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"Reapers wipe out all organic life to prevent synthetics from wiping out all organic life."


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#51
Treopod

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tobito113 wrote...

Treopod wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Sometimes I wonder if any of you even try to use your brains, or if you just insult anything you don't agree with whether you understand it or not.


there is no way you can defend this ending, people have seen it for themselves and their criticism is highly valid. Horrible voice casting for the Guardian, horrible reasoning for the cycle, horrible melodrama by separating shepard from his crew regardless of how much GaW you have gained (making it a pointless stat), and its also a blatant rip off of BSG, a show which also has a horrible ending. :pinched:


Just because you cant have your blue waifu dosent mean the reaper part is a plot hole, youre just attacking the story without THINKING...


thats stupid, i didnt say anything about the endings until i saw the whole ending with the kid guardian and the epilogue on youtube, and after seeing that you cannot defend this ending, it has nothing to do with the LI (although its stupid that they couldnt make at least one ending for the people who wanted a happy reunion as well, and the reason for their separation is stupid anyway, unnecessary melodrama).

but you conveniently ignored the other problems the endings have, the whole reasoning behind the reapers is a paradox, and even if you want to argue with details that they are preserving organic life, there is a much easier and better solution that they could have taken, they could have been programmed to destroy synthetic life instead, like geth, and if that was the case there wouldnt have been any issue in the galaxy.

furthermore a technological singularity doesnt have to be a bad thing, cause its achievable without sentient AI, organics can achieve it themselves by improving their own intelligence with technology. And considering that the Reapers are quite similar to that except that they are programmed to not have free will and evolve, it seems likely that the creators of the reapers had the technology to take that path instead of this one, they didnt even have to upload themselves, why not improve their own organic intelligence without becoming syntethic AI:s? the definition of the tech singularity says that this is possible.

#52
Halo Quea

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So the Tech-Singularity is the Matrix's Systemic Anomaly?

I think darkangelvxvx really nailed this whole thing down.

#53
darkangelvxvx

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tobito113 wrote...

darkangelvxvx wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

darkangelvxvx wrote...

 So... The Reapers took over the Geth in the first 2 games, to prevent the Geth from taking over the galaxy.  But in turn, The Reapers will ultimately extinguish all advanced life in the galaxy, to prevent this from happening.
In the end, they'll allow "non-evolved" life to continue on...



Did you forget legion himself said the reapers were just using the Geth.  DID YOU EVEN PLAY MASS EFFECT 2?

This board is just crazy...


My understanding was that the Geth that sided with the reapers WANTED to be given a future, not that they were being used.  There is a difference.


The geth are the same as Saren, they never knew what the reapers real intentions where. They would get the Protean/Colectors treatment (at best).


Saren wanted to "blunt"  the Reaper treatment.  He assumed he could deafen their attack by convincing them that not all life needed to die.  His assumption was correct of course.  The Geth however, wanted to be given the Collector treatment.  As stated by Legion (more or less):  "The Geth build our future.  The Heritics asked Nazara to give them a future."

Modifié par darkangelvxvx, 04 mars 2012 - 03:43 .


#54
Aesieru

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No in no way is it the anomaly. How many brain cells did you lose coming up with that?

It's about a force becoming independent and technologically advanced to such a degree that it is beyond organic understanding and subsequently sees no use for organics, in this means it may or may not attack them but it will do what an AI would do--expand. Through continual expansion it will deplete all resources and all materials and in time whatever attacks it will be destroyed or eradicated or subsumed.

If anything, the Singularity is the Machines not the Anomaly.

#55
Obro

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Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

^
So reapers perspective is that creatures who achieved space travel/art/science/ect don't understand the meaning of sacrifice? Are you kidding me?


You achieved it by fumbling with technology you barely understood, we're copy cats in that regard, we just happened to expand quick.

And yes, there is a much larger realm of existence beyond that which Humanity knows, and Humanity would never kill itself to save hundreds of trillions of potential lives.


OK bro listen up ... you don't need MassEffect space tech for science/art or space travel. We have it now. We already did it all and then we found ruins on Mars in like 2100 something and THEN we got the "tech we barely understood"

So we already had all the experiences. It is just stupid reasoning.

#56
Aesieru

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Obro wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

^
So reapers perspective is that creatures who achieved space travel/art/science/ect don't understand the meaning of sacrifice? Are you kidding me?


You achieved it by fumbling with technology you barely understood, we're copy cats in that regard, we just happened to expand quick.

And yes, there is a much larger realm of existence beyond that which Humanity knows, and Humanity would never kill itself to save hundreds of trillions of potential lives.


OK bro listen up ... you don't need MassEffect space tech for science/art or space travel. We have it now. We already did it all and then we found ruins on Mars in like 2100 something and THEN we got the "tech we barely understood"

So we already had all the experiences. It is just stupid reasoning.


We were not able to explore the galaxy, we barely had any type of space travel capabilities. You really need to read more of the Codex.

#57
Obro

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Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

^
So reapers perspective is that creatures who achieved space travel/art/science/ect don't understand the meaning of sacrifice? Are you kidding me?


You achieved it by fumbling with technology you barely understood, we're copy cats in that regard, we just happened to expand quick.

And yes, there is a much larger realm of existence beyond that which Humanity knows, and Humanity would never kill itself to save hundreds of trillions of potential lives.


OK bro listen up ... you don't need MassEffect space tech for science/art or space travel. We have it now. We already did it all and then we found ruins on Mars in like 2100 something and THEN we got the "tech we barely understood"

So we already had all the experiences. It is just stupid reasoning.


We were not able to explore the galaxy, we barely had any type of space travel capabilities. You really need to read more of the Codex.


Dude space travel capabilities have nothing to do with the understanding of SACREFICE which was the ****ing point of our discussion. Remember what all of this arguing between you and me is about? Yeesh

#58
xtorma

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humes spork wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Really the whole geth thing was just a big accident. Saren told the geth to make egg rolls, and they interpreted it as Make heads roll.


Can't make an omellete without killing a few thousand humans.


At least you have a spork to eat it with :D

#59
Aesieru

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Obro wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

^
So reapers perspective is that creatures who achieved space travel/art/science/ect don't understand the meaning of sacrifice? Are you kidding me?


You achieved it by fumbling with technology you barely understood, we're copy cats in that regard, we just happened to expand quick.

And yes, there is a much larger realm of existence beyond that which Humanity knows, and Humanity would never kill itself to save hundreds of trillions of potential lives.


OK bro listen up ... you don't need MassEffect space tech for science/art or space travel. We have it now. We already did it all and then we found ruins on Mars in like 2100 something and THEN we got the "tech we barely understood"

So we already had all the experiences. It is just stupid reasoning.


We were not able to explore the galaxy, we barely had any type of space travel capabilities. You really need to read more of the Codex.


Dude space travel capabilities have nothing to do with the understanding of SACREFICE which was the ****ing point of our discussion. Remember what all of this arguing between you and me is about? Yeesh


My point was to illustrate that we are not that advanced, and that the only reason we joined the galactic community was because we stumbled upon Prothean technology we barely understood.

Just like everyone else stumbled upon the Relays they barely understood.

---

In any case, the game shows very clearly that Humanity is in this for itself, and while they aren't adverse to some relations for potential gain, they are not there to make the community a better place.

In extension, we do not really have the self-perspective or centristic mindset necessary to make necessary sacrifices for the good of all that aren't even existent yet, and in that case, the Reapers have their means to do things.

The AI singularity is pretty much an absolute, we nearly saw it was the Overlord Project, with the VI Outbreak, and with the Hannibal AI (though that was isolated). We've already nearly had it occur.

#60
darkangelvxvx

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Halo Quea wrote...

So the Tech-Singularity is the Matrix's Systemic Anomaly?

I think darkangelvxvx really nailed this whole thing down.

  


Aesieru wrote...

No in no way is it the anomaly. How many brain cells did you lose coming up with that?

It's about a force becoming independent and technologically advanced to such a degree that it is beyond organic understanding and subsequently sees no use for organics, in this means it may or may not attack them but it will do what an AI would do--expand. Through continual expansion it will deplete all resources and all materials and in time whatever attacks it will be destroyed or eradicated or subsumed.

If anything, the Singularity is the Machines not the Anomaly.




 The Machines are The Reapers who are coming to destroy Zion, to preserve it, and Shepard is Neo (The Anomaly) while The Catalyst is The Architect. However in this scenario, Win lose or draw, Zion is destroyed and the survivors (Normandy crash)  recreate the world possibly without The Reapers/Machines.

Modifié par darkangelvxvx, 04 mars 2012 - 03:47 .


#61
Obro

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Aesieru wrote...
My point was to illustrate that we are not that advanced, and that the only reason we joined the galactic community was because we stumbled upon Prothean technology we barely understood.

Just like everyone else stumbled upon the Relays they barely understood.

---

In any case, the game shows very clearly that Humanity is in this for itself, and while they aren't adverse to some relations for potential gain, they are not there to make the community a better place.

In extension, we do not really have the self-perspective or centristic mindset necessary to make necessary sacrifices for the good of all that aren't even existent yet, and in that case, the Reapers have their means to do things.

The AI singularity is pretty much an absolute, we nearly saw it was the Overlord Project, with the VI Outbreak, and with the Hannibal AI (though that was isolated). We've already nearly had it occur.


So... you're just going to ignore evey argument I make? HOW ARE WE NOT ADVANCED ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND SACREFICE? Some damn animals understand sacrefice. How dense are you?

#62
Ksandor

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Reapinger wrote...

It's both really. Organic creates synthetic that will eventually kill all organic. Reapers uplift organic to save ultimately from synthetic destruction. Reapers are a combo of both. But in a way also allow life to continue by preventing organics from consuming all galactic resources. Lame.


Creative Bioware is... What a bore...

#63
Aesieru

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darkangelvxvx wrote...

   

Halo Quea wrote...

So the Tech-Singularity is the Matrix's Systemic Anomaly?

I think darkangelvxvx really nailed this whole thing down.

  


Aesieru wrote...

No in no way is it the anomaly. How many brain cells did you lose coming up with that?

It's about a force becoming independent and technologically advanced to such a degree that it is beyond organic understanding and subsequently sees no use for organics, in this means it may or may not attack them but it will do what an AI would do--expand. Through continual expansion it will deplete all resources and all materials and in time whatever attacks it will be destroyed or eradicated or subsumed.

If anything, the Singularity is the Machines not the Anomaly.




 The Machines are The Reapers who are coming to destroy Zion, to preserve it, and Shepard is Neo (The Anomaly) while The Catalyst is The Architect. However in this scenario, Win lose or draw, Zion is destroyed and the survivors (Normandy crash)  recreate the world possibly without The Reapers/Machines.


Sorry but you're focusing too much on the Normandy and too little on the races of the galaxy and Humanity.

You are very wrong, and I can't see how you could even consider this to be similar.

#64
Aesieru

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Obro wrote...

Aesieru wrote...
My point was to illustrate that we are not that advanced, and that the only reason we joined the galactic community was because we stumbled upon Prothean technology we barely understood.

Just like everyone else stumbled upon the Relays they barely understood.

---

In any case, the game shows very clearly that Humanity is in this for itself, and while they aren't adverse to some relations for potential gain, they are not there to make the community a better place.

In extension, we do not really have the self-perspective or centristic mindset necessary to make necessary sacrifices for the good of all that aren't even existent yet, and in that case, the Reapers have their means to do things.

The AI singularity is pretty much an absolute, we nearly saw it was the Overlord Project, with the VI Outbreak, and with the Hannibal AI (though that was isolated). We've already nearly had it occur.


So... you're just going to ignore evey argument I make? HOW ARE WE NOT ADVANCED ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND SACREFICE? Some damn animals understand sacrefice. How dense are you?


THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FEW MILLION, A FEW BILLION, and HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS OF LIVES.

That's a level of sacrifice no Human is prepared to accept much less the majority of all races.

None of these alien races are of a level of understanding or advancement to be able to sacrifice themselves to save the future.

#65
darkangelvxvx

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Obro wrote...

Aesieru wrote...
My point was to illustrate that we are not that advanced, and that the only reason we joined the galactic community was because we stumbled upon Prothean technology we barely understood.

Just like everyone else stumbled upon the Relays they barely understood.

---

In any case, the game shows very clearly that Humanity is in this for itself, and while they aren't adverse to some relations for potential gain, they are not there to make the community a better place.

In extension, we do not really have the self-perspective or centristic mindset necessary to make necessary sacrifices for the good of all that aren't even existent yet, and in that case, the Reapers have their means to do things.

The AI singularity is pretty much an absolute, we nearly saw it was the Overlord Project, with the VI Outbreak, and with the Hannibal AI (though that was isolated). We've already nearly had it occur.


So... you're just going to ignore evey argument I make? HOW ARE WE NOT ADVANCED ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND SACREFICE? Some damn animals understand sacrefice. How dense are you?


Just because you're angry that the ending is trash, doesn't mean that you can take it out on another individual.  His view is different than yours, accept it.  Sacrifice is different for everyone, and insulting him because you two see it differently is not the way to solve your disagreement.  

Modifié par darkangelvxvx, 04 mars 2012 - 04:02 .


#66
lzaffuto

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The Reapers wipe out all organic races that they believe are technologically advanced enough to create AI before they return for the next cycle. Remember, *our species* was alive when they exterminated the Protheans, which were studying us as well as the Hanar. It is extremely likely that all galactic races now fighting the Reapers were spared by them in the previous cycle. The only reason we have a fighting chance is because the Protheans delayed this cycle... meaning that we already invented AI and advanced our technology to the point where we have a fighting chance.

#67
The Makatak

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 For the last scene, you just see Shepard walk off into the light, and he leaves behind this.

#68
Obro

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darkangelvxvx wrote...
Just because you're angry that the ending is trash, doesn't mean that you can take it out on another individual.  His view is different than yours, accept it.  Sacrifice is different for everyone, and insulting him because you two see it differently is not the way to solve your disagreement.  


I am trying to have a nice conversation and then he proceeds to ignore my points what you want me to do? And it's not about "sacrefice is different for everyone" question it's the stupid idea that Sovergin in ME1 claims that "we cant comprehend his reasoning" which we obviously can.

#69
Aesieru

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Obro wrote...

darkangelvxvx wrote...
Just because you're angry that the ending is trash, doesn't mean that you can take it out on another individual.  His view is different than yours, accept it.  Sacrifice is different for everyone, and insulting him because you two see it differently is not the way to solve your disagreement.  


I am trying to have a nice conversation and then he proceeds to ignore my points what you want me to do? And it's not about "sacrefice is different for everyone" question it's the stupid idea that Sovergin in ME1 claims that "we cant comprehend his reasoning" which we obviously can.


You still can't comprehend his reasoning because you still can't see how necessary it is to sacrifice entire races and space-faring civilizations for the potential of life so as to prevent an AI.

Also, I have made certain to address each of your points, you just keep ignoring my responses.

#70
xtorma

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lzaffuto wrote...

The Reapers wipe out all organic races that they believe are technologically advanced enough to create AI before they return for the next cycle. Remember, *our species* was alive when they exterminated the Protheans, which were studying us as well as the Hanar. It is extremely likely that all galactic races now fighting the Reapers were spared by them in the previous cycle. The only reason we have a fighting chance is because the Protheans delayed this cycle... meaning that we already invented AI and advanced our technology to the point where we have a fighting chance.


maybe the protheans seeded the entire galaxy :D they are....buddha!

#71
Balek-Vriege

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I think a lot of the complaints about how characters end up in the endings are jusitified from an emotional attachment point of view.  However, i'm finding the complaints about the actual end of the plot to be lacking knowledge of what tech singularities actually are, the codex, the seriousness of the issue and why the Reapers are not exactly tech singularity in themselves.  It could be the fault of writing not fully cluing people in, but from other scifi works tech singularities are pretty big deal and aren't just BSG, Geth and Terminator plots (although both, especially terminator shows Skynet being a slow tech singularity with time travel etc.)  Actually it's a pretty big deal in realty too and could happen much sooner than it has in the ME universe.  The result is pretty much the end of a species (by being wiped out).

Technological Singularities are intelligences or super intelligences that become so smart their creators pale in comparison.  The singularity part of the definition comes in when said intelligences become runaway intelligence.  They are able to constantly rewrite and transform themselves to be smarter.  Intellect that could take hundreds of thousands or even millions of years to achieve through evolution, could be achieved much faster if not almost instantaneous.  Who knows what the motivations of something like that would be.  However, if such an intelligence had ambition and/or a goal (e.g. become smarter, stronger, better or wipe out any threat), it could start eating up resources so fast the a planet, then a solar system and even a Galaxy wouldn't survive.  The runaway intelligence basically becomes a grey goo of sorts and the natural process of organic life would cease.  Such an intelligence could also change the way the universe works if it got smart enough and it was possible.

That's the gravity of Technological Singularities.  Now here's a list of AI and why or why they're not tech singularities:

-Geth:  Do not meet the requirements and are quite unique for a rebelling AI.  Individualy, save for Legion, they're not as smart as an intelligent organics.  Better calculators, but not as smart.  It's when you start grouping programs that you run into trouble.  The Geth may achieve it if they make their dyson sphere, but the way their programs interact is more like individuals than one entity.  So the Geth may avoid it because they're more like a group of intelligent "lesser creatures" able to share brain processing power.

-Cylons in Old or New BSG:  In the old version most cylons seem as dumb as a post and the higher rank AIs not that much smarter than a human.  In the new version the most advanced cylons aren't smarter or more cunning than a Human (usually).  Although not a tech singularity quite yet, Cylons are on the cusp of it in BSG.  The only problem is the spiritual slant and divine intervention/cycles getting in the way.

-Terminator:  Skynet is a tech singularity and a time paradox because of it.  Within a few seconds of being online it goes from being a smart defense network or a full blown runaway AI that decides to kill off mankind to assert it's domination over Earth.  Within John Conner's adult life it builds a super advanced army with the resources of a blasted world, figures out time travel and was hinted in the lastest movie, is actually getting smarter/faster from one timeline to the next.  It's possible that at some point Skynet would win, but that's more to do with the time paradox.

-Reapers:  They should be tech singularities but are still limited by pre-programmed motivations and limits.  Whoever created the Reapers definitely knew what they were doing when it came to AI.  Although they may think of crazy things beyond what we could possibly understand, they can't act upon them unless it has to do with the cycles.  They're basically as strong and powerful as an AI/Organic hybrid can get without singularity in order to do as the OP says - prevent singularities.

The creators of the Reapers are/were preservationists, for whatever reason, that wanted to see organic life continue.  In order to do so they have to prevent a severe tech singularity (like Skynet, but with access to a lot more resources) from occuring.  Since it's almost destined and in the nature of organics to fall into a tech singularity from progress alone, they decided to Reap intelligent species before they ruin everything.  Everyone gets their day in the sun and before they ruin it for themselves the Reapers do it for them in a controlled way.  Then another as race or group of races their day in the sun too.  If you're special enough you even get an immortal urn (Reaperfied).
 
It all makes sense and the choices at the end make sense.  Good and evil have no real bearing on the Mass Effect universe, only motivations and actions.  Being upset that the Reapers don't reap for the sake of reaping and the fact there is a logical grand scheme doesn't make sense to me.  I would be angry if they were your simple "We do it because we are powerful and want to stay that way."  That's Star Treky type plots.  I prefer Dune-like scifi to Star Wars/Star Trek any day.
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Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 04 mars 2012 - 04:43 .


#72
Vaenier

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Aesieru wrote...
You still can't comprehend his reasoning because you still can't see how necessary it is to sacrifice entire races and space-faring civilizations for the potential of life so as to prevent an AI.

Why do you feel organic life has a greater value than cybernetic or synthetic life?

#73
xtorma

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Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

darkangelvxvx wrote...
Just because you're angry that the ending is trash, doesn't mean that you can take it out on another individual.  His view is different than yours, accept it.  Sacrifice is different for everyone, and insulting him because you two see it differently is not the way to solve your disagreement.  


I am trying to have a nice conversation and then he proceeds to ignore my points what you want me to do? And it's not about "sacrefice is different for everyone" question it's the stupid idea that Sovergin in ME1 claims that "we cant comprehend his reasoning" which we obviously can.


You still can't comprehend his reasoning because you still can't see how necessary it is to sacrifice entire races and space-faring civilizations for the potential of life so as to prevent an AI.

Also, I have made certain to address each of your points, you just keep ignoring my responses.


How do we know this is the truth though? just because the guardian believes it , does that make it inevitable?

Do we have any proof it has come close to happening before? I mean , how can you trust the motivations of something that has destroyed civilization millions of times? How do we know they just don't use us to reproduce and that is there entire motivation?

#74
Aesieru

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Vaenier wrote...

Aesieru wrote...
You still can't comprehend his reasoning because you still can't see how necessary it is to sacrifice entire races and space-faring civilizations for the potential of life so as to prevent an AI.

Why do you feel organic life has a greater value than cybernetic or synthetic life?


Because inevitably, AI will expand to the point their devour everything because they require no checks and balances that organic races do, as those checks and balances are part of their own requirements to even survive.

#75
Aesieru

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xtorma wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Obro wrote...

darkangelvxvx wrote...
Just because you're angry that the ending is trash, doesn't mean that you can take it out on another individual.  His view is different than yours, accept it.  Sacrifice is different for everyone, and insulting him because you two see it differently is not the way to solve your disagreement.  


I am trying to have a nice conversation and then he proceeds to ignore my points what you want me to do? And it's not about "sacrefice is different for everyone" question it's the stupid idea that Sovergin in ME1 claims that "we cant comprehend his reasoning" which we obviously can.


You still can't comprehend his reasoning because you still can't see how necessary it is to sacrifice entire races and space-faring civilizations for the potential of life so as to prevent an AI.

Also, I have made certain to address each of your points, you just keep ignoring my responses.


How do we know this is the truth though? just because the guardian believes it , does that make it inevitable?

Do we have any proof it has come close to happening before? I mean , how can you trust the motivations of something that has destroyed civilization millions of times? How do we know they just don't use us to reproduce and that is there entire motivation?


Prothean AI Rebellions (discussed in ME 3)

Luna - AI Hannibal Project (Isolated)

Project Overlord (Nearly infected everything)

VI Outbreak / Virus (Infected anything it came into contact with)

Geth Heretics (Intended removal of all organic life)

Geth Original (Creating dyson sphere which will then be expanded as they become infinitely intelligent and seek to grow more as they devour things, hinted to and foreshadowed in ME2 with Legions 5 conversations).

The list goes on and on and on.