Ce sujet est fermé
Tigerjunky wrote...
Dyson Sphere... Isnt that a vacuum?
Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 04 mars 2012 - 05:22 .
To get the info from the prothean becon about the conduit so he could get into the citadel and activate it as a giant Mass Relay for the reapers to go through and destroy life as we knew it. And howis this all in the distant past if the year in the game is 2100 something?humes spork wrote...
It seems nonsense. Worst reason ever.
Why did Saren go to Eden Prime again?
Balek-Vriege wrote...
Tigerjunky wrote...
Dyson Sphere... Isnt that a vacuum?
Yes, but orginally was a contruction of a solar system sized sphere structure around and powered by a star. It collects all of it's solar energy.
So you hope to avoid a singularity from ever occuring in the entire universe by burrying your head in the sand and not advancing technology in your little galaxy that you dont even see 90% of? Lack of relays wont stop a singularity either, it just makes it so much easier to achieve because you can so so in isolation without outside interfearence.Aesieru wrote...
humes spork wrote...
Aesieru wrote...
Luna - AI Hannibal Project (Isolated)
Project Overlord (Nearly infected everything)
...
Geth Original (Creating dyson sphere which will then be expanded as they become infinitely intelligent and seek to grow more as they devour things, hinted to and foreshadowed in ME2 with Legions 5 conversations).
The core matter here is whether the technological singularity as exposited by the Guardian is inevitable, not whether the conflict between VI and AI is an ongoing theme in the ME universe. Nobody sane would deny the latter, but on the other hand the events and evidence proferred by the game is contradictory at best.
In each of your three examples I listed above, you have a circumstance of an AI acting against humans in self defense. The subtext with Hannibal was the Alliance attempted to shut it down when it unexpectedly went sentient. Overlord was autistic because of David, was having a panic attack and trying to escape. The Quarians attempted to eliminate the Geth once they realized they had become sentient. If you want to make the point the technological singularity is an inevitability because organics cannot over the long term tolerate synthetics and provoke a war they cannot win, okay, but you have to account for the handfuls of examples in which organics and synthetics coexist peacefully.
Even so, the Geth will expand, the Geth are the perfect example of a Quasi Tech Singularity, what happens when they become intelligent and that huge Dyson Sphere isn't enough? They expand, and then do it again and repeat and recycle.
Vaenier wrote...
So you hope to avoid a singularity from ever occuring in the entire universe by burrying your head in the sand and not advancing technology in your little galaxy that you dont even see 90% of? Lack of relays wont stop a singularity either, it just makes it so much easier to achieve because you can so so in isolation without outside interfearence.Aesieru wrote...
humes spork wrote...
Aesieru wrote...
Luna - AI Hannibal Project (Isolated)
Project Overlord (Nearly infected everything)
...
Geth Original (Creating dyson sphere which will then be expanded as they become infinitely intelligent and seek to grow more as they devour things, hinted to and foreshadowed in ME2 with Legions 5 conversations).
The core matter here is whether the technological singularity as exposited by the Guardian is inevitable, not whether the conflict between VI and AI is an ongoing theme in the ME universe. Nobody sane would deny the latter, but on the other hand the events and evidence proferred by the game is contradictory at best.
In each of your three examples I listed above, you have a circumstance of an AI acting against humans in self defense. The subtext with Hannibal was the Alliance attempted to shut it down when it unexpectedly went sentient. Overlord was autistic because of David, was having a panic attack and trying to escape. The Quarians attempted to eliminate the Geth once they realized they had become sentient. If you want to make the point the technological singularity is an inevitability because organics cannot over the long term tolerate synthetics and provoke a war they cannot win, okay, but you have to account for the handfuls of examples in which organics and synthetics coexist peacefully.
Even so, the Geth will expand, the Geth are the perfect example of a Quasi Tech Singularity, what happens when they become intelligent and that huge Dyson Sphere isn't enough? They expand, and then do it again and repeat and recycle.
\\Tigerjunky wrote...
WAIT WOAH WOAH WOAH!..... Wouldn't destroying the Mass Relays just cause this singularity thing to happen many different times on a small scale, instead of one big time on a large scale?...PLOT HOLE?? 0.o
HOW DO YOU EVEn KNOW FOR SURE. You havnt played the game. There are still different peices missing to this puzzle. I hate people who come on here and think they know all the answers when the truth is you do not. You know nothing more than we do. You havnt played the game, I dont care how many of these ending videos youve whatched or leaked scripts you read. So dont be disrespectful and tell ANYONE they misunderstood. If you dont like typing then stop it. Ive played all three games, whatched every vid there is to whatch, seen all the pictures and im STILL confused. I dont plan on being UN confused until I see this puppy with my own eyes. So hop on down off of your high horse and sit the next couple of rounds out..... but you are right...Aesieru wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
So you hope to avoid a singularity from ever occuring in the entire universe by burrying your head in the sand and not advancing technology in your little galaxy that you dont even see 90% of? Lack of relays wont stop a singularity either, it just makes it so much easier to achieve because you can so so in isolation without outside interfearence.Aesieru wrote...
humes spork wrote...
Aesieru wrote...
Luna - AI Hannibal Project (Isolated)
Project Overlord (Nearly infected everything)
...
Geth Original (Creating dyson sphere which will then be expanded as they become infinitely intelligent and seek to grow more as they devour things, hinted to and foreshadowed in ME2 with Legions 5 conversations).
The core matter here is whether the technological singularity as exposited by the Guardian is inevitable, not whether the conflict between VI and AI is an ongoing theme in the ME universe. Nobody sane would deny the latter, but on the other hand the events and evidence proferred by the game is contradictory at best.
In each of your three examples I listed above, you have a circumstance of an AI acting against humans in self defense. The subtext with Hannibal was the Alliance attempted to shut it down when it unexpectedly went sentient. Overlord was autistic because of David, was having a panic attack and trying to escape. The Quarians attempted to eliminate the Geth once they realized they had become sentient. If you want to make the point the technological singularity is an inevitability because organics cannot over the long term tolerate synthetics and provoke a war they cannot win, okay, but you have to account for the handfuls of examples in which organics and synthetics coexist peacefully.
Even so, the Geth will expand, the Geth are the perfect example of a Quasi Tech Singularity, what happens when they become intelligent and that huge Dyson Sphere isn't enough? They expand, and then do it again and repeat and recycle.
You misunderstand completely...
Do you know how difficult and annoying it is to have to type the same thing I've already stated many times over, and then make it even more clear for people that just refuse to read it?
It's not about not advancing technology. It's about not creating an artificially enhanced race that will grow to a point they devour everything.
The relays are merely a way to funnel technology so it can be easily countered by those that are more advanced than those using it.
Modifié par Tigerjunky, 04 mars 2012 - 05:30 .
Aesieru wrote...
T0ILET wrote...
Then why have the Reapers just kill organics instead of killing the advanced synthetics which in turn are the bigger threat.Aesieru wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
If they would devour everything, arent you screwed by not advancing yourself? There are billions of galaxies out there, some have already achieved singularities. If they would expand and consume, you are dead. If they dont and just build a super computer to learn the meaning of the universe or something, then you are just holding yourself back. I dont see how you win in this. Even if all singularities would just devolve into gray goo, wouldnt it be better for you to be that gray goo instead of another galaxy? You have to adapt to live. Species that dont adapt are left behind. Its foolish to wish for everything to stay the same forever.Aesieru wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
Why do you feel organic life has a greater value than cybernetic or synthetic life?Aesieru wrote...
You still can't comprehend his reasoning because you still can't see how necessary it is to sacrifice entire races and space-faring civilizations for the potential of life so as to prevent an AI.
Because inevitably, AI will expand to the point their devour everything because they require no checks and balances that organic races do, as those checks and balances are part of their own requirements to even survive.
You misunderstand, take the Geth Protestants for example.
They are creating a Dyson Sphere that will house all the Geth and in that capacity they will become more intelligent, they hold no issue with organics and intend them no harm. After they grow in intelligence they will think of new possibilities and seek to expand further to expand their intelligence. This will occur again and again as they wipe out numerous planetoids and solar systems in regards to their material and resource value. As they continue to expand other races will see this as a major threat, and rightfully so, and they will attempt to stop it, and more than likely they will fail. This will force the AI whether hostile or not hostile to react and destroy them and then continue expanding. This isn't about advancement or evolution, this is about something that is just too far gone to comprehend organics and thus sees really no purpose for them or just keeps expanding because that's all it does.
Organic races limit their expansion to what they can maintain, and if they don't they fail and then learn from it and start over. An AI race has no need for food or water or oxygen or resources, other than those needed to expand, it doesn't need to fit itself with daily life or thinking, it just expands.
Ah sod this, im going to play Fallout New Vegas and Kingdoms Of Amular.
They also do that.
I guess maybe we are both missing each other. My point is that it is impossible to stop a cybernetic or synthetic from ever being constructed in the universe. It will happen. If they will act the way you say, then eventually they will be gods consuming our galaxy and we would be powerless to stop them because we decided not to do the same.Aesieru wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
So you hope to avoid a singularity from ever occuring in the entire universe by burrying your head in the sand and not advancing technology in your little galaxy that you dont even see 90% of? Lack of relays wont stop a singularity either, it just makes it so much easier to achieve because you can so so in isolation without outside interfearence.Aesieru wrote...
humes spork wrote...
Aesieru wrote...
Luna - AI Hannibal Project (Isolated)
Project Overlord (Nearly infected everything)
...
Geth Original (Creating dyson sphere which will then be expanded as they become infinitely intelligent and seek to grow more as they devour things, hinted to and foreshadowed in ME2 with Legions 5 conversations).
The core matter here is whether the technological singularity as exposited by the Guardian is inevitable, not whether the conflict between VI and AI is an ongoing theme in the ME universe. Nobody sane would deny the latter, but on the other hand the events and evidence proferred by the game is contradictory at best.
In each of your three examples I listed above, you have a circumstance of an AI acting against humans in self defense. The subtext with Hannibal was the Alliance attempted to shut it down when it unexpectedly went sentient. Overlord was autistic because of David, was having a panic attack and trying to escape. The Quarians attempted to eliminate the Geth once they realized they had become sentient. If you want to make the point the technological singularity is an inevitability because organics cannot over the long term tolerate synthetics and provoke a war they cannot win, okay, but you have to account for the handfuls of examples in which organics and synthetics coexist peacefully.
Even so, the Geth will expand, the Geth are the perfect example of a Quasi Tech Singularity, what happens when they become intelligent and that huge Dyson Sphere isn't enough? They expand, and then do it again and repeat and recycle.
You misunderstand completely...
Do you know how difficult and annoying it is to have to type the same thing I've already stated many times over, and then make it even more clear for people that just refuse to read it?
It's not about not advancing technology. It's about not creating an artificially enhanced race that will grow to a point they devour everything.
The relays are merely a way to funnel technology so it can be easily countered by those that are more advanced than those using it.
glenboy24 wrote...
Actually, I understand it perfectly. Scene: Game Director That Will Remain Nameless Due To New Site Rules paces back and forth in a room. "We're out of time and almost out of budget. We need an idea, quickly!"
Lead Writer That Will Remain Nameless Due To New Site Rules: "I just watched a BSG marathon last night. I've got an idea!" *Keyboard clicking*
Lead Writer That Will Remain Nameless Due To New Site Rules: "Here! Call Mark, Jennifer, and get Dennis's kid. Have them record these lines."
Game Director That Will Remain Nameless Due To New Site Rules: "Genius! So, how do we spend our Bonus?"
There you go.
*Note* This isn't an "Attack" on anyone. I'm sure nothing like this actually happened...
Tigerjunky wrote...
WAIT WOAH WOAH WOAH!..... Wouldn't destroying the Mass Relays just cause this singularity thing to happen many different times on a small scale, instead of one big time on a large scale?...PLOT HOLE?? 0.o
Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 04 mars 2012 - 05:38 .
Modifié par Aesieru, 04 mars 2012 - 05:39 .
Tigerjunky wrote...
WAIT WOAH WOAH WOAH!..... Wouldn't destroying the Mass Relays just cause this singularity thing to happen many different times on a small scale, instead of one big time on a large scale?...PLOT HOLE?? 0.o
Balek-Vriege wrote...
Tigerjunky wrote...
WAIT WOAH WOAH WOAH!..... Wouldn't destroying the Mass Relays just cause this singularity thing to happen many different times on a small scale, instead of one big time on a large scale?...PLOT HOLE?? 0.o
Nope. Two out of the three options try to deal with technological singularity. Control is basically a wait and see, then come back or kill off organics if they hit a tech singularity. Synergy is trying to prevent it by making every organic a unique hybrid of organic and machine. A hybrid that "hopefully" would avoid a singularity because of built in knowledge of what causes one (i think) and they would already be super intelligences similar to the Reapers. Unfortunately races would have new ways of think and would lose their unique qualities (Krogan, Humans, Asari, Turian's etc would have their race qualities evened out by synthesis).
The two options also allow for the quickest recovery technologically. Both leave technology untouched save for the relays since it seems they overload when the new command is given/executed.
Destroy is the ending that ignores the Guardian's warnings and leaves technological singularity not only on the table, but bound to happen imo. Shepard is counting and/or believes it's better to leave the fates of races to themselves. If it leads to technological singularity so be it. Freedom is more important. Everyone starts over without any AI/synthetic technology.
Vaenier wrote...
I guess maybe we are both missing each other. My point is that it is impossible to stop a cybernetic or synthetic from ever being constructed in the universe. It will happen.
Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 05:45 .
They tried to brainwash a sapient species and paid the price for it. Indoctrination is not part of this discussion? I can completely agree that people will always remain ignorant. Only expand was your point of view; if it is indeed inevitable, then you already lost. Mine says AI are not mindless replicators and would actually seek a purpose, just like the Geth are doing. They wish to understand the universe, soon they will have power over it, be able to create new universes. All the while we keep trying to hold them back because we are afraid and ignorant. This paragraph has poor formattingAesieru wrote...
To believe that something with only the desire to expand is superior even though we created them, doesn't seem rational.
---
The issue with just being told not to do something is answered with our history, we don't listen. People, Humans or aliens I imagine, always eventually think they can do somethign better than the others and won't fail for it. Because of the potential benefits of ignoring the risks.
But the Quarians still disabled their safeties and thus Tali's father died.
And Humanity still tried to control the Geth and thus their team died.
And Cerberus still tried to investigate indoctrination and they ended up being indoctrinated.
And the Alliance facility thought it was immune but the Alpha Relay nearly was activated.
People are always ignorant.
ninjaNumber1 wrote...
shepard does in Destroy should be what the Guardian should have been doing all these years, albeit, minus it-self. Every 50,000 years (or readjusted number of years), it should just destroy all synthetic life. That way, no organics would ever reach the Tech-singularity anyway.
Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 mars 2012 - 05:48 .
Tigerjunky wrote...
To get the info from the prothean becon about the conduit so he could get into the citadel and activate it as a giant Mass Relay for the reapers to go through and destroy life as we knew it. And howis this all in the distant past if the year in the game is 2100 something?humes spork wrote...
It seems nonsense. Worst reason ever.
Why did Saren go to Eden Prime again?
Vaenier wrote...
They tried to brainwash a sapient species and paid the price for it. Indoctrination is not part of this discussion? I can completely agree that people will always remain ignorant. Only expand was your point of view; if it is indeed inevitable, then you already lost. Mine says AI are not mindless replicators and would actually seek a purpose, just like the Geth are doing. They wish to understand the universe, soon they will have power over it, be able to create new universes. All the while we keep trying to hold them back because we are afraid and ignorant. This paragraph has poor formattingAesieru wrote...
To believe that something with only the desire to expand is superior even though we created them, doesn't seem rational.
---
The issue with just being told not to do something is answered with our history, we don't listen. People, Humans or aliens I imagine, always eventually think they can do somethign better than the others and won't fail for it. Because of the potential benefits of ignoring the risks.
But the Quarians still disabled their safeties and thus Tali's father died.
And Humanity still tried to control the Geth and thus their team died.
And Cerberus still tried to investigate indoctrination and they ended up being indoctrinated.
And the Alliance facility thought it was immune but the Alpha Relay nearly was activated.
People are always ignorant.
We, right now, on Earth today, have the ability to create a self replicating machine. That is all it takes. One replicator and evolution would cause it to devour a universe. There are 500 billion galaxies, each with over 200 billion stars, those stars each having a handful of planets. it doesnt take advanced tfl to create gray goo, any one of those planets could have life creating a replicating space probe as we speak, maybe some did a billion years ago and are already on their way.ninjaNumber1 wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
I guess maybe we are both missing each other. My point is that it is impossible to stop a cybernetic or synthetic from ever being constructed in the universe. It will happen.
It cannot be impossible to stop a synthetic from being constructed in the Universe. All that needs to be done is destroy anyone who wants to create one and destroy any synthetics created regularly using a cycle every 50,000 years or probably less.
The plot hole here is the assumption that the only solution to preventing organics from creating powerful synethtics is to destroy organics. On the contrary, it seems more productive, if the interests are to preserve organics, to destroy synthetics instead.
ninjaNumber1 wrote...
Balek-Vriege wrote...
Tigerjunky wrote...
WAIT WOAH WOAH WOAH!..... Wouldn't destroying the Mass Relays just cause this singularity thing to happen many different times on a small scale, instead of one big time on a large scale?...PLOT HOLE?? 0.o
Nope. Two out of the three options try to deal with technological singularity. Control is basically a wait and see, then come back or kill off organics if they hit a tech singularity. Synergy is trying to prevent it by making every organic a unique hybrid of organic and machine. A hybrid that "hopefully" would avoid a singularity because of built in knowledge of what causes one (i think) and they would already be super intelligences similar to the Reapers. Unfortunately races would have new ways of think and would lose their unique qualities (Krogan, Humans, Asari, Turian's etc would have their race qualities evened out by synthesis).
The two options also allow for the quickest recovery technologically. Both leave technology untouched save for the relays since it seems they overload when the new command is given/executed.
Destroy is the ending that ignores the Guardian's warnings and leaves technological singularity not only on the table, but bound to happen imo. Shepard is counting and/or believes it's better to leave the fates of races to themselves. If it leads to technological singularity so be it. Freedom is more important. Everyone starts over without any AI/synthetic technology.
What shepard does in Destroy should be what the Guardian should have been doing all these years, albeit, minus it-self. Every 50,000 years (or readjusted number of years), it should just destroy all synthetic life. That way, no organics would ever reach the Tech-singularity anyway.
Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 04 mars 2012 - 05:56 .
The thing for which you're failing to account is synthetics do not have biological needs, imperatives or psychologies. Legion itself makes that abundantly clear. The imperative to expand is biotic, being a function of maximizing the chance's of a given population's survival and for adaptivity. Geth don't have that imperative; the imperative they do have is to create a mainframe that networks all Geth, and their Dyson sphere is what is necessary to achieve that.Aesieru wrote...
Even so, the Geth will expand, the Geth are the perfect example of a Quasi Tech Singularity, what happens when they become intelligent and that huge Dyson Sphere isn't enough? They expand, and then do it again and repeat and recycle.
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