325 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Well the way I see it if you flicked back time the chances of evolution playing out the exact same way are beyond anything I'm willing to calculate.

[ninjaNumber1]

Muskau wrote...

One more question. How does Synthesis stop AI's from being built? Doesn't it just make everyone like Shepard with robot parts? I'm pretty sure a Cyborg creating AI's is not different from a Human making AI.

I thought in the interview they had for ME3, they wouldn't leave us with questions about the ending.

Another excellenet point. Even Cyborgs would build robots.

I honestly think what happened was similar to what happened with the Mass Effect novel. The developers and writers simply didn't think matters through.

On the plus side, the game's multiplayer has been really addictively fun and the game looks and plays better. So I guess they spent their time on that. But still... could have put more thought in to their narrative I feel....

[WizenSlinky0]

Indoctrinated servants have a limited-time usefulness. Their intelligence degrades. Without the limiting factor of the reapers placed on organics they will begin to expand, and expand, and expand. Millions of massively populated worlds some of which would eventually not even be on the relay network as organics grow beyond that level of technology.

You try to track that. In civilizations that large there will ALWAYS be a way to hide your work.

And again, destroying the tech that allows us to accomplish these things is not an option. You can't destroy space-faring tech, or AI research, without killing every single organic that knows how to make it again. And you think any civilization is just going to let the reapers just waltz in and start blowing up all their tech and scientists? They'll fight back. It's an act of war. Which means the reapers risk being destroyed if they don't eliminate all resistance.

Which in that case, they might as well just wipe out all advanced species.

[LOLandStuff]

The dark energy idea was much better than the RGB junk they're giving us.

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

Aesieru I'd be quite thrilled for you to respond to this:

Ok it's really simple.
1)Reapers are acting on the odd assumption that civs will no matter what destroy themselves with AI.

Which implies that every civlization to come WILL evolve the same way.
Which is downright ridiculous. There's always a chance of course. But there's always a chance they will not.

2) What's the point of preserving organic life if you think they're going to destroy themselves in the long run? How's that "the greater good"? It's the saddest thing to NOT let organic life evolve just because you THINK it will evolve wrongly.

3)If you're trying to help sentient life, treat them as sentient life. Not bacteria. Letting them be AWARE of what's happening, the risks that will come, the responsibilities they have.
Let them be aware of the reasons you're destroying them.

4) Bioware didn't think it through and it shows. Reapers are not smart. They do what they're programmed to do without taking in account the chance that civilizations will break through and learn and adapt.

I'm personally a sucker for sad endings. I prayed for Shepard to die to prove a point.
I cannot just take this ending though. Too many ASSUMPTIONS without reasoning.

And one thing that I seem to have missed. What kind of threat are Reapers sensing this time?
Do they have a reason to come now and destroy humanity and the other people or just do this every 50.000 NO QUESTIONS ASKED.


edit: and if anything, Legion is a clear proof that AI may NOT want to seek the destruction of their creators.
Why aren't Reapers taking this into account?

1.

Ok it's really simple.
1)Reapers are acting on the odd assumption that civs will no matter what destroy themselves with AI.

Which implies that every civlization to come WILL evolve the same way.
Which is downright ridiculous. There's always a chance of course. But there's always a chance they will not. 

--- Correct.

2.

2) What's the point of preserving organic life if you think they're going to destroy themselves in the long run? How's that "the greater good"? It's the saddest thing to NOT let organic life evolve just because you THINK it will evolve wrongly. 

--- The Vanguard determines when they need to come, if the threat of AI is there they will come sooner if it isn't they will logically not come. Precedent from numerous other reapings far before Humanity was even out of the primordial muck would have proven that these AI rebellions do occur, such as the Protheans proved and such as you'll learn when you play ME3 if you pay attention or come across that mission or lore entry.

--- They preserve the organic species as a Reaper so that the civilization will not be destroyed, kind of like a memorial. They essentially are advancing a species or race to their own capability and then giving it the duty of helping to protect the galaxy. They are not evil or good, they are merely the caretakers cleaning and repairing the galaxy and not trying to waste anything.

3.

3)If you're trying to help sentient life, treat them as sentient life. Not bacteria. Letting them be AWARE of what's happening, the risks that will come, the responsibilities they have.
Let them be aware of the reasons you're destroying them. 

--- Giving anyone indication that they will be destroyed if something doesn't happen will prepare them better to unite against the Reapers and potentially thwart them which would leave no defense against the Technological Singularity. Also, it would possibly lead to alliances against the Reapers, or more advanced technology, or forcing AI studies to be more secretive and thus less able to be determined. Also, as people age or races advance or grow older they forget or become ignorant to old history.

4.

4) Bioware didn't think it through and it shows. Reapers are not smart. They do what they're programmed to do without taking in account the chance that civilizations will break through and learn and adapt. 

--- They are not AI, they are synthetic-organic constructs in a protective combat and defense shell. They have too much precedent that the same thing occurs as it did with the Protheans in a terrible way.

5.

Despite all the AI virus's that have gone on since the Reapers have come?

--- The Geth. However, properly manipulated they became a tool to destroy organic races in itself, it's also potentially possible they detected something else, their duty isn't to tell us what to detect, just to wipe the slate clean.

6.

edit: and if anything, Legion is a clear proof that AI may NOT want to seek the destruction of their creators.
Why aren't Reapers taking this into account?

If you've found the first point to be correct there's no reason to discuss this even further.
I don't even know what you're defending all this point.
The basic reason which Bioware writers claim why reapers do what they do is downright ridiculous and not plausible at all.

Further than that, if quarians are the ones who created the geth, why are humans, turians, volus etc getting destroyed too?

The answer lies to the same ridiculous assumption that ALL RACES will evolve the same way.

It totally makes senses in the "Bioware universe" though right?...right? They establish whatever they want. It's fantasy. Fiction.
Nope.

If you claim everyone will evolve to self destruct, then you destroy everyone.
Why would you give organic life the chance to do the same thing again if you KNOW it will happen? Just wipe it out completely.

AND EVEN THEN WHY wouldn't you admit that synthetic life is clearly superior and deserves to thrive and get organic life destroyed.

From whatever point you see it, whatever perspective you choose IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

When a story doesn't even hold on to its own feet, I call it "bad". I don't know what you call it.

Modifié par teh_619, 04 mars 2012 - 08:48 .

[Balek-Vriege]

Muskau wrote...

One more question. How does Synthesis stop AI's from being built? Doesn't it just make everyone like Shepard with robot parts? I'm pretty sure a Cyborg creating AI's is not different from a Human making AI.

I thought in the interview they had for ME3, they wouldn't leave us with questions about the ending.

Good point and again i'm trying to stay away from revisiting leaks etc. as too not spoil myself too much.  My guess the only means of preventing the tech singularity through synthesis is the following:

-  Make everyone super intelligent, strong etc. along the lines of advanced AI so we don't need them.
-  Program an instinctive warning into each being that prevents them (hopefully) from developing AI and the possibility of tech singularities, while limiting races from achieving this through cybernetics.

Essentially programming out some of our free will and forcefully keeping us from achieving technological singularity.  We end up with the benefits of both organic and synthetic lifeforms, but really being neither in the end.

Edit:  Typo

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 04 mars 2012 - 08:55 .

[ninjaNumber1]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Indoctrinated servants have a limited-time usefulness. Their intelligence degrades. Without the limiting factor of the reapers placed on organics they will begin to expand, and expand, and expand. Millions of massively populated worlds some of which would eventually not even be on the relay network as organics grow beyond that level of technology.

You try to track that. In civilizations that large there will ALWAYS be a way to hide your work.

And again, destroying the tech that allows us to accomplish these things is not an option. You can't destroy space-faring tech, or AI research, without killing every single organic that knows how to make it again. And you think any civilization is just going to let the reapers just waltz in and start blowing up all their tech and scientists? They'll fight back. It's an act of war. Which means the reapers risk being destroyed if they don't eliminate all resistance.

Which in that case, they might as well just wipe out all advanced species.

You cant hide your work from someone you don't know who you are hiding from. This would mean you will have to go solo. The indoctrinated will be part of the organic races. They will blend in .... perhaps a spectre like Saren... or a terrorist leader like TIM...

These things are easy to achieve. Also, its possible for an advanced race like reapers to monitor the communications channels in a planet etc too I presume.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 08:50 .

[Hexxys]

LOLandStuff wrote...

The dark energy idea was much better than the RGB junk they're giving us.

What was the dark energy idea?

[Aesieru]

Because, just because it didn't happen one time, doesn't mean it didn't happen the next time, and perhaps that other time simply didn't get to the point they could try or just had something else taking up their time. The fact precedent for it already exists is reason enough to keep going.

Agreeing with a logical fact does not refute any of the other information.

---

I spent some time coming up with answers to your questions, if you're going to ignore it all so that you can say something so as to vent your frustration with them not going about it in a way that meets your preferences then I can't really debate that with you because you're not open to answers.

I've tried, I won't put more effort into explaining what makes perfect sense to me, unless I see a need.

[Solduri]

also a tech singularity can happen with genetic engineering as well. which makes AI unneeded...

Ex. 1 DNA is a code just like a program in an AI if organics could rewrite their DNA to make them smarter to a infinite degree it would still happen.
Ex. 2 consciousness transfer (mind uploading) to unlimited amounts of synthetic constructs in essence having organic life itself become the tech singularity

also watching over 1 galaxy does not stop it from happening in multiple other galaxies and seeing as a synthetic life can in fact "live" forever they could go to other galaxies to keep expanding in theory forever. seeing as how the whole point of a tech singularity is unlimited control on intelligence they could use wormholes or some other unknown tech to reach other galaxies in a short amount of time causing their expanse to grow even faster. if a tech singularity was in fact as inevitable as some would like to think then it may have already happened in our time in reality in a galaxy on the other side of the universe.

[WizenSlinky0]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Indoctrinated servants have a limited-time usefulness. Their intelligence degrades. Without the limiting factor of the reapers placed on organics they will begin to expand, and expand, and expand. Millions of massively populated worlds some of which would eventually not even be on the relay network as organics grow beyond that level of technology.

You try to track that. In civilizations that large there will ALWAYS be a way to hide your work.

And again, destroying the tech that allows us to accomplish these things is not an option. You can't destroy space-faring tech, or AI research, without killing every single organic that knows how to make it again. And you think any civilization is just going to let the reapers just waltz in and start blowing up all their tech and scientists? They'll fight back. It's an act of war. Which means the reapers risk being destroyed if they don't eliminate all resistance.

Which in that case, they might as well just wipe out all advanced species.

You can hide your work from someone you don't know who you are hiding from. The indoctrinated will be part of the organic races. They will blend in .... perhaps a spectre like Saren... or a terrorist leader like TIM...

Trust me, these things are easy to achieve. Also, its possible for an advanced race like reapers to monitor the communications channels in a planet etc too I presume.

You're too idealistic and showing the same level of arrogance that the people who set up the cycle showed, thinking you know best, and can predict how things will turn out. Just saying it's not that cut and dry.

I personally think the idea of tons of indoctrinated slaves minging in with our every day lives for all of eternity to be a far, far sicker fate than what we have now. At least we get 50,000 years of determining our own fates. It's twisted.

What you're basically saying is it's possible to monitor every single person on every single planet. It's not feasible. If channels are being scanned, they'd just do something like Ilos where NO ONE knows about it. Not everything has to be sanctioned or known. The fact the reapers never found Ilos before ME1 proved without a doubt they are unable to keep track of everything.

Sorry, but it doesn't work. You probably think the great firewall of china is infallible too.

And then there's the case of things like the Geth. They were never meant to be AI's, only VI's, which have no sentience. Mistakes happen. And when there's no conscious desire to create an AI how can you possibly prevent accidents from occuring?

Your solution is filled with idealism and blind hope.

[ninjaNumber1]

Aesieru wrote...

Because, just because it didn't happen one time, doesn't mean it didn't happen the next time, and perhaps that other time simply didn't get to the point they could try or just had something else taking up their time. The fact precedent for it already exists is reason enough to keep going.

Agreeing with a logical fact does not refute any of the other information.

---

I spent some time coming up with answers to your questions, if you're going to ignore it all so that you can say something so as to vent your frustration with them not going about it in a way that meets your preferences then I can't really debate that with you because you're not open to answers.

I've tried, I won't put more effort into explaining what makes perfect sense to me, unless I see a need.

I think you are trying too hard right now to just defend and plug the holes. Years later, once your love for the series has died, you will look back and have a laugh together with us I am sure

[Balek-Vriege]

teh_619 wrote...

If you've found the first point to be correct there's no reason to discuss this even further.
I don't even know what you're defending all this point.
The basic reason which Bioware writers claim why reapers do what they do is downright ridiculous and not plausible at all.

Further than that, if quarians are the ones who created the geth, why are humans, turians, volus etc getting destroyed too?

The answer lies to the same ridiculous assumption that ALL RACES will evolve the same way.

It totally makes senses in the "Bioware universe" though right?...right? They establish whatever they want. It's fantasy. Fiction.
Nope.

If you claim everyone will evolve to self destruct, then you destroy everyone.
Why would you give organic life the chance to do the same thing again if you KNOW it will happen? Just wipe it out completely.

AND EVEN THEN WHY wouldn't you admit that synthetic life is clearly superior and deserves to thrive and get organic life destroyed.

From whatever point you see it, whatever perspective you choose IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

When a story doesn't even hold on to its own feet, I call it "bad". I don't know what you call it.

It makes perfect sense and does hold its feet, refer to the rest of the thread for the logic.  Based off how simple it is to reach a technological singularity, what would happen if something attained true runaway intelligence and what that would possibly mean for the Galaxy, their motivations for killing off every advanced intelligent species every 50K makes total sense.  It would make more sense if the 50K thing went byebye back to ME1 (which gives the impression they Reap when they have to.  30K years, 70K years, whatever).

[xtorma]

The reapers created the virus that rewrote the geth. Why couldnt they just broadcast a virus every year that causes all ai to self destruct or some such. The relays certianly had much more power than the geth station, if a few million organics die because they were too close , it shouldn't bother the reapers at all, if they were willing to eradicate them anyway.

[ninjaNumber1]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

You're too idealistic and showing the same level of arrogance that the people who set up the cycle showed, thinking you know best, and can predict how things will turn out. Just saying it's not that cut and dry.

I personally think the idea of tons of indoctrinated slaves minging in with our every day lives for all of eternity to be a far, far sicker fate than what we have now. At least we get 50,000 years of determining our own fates. It's twisted.

What you're basically saying is it's possible to monitor every single person on every single planet. It's not feasible. If channels are being scanned, they'd just do something like Ilos where NO ONE knows about it. Not everything has to be sanctioned or known. The fact the reapers never found Ilos before ME1 proved without a doubt they are unable to keep track of everything.

Sorry, but it doesn't work. You probably think the great firewall of china is infallible too.

And then there's the case of things like the Geth. They were never meant to be AI's, only VI's, which have no sentience. Mistakes happen. And when there's no conscious desire to create an AI how can you possibly prevent accidents from occuring?

Your solution is filled with idealism and blind hope.

See, you are making the same mistake someone else also made in a reply to me before.

You are right that having indoctrinated assassins in the middle of organics is a pretty ****ty way to live from an organic perspective if they know about it.

BUT, this is not the case from a reaper perspective. All they care about is preservation of organic life. In that sense, this is a solution which does not even required 'direct intervention' by brining in the whole fleet. Perhaps once in a blue moon, it might get to the level of requiring the fleet to come in and destroy some AI facillity but overall, everything is kept in-check.

In that sense, its a great solution for the reapers.

So what I am arguing here is not that the ending is ****ty for organics. That is not the problem. I am not complaining that all endings are depressing or anything. The problem is that from a reaper perspetive, the path they are taking seems to not make logical sense. Hence it fails as a narrative.

[Muskau]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Muskau wrote...

One more question. How does Synthesis stop AI's from being built? Doesn't it just make everyone like Shepard with robot parts? I'm pretty sure a Cyborg creating AI's is not different from a Human making AI.

I thought in the interview they had for ME3, they wouldn't leave us with questions about the ending.

Good point and again i'm trying to stay away from revisiting leaks etc. as too not spoil myself too much.  I guess the only means of preventing the tech singularity through synthesis is the following:

-  Make everyone super intelligent, strong etc. along the lines of advanced AI so we don't need them.
-  Program an instinctive warning into each being that prevents them (hopefully) from developing AI and the possibility of tech singularities, while limiting races from achieving this through cybernetics.

Essentially programming out some of our free will and forcefully keeping us from achieving technological singularity.  We end up with the benefits of both organic and synthetic lifeforms, but really being neither in the end.

I suppose we could 'assume' that.  But almost none of the endings seem to provide closure to the Tech singularity problem.

Destroy - Reapers and Relays destroyed  - Tech Singularity will happen in distant future

Synergy - People become Cyborgs - Tech singularity possible unless somehow they take away free will, which I thought was point of being organic?

Control - Reapers go away - Tech singularity possible and/or imminent due to Geth Dyson Sphere



Plus the AI is EVIL writing really isn't consistent

Heretics - Think Sovereign is a god, does as he commands.

Geth - Attacked by Quarians after questioning Quarians

Rogue Moon AI - Self defense after they try to deactivate.

Rogue computer on Citadel - Threatens to kill when cornered so he can get away.
etc etc...

[LOLandStuff]

Hexxys wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

The dark energy idea was much better than the RGB junk they're giving us.

What was the dark energy idea?

Something about dark energy spreading and the very first race turned themselves into Reapers so they could contain it until they found a solution.
Then, they were running out of time and started abducting humans to create a new reaper. And humans were special because they could recycle it or something and then there was no need for mass murder every 50k years because they would have always had the human reaper.
Something like that.

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

Because, just because it didn't happen one time, doesn't mean it didn't happen the next time, and perhaps that other time simply didn't get to the point they could try or just had something else taking up their time. The fact precedent for it already exists is reason enough to keep going.

Agreeing with a logical fact does not refute any of the other information.

---

I spent some time coming up with answers to your questions, if you're going to ignore it all so that you can say something so as to vent your frustration with them not going about it in a way that meets your preferences then I can't really debate that with you because you're not open to answers.

I've tried, I won't put more effort into explaining what makes perfect sense to me, unless I see a need.

You already agreed that claiming "everyone will evolve the same and eventually destroy themselves, NO QUESTIONS ASKED" is ridiculous.

That's what doesn't make sense. You acknowledge that and then go on about how everything makes sense for you.

You're in denial, my friend. You're lying to youself. Realise it. It might save you 60 bucks.

[ninjaNumber1]

xtorma wrote...

The reapers created the virus that rewrote the geth. Why couldnt they just broadcast a virus every year that causes all ai to self destruct or some such. The relays certianly had much more power than the geth station, if a few million organics die because they were too close , it shouldn't bother the reapers at all, if they were willing to eradicate them anyway.

Exactly, see, even better solutions that seem more effective in preserving organics and still preventing a tech singularity.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 09:00 .

[WizenSlinky0]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

See, you are making the same mistake someone else also made in a reply to me before.

You are right that having indoctrinated assassins in the middle of organics is a pretty ****ty way to live from an organic perspective if they know about it.

BUT, this is not the case from a reaper perspective. All they care about is preservation of organic life. In that sense, this is a solution which does not even required 'direct intervention' by brining in the whole fleet. Perhaps once in a blue moon, it might get to the level of requiring the fleet to come in and destroy some AI facillity but overall, everything is kept in-check.

In that sense, its a great solution for the reapers.

So what I am arguing here is not that the ending is ****ty for organics. That is not the problem. I am not complaining that all endings are depressing or anything. The problem is that from a reaper perspetive, the path they are taking seems to not make logical sense. Hence it fails as a narrative.

*sigh* The reapers don't care about anything. They are slaves to the Guardian. The Guardian determines the morals and decisions of the reapers. Whether they realize that or not is hard to say. Whoever set up the original cycle purposely made it so the reapers were unable to break free from the decision made without the influence of the Guardian changing.

And guess what? If that fleet came in, organics would freak. It wouldn't matter if they "sat down and had a long talk with them". Something that dangerous is deciding their fate, they would very quickly go into full militarization in order to prepare for the next time that fleet came. The reapers would never be able to safely work in the galaxy ever again so long as even one person who had seen them existed. You could say maybe they'd just sabotage all those military efforts. Then that'd very quickly expose the fact spies are in their ranks causing an increase lock-down in procedures and further blinding the reapers.

If anything, I'd say reapers are trapped in the same cage as organics, using a technology they never fully understood. As we use the relays the reapers use indoctrination without ever realizing the Guardian controls them through these methods.

[Aesieru]

teh_619 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Because, just because it didn't happen one time, doesn't mean it didn't happen the next time, and perhaps that other time simply didn't get to the point they could try or just had something else taking up their time. The fact precedent for it already exists is reason enough to keep going.

Agreeing with a logical fact does not refute any of the other information.

---

I spent some time coming up with answers to your questions, if you're going to ignore it all so that you can say something so as to vent your frustration with them not going about it in a way that meets your preferences then I can't really debate that with you because you're not open to answers.

I've tried, I won't put more effort into explaining what makes perfect sense to me, unless I see a need.

You already agreed that claiming "everyone will evolve the same and eventually destroy themselves, NO QUESTIONS ASKED" is ridiculous.

That's what doesn't make sense. You acknowledge that and then go on about how everything makes sense for you.

You're in denial, my friend. You're lying to youself. Realise it. It might save you 60 bucks.

84.95 + Gas, actually.

I simply stated that it's logical to realize that it won't necessarily happen everytime or the same way, but that doesn't mean that if a precedent is established that the precedent is ignored.

[teh_619]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

If you've found the first point to be correct there's no reason to discuss this even further.
I don't even know what you're defending all this point.
The basic reason which Bioware writers claim why reapers do what they do is downright ridiculous and not plausible at all.

Further than that, if quarians are the ones who created the geth, why are humans, turians, volus etc getting destroyed too?

The answer lies to the same ridiculous assumption that ALL RACES will evolve the same way.

It totally makes senses in the "Bioware universe" though right?...right? They establish whatever they want. It's fantasy. Fiction.
Nope.

If you claim everyone will evolve to self destruct, then you destroy everyone.
Why would you give organic life the chance to do the same thing again if you KNOW it will happen? Just wipe it out completely.

AND EVEN THEN WHY wouldn't you admit that synthetic life is clearly superior and deserves to thrive and get organic life destroyed.

From whatever point you see it, whatever perspective you choose IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

When a story doesn't even hold on to its own feet, I call it "bad". I don't know what you call it.

It makes perfect sense and does hold its feet, refer to the rest of the thread for the logic.  Based off how simple it is to reach a technological singularity, what would happen if something attained true runaway intelligence and what that would possibly mean for the Galaxy, their motivations for killing off every advanced intelligent species every 50K makes total sense.  It would make more sense if the 50K thing went byebye back to ME1 (which gives the impression they Reap when they have to.  30K years, 70K years, whatever).

First of all, it's insane to claim every clue of organic life will eventually evolve the same way.

Secondly,  if you dare to use that argument and EVERY ORGANIC LIFE is doomed to destroy itself no matter what, why don't you let it do so? What will you achieve? Why don't you destroy every sign of organic life yourself?
Why not let it go? Why not let something else take its place now instead of giving the doomed organic life one more chance to do the inevitable?

It doesn't make sense.

[Balek-Vriege]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

You're too idealistic and showing the same level of arrogance that the people who set up the cycle showed, thinking you know best, and can predict how things will turn out. Just saying it's not that cut and dry.

I personally think the idea of tons of indoctrinated slaves minging in with our every day lives for all of eternity to be a far, far sicker fate than what we have now. At least we get 50,000 years of determining our own fates. It's twisted.

What you're basically saying is it's possible to monitor every single person on every single planet. It's not feasible. If channels are being scanned, they'd just do something like Ilos where NO ONE knows about it. Not everything has to be sanctioned or known. The fact the reapers never found Ilos before ME1 proved without a doubt they are unable to keep track of everything.

Sorry, but it doesn't work. You probably think the great firewall of china is infallible too.

And then there's the case of things like the Geth. They were never meant to be AI's, only VI's, which have no sentience. Mistakes happen. And when there's no conscious desire to create an AI how can you possibly prevent accidents from occuring?

Your solution is filled with idealism and blind hope.

See, you are making the same mistake someone else also made in a reply to me before.

You are right that having indoctrinated assassins in the middle of organics is a pretty ****ty way to live from an organic perspective if they know about it.

BUT, this is not the case from a reaper perspective. All they care about is preservation of organic life. In that sense, this is a solution which does not even required 'direct intervention' by brining in the whole fleet. Perhaps once in a blue moon, it might get to the level of requiring the fleet to come in and destroy some AI facillity but overall, everything is kept in-check.

In that sense, its a great solution for the reapers.

So what I am arguing here is not that the ending is ****ty for organics. That is not the problem. I am not complaining that all endings are depressing or anything. The problem is that from a reaper perspetive, the path they are taking seems to not make logical sense. Hence it fails as a narrative.

What happens when an AI(s) knows about the Reapers (or whatever would exist fulfulling their similar role), the indoctrinated agents and know that the best course of action was to leave relay space?  With the size of the galaxy they could disappear for thousands if not hundred of thousands of years only to show up again and destroy the Reapers and any organics.

I'm not saying all the other scenarios don't have a chance for failure.  However, Reaper interloping 24/7 to preserve as many lifes as possible seems to have the most problems, because it would cause so many negative and counter productive reactions to their very presence.

[Solduri]

teh_619 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

If you've found the first point to be correct there's no reason to discuss this even further.
I don't even know what you're defending all this point.
The basic reason which Bioware writers claim why reapers do what they do is downright ridiculous and not plausible at all.

Further than that, if quarians are the ones who created the geth, why are humans, turians, volus etc getting destroyed too?

The answer lies to the same ridiculous assumption that ALL RACES will evolve the same way.

It totally makes senses in the "Bioware universe" though right?...right? They establish whatever they want. It's fantasy. Fiction.
Nope.

If you claim everyone will evolve to self destruct, then you destroy everyone.
Why would you give organic life the chance to do the same thing again if you KNOW it will happen? Just wipe it out completely.

AND EVEN THEN WHY wouldn't you admit that synthetic life is clearly superior and deserves to thrive and get organic life destroyed.

From whatever point you see it, whatever perspective you choose IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

When a story doesn't even hold on to its own feet, I call it "bad". I don't know what you call it.

It makes perfect sense and does hold its feet, refer to the rest of the thread for the logic.  Based off how simple it is to reach a technological singularity, what would happen if something attained true runaway intelligence and what that would possibly mean for the Galaxy, their motivations for killing off every advanced intelligent species every 50K makes total sense.  It would make more sense if the 50K thing went byebye back to ME1 (which gives the impression they Reap when they have to.  30K years, 70K years, whatever).

First of all, it's insane to claim every clue of organic life will eventually evolve the same way.

Secondly,  if you dare to use that argument and EVERY ORGANIC LIFE is doomed to destroy itself no matter what, why don't you let it do so? What will you achieve? Why don't you destroy every sign of organic life yourself?
Why not let it go? Why not let something else take its place now instead of giving the doomed organic life one more chance to do the inevitable?

It doesn't make sense.

that is a good point it doesn't make sense at all if it is inevitable

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Because, just because it didn't happen one time, doesn't mean it didn't happen the next time, and perhaps that other time simply didn't get to the point they could try or just had something else taking up their time. The fact precedent for it already exists is reason enough to keep going.

Agreeing with a logical fact does not refute any of the other information.

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I spent some time coming up with answers to your questions, if you're going to ignore it all so that you can say something so as to vent your frustration with them not going about it in a way that meets your preferences then I can't really debate that with you because you're not open to answers.

I've tried, I won't put more effort into explaining what makes perfect sense to me, unless I see a need.

You already agreed that claiming "everyone will evolve the same and eventually destroy themselves, NO QUESTIONS ASKED" is ridiculous.

That's what doesn't make sense. You acknowledge that and then go on about how everything makes sense for you.

You're in denial, my friend. You're lying to youself. Realise it. It might save you 60 bucks.

84.95 + Gas, actually.

I simply stated that it's logical to realize that it won't necessarily happen everytime or the same way, but that doesn't mean that if a precedent is established that the precedent is ignored.

Pretty cool. It also doesn't mean that you should destroy every sign organic life.