turned by AI. If you subscribe to this theory it could mean we are the first to break the cycle or it could mean there are others who have learned the lesson, are still rebuilding, don't have the technology to cross galaxies, or just don't want to risk intefering with another cycle.

Fifth: The thing is AI's aren't limited by things like food, water, air, etc. So there's nothing limiting their expansion. They can build new AI's or synthetics 24/7 without stopping for sleep or nutrition. As they expand the rate at which they expand will continue to grow.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 04 mars 2012 - 08:32 .

[ninjaNumber1]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Vanguard is not all knowing and usually stays well hidden until the exact time of Citadel activation.  That means no one knows about the Reapers and have no reason to hide their technological advancement or not depend on tech floating around the galaxy.  They fall into the trap easily.  I'm not even sure the Vanguard had to fly to the Citadel for that Prothean intervention.  It would send a signal to the citadel and open its relay to allow the Reaper fleet to invade and disable the relays.

Actually in the alternate option I speak of, its highly unlikely there will ever be a need to even bring in the entire fleet. There will be indotrinated pawns from each of the races keeping things in check.

Balek-Vriege wrote...
The Vanguard would have no need to do such a thing if it even exists in your scenario, because the presence of the Reapers is already known.  Then for reasons I stated earlier, progress would be hidden from the Reapers/Reaper replacements.  Also Reapers need millions of organics for construction.   You would then not have a Reaper fleet and instead would have a replacement fleet that's probably not a synthetic/organic hybrid of tech.  That alone could cause problems in the Mass Effect universe when it comes to AI and battling the "replacement reapers."   Unless Reapers still killed millions of people or had "volunteers" by the millions.  I don't think too many races would be happy with that.

The vanguard would still act. But it will act through its pawns. If you want, we can add 'destroy all space faring tech' that might lead to the discovering the location of the Vanguard.

Balek-Vriege wrote...

However, the fact that Shepard is standing talking to the Guardian shows killing all organics plan is now debunked.  Thus the need for a new solution/alternative.

The problem rather than with the alternatives is with the premise it-self. The reapers should have been following the alternate option and not this option in the first place.

[Solduri]

doesn't the fact that we know what a tech singularity is now, show that we can comprehend what the reapers are doing and in fact make the whole sovereign talk about "you cannot comprehend" wrong?

[Balek-Vriege]

Muskau wrote...

The thing I don't understand is...

An advanced race creates a tech singularity, which they barely avoid. They create reapers to harvest their race and keep it in a synthetic ship. And then make it so that they harvest other races and turn them into ships every 50,000 years when they get too advanced. Doesn't this strike you as arrogant from the outset?

Second, they leave a program on Citadel to give you options to change the 50,000 year cycle. But it's only through a sheer fluke that the Protheans send a message to you that allows you to eventually talk to the Guardian. How many millions of years has this been going on without any other races access to the Guardian?

Thirdly, Synthesis is the only logical outcome, since 'apparently' Tech singularity is inevitable. Why didn't guardian just activate it when it knew?

Forth, if Tech singularity is inevitable, why hasn't the universe been eaten up by one of the other galaxies that have life and could have developed tech singularities?

Fifth, the Tech singularity outcome is assuming that at some point after achieving 'conciousness' 'thought' that the singularity will have the motivations of a biotic creature, or even have motivations at all. Perhaps when reaching godlike levels of intelligence it will leave the universe, destroy itself, or simply remain where it is. (But since ME tends to say 'AI=BAD' I guess not')

PS: someone said that the Geth is harvesting all resources in the quarian system, and that is obvious, it is being put towards the Dyson sphere.

Firstly:  Very, very arrogant, but it doesn't make them wrong.

Secondly:  I have tried not to read too many spoilers about the rest of the game.  However, I think the new options are not part of the original programming.  I think the options are part of the "message" you talk about.  More Prothean tinkering if you will.  There were no other options before Shepard meets the Guardian, only the plan.

Thirdly:  Totally agree.  It's done for either plot or because of the actions of Shepard and tampering with Guardian's code.

Fourthly:  Very good question in which there are only a few answers.  Either it doesn't exist, doesn't act in a grey goo manner,  bending the rules of the universe, fast space travel, time travel, wormholes etc. is hard or impossible even for a godly intelligence to figure out, it has already happened but we are a product of it or it hasn't reached us in this part of Galaxy yet in reality.  Why do we know these are the possible reasons?  Because we still exist.


Fithly:  True, but then you don't have plots with AIs being bad guys.

[ninjaNumber1]

JimiShep wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

JimiShep wrote...

This is excatly what happens!

I have read this entire thread and I am completely shocked that people cannot wrap their heads around this! It's acutally a brilliant story...

I garantee you most of the people arguing against the endings either had their own thoughts on how this GAME!! would end or can't understand HOW TRUELY BIG a tech singularity would be!

I couldn't care less if EVERYONE died. The problem here is not with what type of ending we would have. It is with having a logically consistent ending which does not require you to believe in implausible elements.

Arn't there going to be implausible elements in any story?

But it would be the number and believability of these elements that make a good story, right?

If in the movie Titanic, a huge fleet of sea planes came to the rescue of all the passengers, that would be considered a wtf moment right? I am sure people would consider the story as the most 'random' story ever.

This was something like that. Except its something that dawns on you when you think about what exactly took place. For most people, they will play the game, see the ending and probably be done with it anyway.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 08:40 .

[Muskau]

One more question. How does Synthesis stop AI's from being built? Doesn't it just make everyone like Shepard with robot parts? I'm pretty sure a Cyborg creating AI's is not different from a Human making AI.

I thought in the interview they had for ME3, they wouldn't leave us with questions about the ending.

[Balek-Vriege]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

The Vanguard is not all knowing and usually stays well hidden until the exact time of Citadel activation.  That means no one knows about the Reapers and have no reason to hide their technological advancement or not depend on tech floating around the galaxy.  They fall into the trap easily.  I'm not even sure the Vanguard had to fly to the Citadel for that Prothean intervention.  It would send a signal to the citadel and open its relay to allow the Reaper fleet to invade and disable the relays.

Actually in the alternate option I speak of, its highly unlikely there will ever be a need to even bring in the entire fleet. There will be indotrinated pawns from each of the races keeping things in check.

Balek-Vriege wrote...
The Vanguard would have no need to do such a thing if it even exists in your scenario, because the presence of the Reapers is already known.  Then for reasons I stated earlier, progress would be hidden from the Reapers/Reaper replacements.  Also Reapers need millions of organics for construction.   You would then not have a Reaper fleet and instead would have a replacement fleet that's probably not a synthetic/organic hybrid of tech.  That alone could cause problems in the Mass Effect universe when it comes to AI and battling the "replacement reapers."   Unless Reapers still killed millions of people or had "volunteers" by the millions.  I don't think too many races would be happy with that.

The vanguard would still act. But it will act through its pawns. If you want, we can add 'destroy all space faring tech' that might lead to the discovering the location of the Vanguard.

Balek-Vriege wrote...

However, the fact that Shepard is standing talking to the Guardian shows killing all organics plan is now debunked.  Thus the need for a new solution/alternative.

The problem rather than with the alternatives is with the premise it-self. The reapers should have been following the alternate option and not this option in the first place.

That assumes the indoctrinated pawns are more effective than Spectres or other government agencies at finding out plots or secret development centres.  As much as a Vanguard may be looking for evidence of AI research, there would be those trying just as hard to keep it away from it and secret.  Therefore it would become highly likely somone could devleop AI far beyond the reach of the Vanguard and that AI would then have possible knowledge of the Reapers.  That's not good.