325 réponses à ce sujet

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

"You still have the problem of "organic" nature. People with free will do stupid things sometimes and make stupid mistakes. All it takes is that one mad scientist, on a far off world to get things started. The Reaper plan is the most efficient from a logical point of view. Their moral judgement (well their creator; judgement) is that killing off advanced organics every 50K years is the safest way possible to prevent organics from ceasing to exist. "

If we know anything about organic nature today is that it evolves preserving only the right attributes which are needed and help evolution.

A short neck doesn't help to eat leaves from a tree. This attribute is slowly eliminated through the generations.
A mad scientist doesn't help advance society if his only purpose is to destroy it. The chance of a mad scientist doing the same thing again thins out. This attribute will not stand the centuries.

However the reapers STOP that same evolution. They erase any kind of progress and actually prevents everyone from CORRECTING those very mistakes.

If some giraffes have short necks you don't eliminiate every girrafe in existence.

The problem is that it's not a mistake you can come back from... an AI Technical Singularity is a 1 time end. There is nothing else after that.

But you can prevent that outcome.
That's what I'm saying.

[ninjaNumber1]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

This is what happens when you just kill of synthetics:

1.  Race progresses to a point and builds an AI that rebels.
2.  Reapers swoop in to save the day, killing them all.
3.  Race now has knowledge of the Reapers and fear their power.
4.  Race outlaws AI.
5.  Some people are not satisfied with not having AI to help them in their everyday lifes
6.  Some very smart people begin to hide AI advancement.  Some don't believe technological singularity will actually happen.  Some also study how to combat the Reapers.
7.  Eventually an AI is created that is or is close a technological singularity and guess what?  They know about the Reapers too.
8.  The AI does its best to hide itself from Reaper or Galactic eyes and ears.  It advances fast and surely far away from relay space.  Time is not an issue.
9.  When the AI are confident they're smarter and more powerful than the Reapers, or allow their presence to be known, they're confident they will win and end up winning.

Of course that whole plotline includes Reapers, which wouldn't actually exist without the Reaping.  Any volunteers? (reinforces the problems of points 5 and 6).

The problem with what you said above is that the same could be said of any Organic race as well.

Also, the reapers can infiltrate any race using indoctrination and mingle along to see who tries to develope synthetics. Seriously, to say that no one can control the development of synthetics is like saying no one can prevent someone from building mass weapons of destruction in their backyard.

If you can regulate weapons development, you can regulate AI research or anything else.

[Aesieru]

teh_619 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

Oh be serious. Even if the Reapers tell us why this is bad, there will always be someone who believes otherwise.
" My ancestors were plain dumb. I am very smart. I won't make such a mistake."
And BLAM!!! Very dumb mistake is made. Everyone's dead.

But that's why we have stopped killing each other with clubs.
That's why we've stopped being SO imperialistic.

...That's why we use condoms to prevent AIDS.
We actually learn from our mistakes. That's why human civilization is still here.
It doesn't take a mad scientist to stop thousands of sane ones.

Cerberus stopped the collectors and he was pretty much a mad scientist of sorts.

Anyway, AIDS isn't life-ending for the entire planet immediately, an AI Singularity does.

[humes spork]

Aesieru wrote...

According to his dialogs their imperative is to grow in intelligence which based on the dyson sphere analogy requires close proximity for them to become intelligent and consider new possibilities which would relate to needing even more to continue being intelligent. The Geth are inherently required to expand.

Yet this runs contrary to actual Geth actions. If the Geth imperative was indeed to expand as rapidly as possible to increase their own intelligence, they would not be sitting in deep space stations harvesting asteroids only as necessity dictates, banking resources over the course of centuries to construct their Dyson sphere at a snail's pace. Nor would they have sit quietly in their own territory for two centuries, nor would they have left Quarian homeworlds relatively intact even going so far as to rebuild and caretake them for the Quarians' return. The geth already number in the trillions, they don't need any more -- they need to consolidate what they have into a single network. The impression the player gets is the geth don't have an active desire to create new runtimes.

If what you claim is true, their actions would be more consistent with something like the Replicators from the Stargate universe who do have a programmed imperative to expand at all cost.

[Aesieru]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

This is what happens when you just kill of synthetics:

1.  Race progresses to a point and builds an AI that rebels.
2.  Reapers swoop in to save the day, killing them all.
3.  Race now has knowledge of the Reapers and fear their power.
4.  Race outlaws AI.
5.  Some people are not satisfied with not having AI to help them in their everyday lifes
6.  Some very smart people begin to hide AI advancement.  Some don't believe technological singularity will actually happen.  Some also study how to combat the Reapers.
7.  Eventually an AI is created that is or is close a technological singularity and guess what?  They know about the Reapers too.
8.  The AI does its best to hide itself from Reaper or Galactic eyes and ears.  It advances fast and surely far away from relay space.  Time is not an issue.
9.  When the AI are confident they're smarter and more powerful than the Reapers, or allow their presence to be known, they're confident they will win and end up winning.

Of course that whole plotline includes Reapers, which wouldn't actually exist without the Reaping.  Any volunteers? (reinforces the problems of points 5 and 6).

The problem with what you said above is that the same could be said of any Organic race as well.

Also, the reapers can infiltrate any race using indoctrination and mingle along to see who tries to develope synthetics. Seriously, to say that no one can control the development of synthetics is like saying no one can prevent someone from building mass weapons of destruction in their backyard.

If you can regulate weapons development, you can regulate AI research or anything else.

People have actually developed nuclear weapons in their back yard, the FBI was upset.

[Aesieru]

humes spork wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

According to his dialogs their imperative is to grow in intelligence which based on the dyson sphere analogy requires close proximity for them to become intelligent and consider new possibilities which would relate to needing even more to continue being intelligent. The Geth are inherently required to expand.

Yet this runs contrary to actual Geth actions. If the Geth imperative was indeed to expand as rapidly as possible to increase their own intelligence, they would not be sitting in deep space stations harvesting asteroids only as necessity dictates, banking resources over the course of centuries to construct their Dyson sphere at a snail's pace. Nor would they have sit quietly in their own territory for two centuries, nor would they have left Quarian homeworlds relatively intact even going so far as to rebuild and caretake them for the Quarians' return. The geth already number in the trillions, they don't need any more -- they need to consolidate what they have into a single network. The impression the player gets is the geth don't have an active desire to create new runtimes.

If what you claim is true, their actions would be more consistent with something like the Replicators from the Stargate universe who do have a programmed imperative to expand at all cost.

Yes the replicators are more expanding because it's their drive and to reproduce.

The Geth WANT to be more intelligent and they desire to be able to be independently thinking yet communal, like the Reapers. They will advance constantly in an attempt to do that.

[Balek-Vriege]

teh_619 wrote...

"You still have the problem of "organic" nature. People with free will do stupid things sometimes and make stupid mistakes. All it takes is that one mad scientist, on a far off world to get things started. The Reaper plan is the most efficient from a logical point of view. Their moral judgement (well their creator; judgement) is that killing off advanced organics every 50K years is the safest way possible to prevent organics from ceasing to exist. "

If we know anything about organic nature today is that it evolves preserving only the right attributes which are needed and help evolution.

A short neck doesn't help to eat leaves from a tree. This attribute is slowly eliminated through the generations.
A mad scientist doesn't help advance society if his only purpose is to destroy it. The chance of a mad scientist doing the same thing again thins out. This attribute will not stand the centuries.

However the reapers STOP that same evolution. They erase any kind of progress and actually prevents everyone from CORRECTING those very mistakes.

If some giraffes have short necks you don't eliminiate every girrafe in existence.

A short neck does make it harder to get leaves from a tree however.  With high intelligence that leads to using a tool to get those leaves. So much so the epic tool of leaf eating is created and begins to eats all the leaves in the world, killings every bit of vegetation and thereby making creator extinct.


It doesn't have to be a mad scientist either.  It just has to be someone who wants to make things easier on themselves and others.  That's the whole reason behind progress and that's why we're probably doomed, both in ME universe and our own, to a technological singularity.

[Aesieru]

teh_619 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

"You still have the problem of "organic" nature. People with free will do stupid things sometimes and make stupid mistakes. All it takes is that one mad scientist, on a far off world to get things started. The Reaper plan is the most efficient from a logical point of view. Their moral judgement (well their creator; judgement) is that killing off advanced organics every 50K years is the safest way possible to prevent organics from ceasing to exist. "

If we know anything about organic nature today is that it evolves preserving only the right attributes which are needed and help evolution.

A short neck doesn't help to eat leaves from a tree. This attribute is slowly eliminated through the generations.
A mad scientist doesn't help advance society if his only purpose is to destroy it. The chance of a mad scientist doing the same thing again thins out. This attribute will not stand the centuries.

However the reapers STOP that same evolution. They erase any kind of progress and actually prevents everyone from CORRECTING those very mistakes.

If some giraffes have short necks you don't eliminiate every girrafe in existence.

The problem is that it's not a mistake you can come back from... an AI Technical Singularity is a 1 time end. There is nothing else after that.

But you can prevent that outcome.
That's what I'm saying.

With 100% oversight of everything in existence, yes. But we know for a fact there is no such thing as 100% oversight.

Some shadowy organization will try or some person will stumble upon it, or some genius will make something and then it will make something, or it will be secretly.

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

Oh be serious. Even if the Reapers tell us why this is bad, there will always be someone who believes otherwise.
" My ancestors were plain dumb. I am very smart. I won't make such a mistake."
And BLAM!!! Very dumb mistake is made. Everyone's dead.

But that's why we have stopped killing each other with clubs.
That's why we've stopped being SO imperialistic.

...That's why we use condoms to prevent AIDS.
We actually learn from our mistakes. That's why human civilization is still here.
It doesn't take a mad scientist to stop thousands of sane ones.

Cerberus stopped the collectors and he was pretty much a mad scientist of sorts.

Anyway, AIDS isn't life-ending for the entire planet immediately, an AI Singularity does.

I agree. However, through knowledge, that outcome can be prevented.
Destroying everything repeatedly just because THAT might happen is clearly the wrong way to do things.
Reapers have the knowledge. It's not beyond human comprehension.

[WizenSlinky0]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Actually they make each race into a Reaper so it does get preserved.

As for synthetics, it's very possible for spur of the moment rebellions to occur at any time and potentially if the organic race was advanced enough past a certain point, they could seize all that advanced technology through a virus or some sort and potentially fight off the reapers.

Worse is the fear that an AI might advance beyond the stagnation prison of the relays and LEAVE the confines of the galaxy or relays, thus allowing them to go off and deplete the galaxy and potentially other galaxies at their behest. That is the real danger the possibility for them to stealthily leave.

See, here is what I don't understand. Lets say reapers arrive today and destroy every single AI advancement we have including those involved in it. They will also make it known that they are what our AI advances will end up becoming and would also end up wiping us out.

Would we then immediately go back to rebuilding our AI? We would realize what we might create and at least hold it off for some generations until some one else restarts the same cycle. Then reapers can come again and we are once again reminded of the threat etc etc.

If you want to be more precise, maybe the reapers can visit and destroy ALL tech advancements to put everyone back a lot more years.

In any case, my point is that the destruction of masses of organics is unneccesarry if the sole goal is to preserve organic life and prevent a tech singularity. There are other better methods available that are less wasteful.

Yes, we would immediatly go back to building AI. Or if not immediatly within about 1000 years. And we'd have the technology to start the singularity before the reapers ever start a new cycle. AI's aren't limited by the things humans are like development time, water, air, food. A central point of the series seems to be organic Hubris in believing they can both develop AND control AI. Someone, somewhere will continue building them. Because they are powerful powerful tools and potential weapons against their enemies.

The reapers can't just show up and destroy our tech without killing us in the process. We'd be shooting at them the entire time. People are not just going to give up everything they know. And it's not so easy to destroy "technology advancements". There's back-up's upon back-up's and copies upon copies.

And what happens if humanity creates AI's superior to even the reapers themselves and they can't stop them? There's that risk as well.

No, AI's can potentially grow too fast and too abruptly where as organics are predictable. At least in terms of the cycle that was the best choice they could have made. Not that the cycle is right or the best option. But yeah.

[ninjaNumber1]

Aesieru wrote...

AI's can advance faster than Humans because of the fact that everything in the AI is meant for advancement Humanity is a community not a single entity of many programs. Community's don't all work together, they don't all think the same thing, and they have needs and food and bathrooms and relaxation and breaks. They can't just constantly work 100% all the time at rapid-pace to evolve themselves constantly.

Organic races can be measured and stopped, an AI can pop up and destroy everything. Imagine if the Overlord virus was ever actually properly broadcast...

First thing to realize is that what I am pointing out here is a logical inconsistency. So it is possible to come up with some possible scenario that can reconcile this inconsistency. But a narrative is believable depending on the plausibility of this possible scenario you describe.

In the above case, what you say seems implausible.

You are stating that it is possible for the reapers to gauge the development rate of an Organic race accurately compared to the development of a synethtic race. That seems highly unlikely.

I can predict when a computation will solve a problem. But it is much harder for me to guess when a human being will solve a problem.

So while what you say might reconcile the inconsistency, it seems implausible.

This is what my problem is with the mass effect 3 ending. It seems logically inconsistent. The only way to reconcile this inconsistency requires belief in something implausible along the lines of what you are stating.

[ninjaNumber1]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

And what happens if humanity creates AI's superior to even the reapers themselves and they can't stop them? There's that risk as well.

For the premise of Mass Effect 3 to work, such a scenario is impossible. For, if a civilsation can create tech that can rival the reapers, that would mean the reapers can't even gauge the progress of organics. If they can't even gauge the progress of organics, its more than possible that their solution of eliminating organics is also going to run in to the same problem you mention.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 04 mars 2012 - 07:30 .

[Balek-Vriege]

darkangelvxvx wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

darkangelvxvx wrote...

There's actually a solid point to be made in what Ninja stated.  If they're trying to preserve life, then they should simly kill off Synthetics when they arise.  Not simply kill everyone that has the ability to create them and "Start over."  

The "depleting resources of the galaxy"  bit is kinda morose at best.


The entire story, It reminds me of a twisted "Garden of Eden" complex.  The Reapers are trying to establish a perfect balance so that nothing ever falters, nothing ever goes out of balance, while they leave the apples right in the middle of the garden with a big sign on the tree that says, "Don't eat these, or we'll come kill you."


People come and eat the apples, and POOF, Reapers come, and reset the garden.  Which ultimately dithers the balance of life.

The apples in this case are "Synthetics" and "The Mass Relays"

My ultimate question is... What if the Geth ultimately become peaceful?  What if The Reaper's logic is flawed?  What if Legion is actually able to convince the others to commune with humanity?  

I dunno it just sounds really disheveled to me.

This is what happens when you just kill of synthetics:

1.  Race progresses to a point and builds an AI that rebels.
2.  Reapers swoop in to save the day, killing them all.
3.  Race now has knowledge of the Reapers and fear their power.
4.  Race outlaws AI.
5.  Some people are not satisfied with not having AI to help them in their everyday lifes
6.  Some very smart people begin to hide AI advancement.  Some don't believe technological singularity will actually happen.  Some also study how to combat the Reapers.
7.  Eventually an AI is created that is or is close a technological singularity and guess what?  They know about the Reapers too.
8.  The AI does its best to hide itself from Reaper or Galactic eyes and ears.  It advances fast and surely far away from relay space.  Time is not an issue.
9.  When the AI are confident they're smarter and more powerful than the Reapers, or allow their presence to be known, they're confident they will win and end up winning.

Of course that whole plotline includes Reapers, which wouldn't actually exist without the Reaping.  Any volunteers? (reinforces the problems of points 5 and 6).

That sounds like a better plot than what we actually have tbh.  Even though its the plot of iRobot.

Not really since it's not logical for a race as advanced as those who created the Reapers.  It has also been done a thousand times.  If you have no problem killing organics for the greater good, have all the time in the world, can be independent of the galaxy and could set up a trap and plan that could be flawlessly executed over and over, why would you risk a far lesser plan in an attempt to not kill anyone?  To them the stakes were obviously too high or their own personal distaster with AI too great.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 04 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[Turel11234]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Actually they make each race into a Reaper so it does get preserved.

As for synthetics, it's very possible for spur of the moment rebellions to occur at any time and potentially if the organic race was advanced enough past a certain point, they could seize all that advanced technology through a virus or some sort and potentially fight off the reapers.

Worse is the fear that an AI might advance beyond the stagnation prison of the relays and LEAVE the confines of the galaxy or relays, thus allowing them to go off and deplete the galaxy and potentially other galaxies at their behest. That is the real danger the possibility for them to stealthily leave.

See, here is what I don't understand. Lets say reapers arrive today and destroy every single AI advancement we have including those involved in it. They will also make it known that they are what our AI advances will end up becoming and would also end up wiping us out.

Would we then immediately go back to rebuilding our AI? We would realize what we might create and at least hold it off for some generations until some one else restarts the same cycle. Then reapers can come again and we are once again reminded of the threat etc etc.

If you want to be more precise, maybe the reapers can visit and destroy ALL tech advancements to put everyone back a lot more years.

In any case, my point is that the destruction of masses of organics is unneccesarry if the sole goal is to preserve organic life and prevent a tech singularity. There are other better methods available that are less wasteful.

Yes, we would immediatly go back to building AI. Or if not immediatly within about 1000 years. And we'd have the technology to start the singularity before the reapers ever start a new cycle. AI's aren't limited by the things humans are like development time, water, air, food. A central point of the series seems to be organic Hubris in believing they can both develop AND control AI. Someone, somewhere will continue building them. Because they are powerful powerful tools and potential weapons against their enemies.

The reapers can't just show up and destroy our tech without killing us in the process. We'd be shooting at them the entire time. People are not just going to give up everything they know. And it's not so easy to destroy "technology advancements". There's back-up's upon back-up's and copies upon copies.

And what happens if humanity creates AI's superior to even the reapers themselves and they can't stop them? There's that risk as well.

No, AI's can potentially grow too fast and too abruptly where as organics are predictable. At least in terms of the cycle that was the best choice they could have made. Not that the cycle is right or the best option. But yeah.

Exactly, bro.
You nailed it.

[xtorma]

Ok you have convinced me that the reapers a good guys, now convince me they are smart, because the way they went about getting to the citadel was just extremley stupid. I am a limited organic who still believes it's impossible for anything with mass to break the light barrier, yet i can come up with a better plan than the reapers did.

I mean all soverign had to do was interface with the citadel for a few minutes to call all the other reapers in. why the hell go through all that other stuff.

contact the council , make nice. toss them some technology to convince them you are advanced. say you want to share. ask to be allowed to interface with the citadel call in the other reapers. end of story.

If you want it to be dramatic, send in the collectors have them harvest a few colonies, then storm in and in a huge display destroy the collectors save a few colonies, become the galactic hero , go to the citadel to get your medal, call in the rest of the reapers and bingo, done deal.

[Aesieru]

Turel, do you realize how many times I have posted that exact explanation in simpler and simpler forms?

[teh_619]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

"You still have the problem of "organic" nature. People with free will do stupid things sometimes and make stupid mistakes. All it takes is that one mad scientist, on a far off world to get things started. The Reaper plan is the most efficient from a logical point of view. Their moral judgement (well their creator; judgement) is that killing off advanced organics every 50K years is the safest way possible to prevent organics from ceasing to exist. "

If we know anything about organic nature today is that it evolves preserving only the right attributes which are needed and help evolution.

A short neck doesn't help to eat leaves from a tree. This attribute is slowly eliminated through the generations.
A mad scientist doesn't help advance society if his only purpose is to destroy it. The chance of a mad scientist doing the same thing again thins out. This attribute will not stand the centuries.

However the reapers STOP that same evolution. They erase any kind of progress and actually prevents everyone from CORRECTING those very mistakes.

If some giraffes have short necks you don't eliminiate every girrafe in existence.

A short neck does make it harder to get leaves from a tree however.  With high intelligence that leads to using a tool to get those leaves. So much so the epic tool of leaf eating is created and begins to eats all the leaves in the world, killings every bit of vegetation and thereby making creator extinct.


It doesn't have to be a mad scientist either.  It just has to be someone who wants to make things easier on themselves and others.  That's the whole reason behind progress and that's why we're probably doomed, both in ME universe and our own, to a technological singularity.

"With high intelligence that leads to"...

That's not how evolution works.

If giraffes somehow managed to kill a part of vegeation due to overpopulation, that would mean they would thrive in numbers. That's where TIGERS would come and balance things out.

You might say "that's exactly what reapers do!"

Nope. The reapers, no matter what, DESTROY life. It doesn't matter if the giraffe actually DOES eat all the vegetation, in this case. They get destroyed anyway. That's not balance.

[Aesieru]

xtorma wrote...

Ok you have convinced me that the reapers a good guys, now convince me they are smart, because the way they went about getting to the citadel was just extremley stupid. I am a limited organic who still believes it's impossible for anything with mass to break the light barrier, yet i can come up with a better plan than the reapers did.

I mean all soverign had to do was interface with the citadel for a few minutes to call all the other reapers in. why the hell go through all that other stuff.

contact the council , make nice. toss them some technology to convince them you are advanced. say you want to share. ask to be allowed to interface with the citadel call in the other reapers. end of story.

If you want it to be dramatic, send in the collectors have them harvest a few colonies, then storm in and in a huge display destroy the collectors save a few colonies, become the galactic hero , go to the citadel to get your medal, call in the rest of the reapers and bingo, done deal.

Because their way has worked for millions of years or longer, and logically after they do kill us all and reset the galaxy and repair the Citadel and all that jazz, they will set up a new vanguard and potentially a few more failsafes.

Also, they used to just remotely send a signal but the Protheans blocked that secretly, now this time Sovereign ran into that problem and was figuring out a way to deal with the problem.

Modifié par Aesieru, 04 mars 2012 - 07:36 .

[Aesieru]

teh_619 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

"You still have the problem of "organic" nature. People with free will do stupid things sometimes and make stupid mistakes. All it takes is that one mad scientist, on a far off world to get things started. The Reaper plan is the most efficient from a logical point of view. Their moral judgement (well their creator; judgement) is that killing off advanced organics every 50K years is the safest way possible to prevent organics from ceasing to exist. "

If we know anything about organic nature today is that it evolves preserving only the right attributes which are needed and help evolution.

A short neck doesn't help to eat leaves from a tree. This attribute is slowly eliminated through the generations.
A mad scientist doesn't help advance society if his only purpose is to destroy it. The chance of a mad scientist doing the same thing again thins out. This attribute will not stand the centuries.

However the reapers STOP that same evolution. They erase any kind of progress and actually prevents everyone from CORRECTING those very mistakes.

If some giraffes have short necks you don't eliminiate every girrafe in existence.

A short neck does make it harder to get leaves from a tree however.  With high intelligence that leads to using a tool to get those leaves. So much so the epic tool of leaf eating is created and begins to eats all the leaves in the world, killings every bit of vegetation and thereby making creator extinct.


It doesn't have to be a mad scientist either.  It just has to be someone who wants to make things easier on themselves and others.  That's the whole reason behind progress and that's why we're probably doomed, both in ME universe and our own, to a technological singularity.

"With high intelligence that leads to"...

That's not how evolution works.

If giraffes somehow managed to kill a part of vegeation due to overpopulation, that would mean they would thrive in numbers. That's where TIGERS would come and balance things out.

You might say "that's exactly what reapers do!"

Nope. The reapers, no matter what, DESTROY life. It doesn't matter if the giraffe actually DOES eat all the vegetation, in this case. They get destroyed anyway. That's not balance.

The Reaper Vanguard is meant to only call them in when a threat occurs.

[Turel11234]

Aesieru wrote...

Turel, do you realize how many times I have posted that exact explanation in simpler and simpler forms?

I feel you man...
Did you see my mega wall'o text post?
Honestly, it seems to me that either people are to narrowminded to understand the scale of the problem and the intricacies of reapers solution or....
...or they just want to be negative for sake of being negative because it ain't what they were expecting.

[ninjaNumber1]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Not really since it's not logical for a race as advanced as those who created the Reapers.  It has also been done a thousand times.  If you have no problem killing organics for the greater good, have all the time in the world, can be independent of the galaxy and could set up a trap and plan that would could be flawlessly executed over and over, why would you risk the lesser plan in an attempt to not kill anyone?  To them the stakes were obviously too high or their own personal distaster with AI too great.

But the point is that the premise of ME3 seems to indicate that both risks are equal.

Option 1: Destroy synthetics and let Organics live

The risk people keep brining up is that then they will create synthetics that might be much more advanced

But this is unlikely due to

1) The reapers can keep individuals in all the races to monitor the progress
2) It would mean that the reapers cannot gauge organic development accurately

But if (2) is true, then the 50k cycl it-self is a problem because when they come to eliminate the Organics, they might be superior to the reapers.

So it seems that if we admit that there is a high risk the synthetics will be superior to reapers when they come back, then organics could also be superior to reapers when they come back in 50k years. OR, simply put, the organics might have already created the synethetic life that is superior to reapers.

Now any explanation that you can come up with to answer the above will also show that leaving organics while destryoing synthetics also has no risk. Therefore, it still seems illogical for the reapers to pursue their path in the games.

[teh_619]

I just noticed another fallacy.
Reapers aren't synthetic too.

They destroy civilizations. So basically they do exactly what they're trying to stop.
They're AI's that're trying AI's to destroy civilizations by destroying civilizations.

That can just destroy themselves. That would be actually a solution which would be on terms with what they're trying to do.

[Aesieru]

Turel11234 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Turel, do you realize how many times I have posted that exact explanation in simpler and simpler forms?

I feel you man...
Did you see my mega wall'o text post?
Honestly, it seems to me that either people are to narrowminded to understand the scale of the problem and the intricacies of reapers solution or....
...or they just want to be negative for sake of being negative because it ain't what they were expecting.

No what happens is this:

A random guy or girl comes to the forum because they saw or heard or know about the possible ending or something about the reapers, they disagree, they don't look at the lore, the codex, the games, or anything, they misinterpret everything, they insult it and say "HAH THAT STUPID", and then they ask questions about things that aren't even actually factual. Then it's a bad ending  / game / whatever / preorder cancelled situation because they just don't think it's good, which is fine, but then they force that on everyone else and then the other out of context people come by and start and blah blah blah.

Also, people come to threads, post something, and never read any of the other posts.

[Aesieru]

teh_619 wrote...

I just noticed another fallacy.
Reapers aren't synthetic too.

They destroy civilizations. So basically they do exactly what they're trying to stop.
They're AI's that're trying AI's to destroy civilizations by destroying civilizations.

That can just destroy themselves. That would be actually a solution which would be on terms with what they're trying to do.

Reapers are not AI's.

They are a Synthetic-Organic composition of each race they "reap". They then have this form (the Human form for instance in ME2) covered by a shell that is what each reaper wears.

[WizenSlinky0]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

And what happens if humanity creates AI's superior to even the reapers themselves and they can't stop them? There's that risk as well.

For the premise of Mass Effect 3 to work, such a scenario is impossible. For, if a civilsation can create tech that can rival the reapers, that would mean the reapers can't even gauge the progress of organics. If they can't even gauge the progress of organics, its more than possible that their solution of eliminating organics is also going to run in to the same problem you mention.

It's only impossible because the reapers don't give us the chance. Every 50,000 years they waddle up and kill all of us. If they left us with just a bunch of destroyed AI we'd have around 49,000 years to screw up the entire universe with overwelmingly powerful AI's since we'd still have all our technlogical knowledge, scientists, etc. There's a reason they target us when they do. Once we break free from their technology the reapers plan falls apart.

The protheans were dangerously close to cracking the relays. Given even just another 1000 years I think the reapers would have had their hands full with them.

Another central premise of the games is the speed of which we evolve technologically.

As I said, organics are predictable. How strong the AI's they make are irrelevent to the predictions. Once they start dabbling it is human nature to continue and continue to push the boundaries until something stops us. It doesn't matter how many warnings or close calls we have. The Geth was a close call and we know the alliance has secret AI testing labs. You think the other races don't have them too? We don't care about the consequences until they happen. If they happen and we survive it's just testament that we're stronger and should keep going.