30 réponses à ce sujet

[Timortis]

I understand that choice in these games is many times an illusion, especially when it comes to the main story. When a character is really not essential to the plot however, and is just there for flavor, why force him/her on the player? Why must we have a dialog tree with Oghren, when he intercepts us on the way to the Deep Roads, that's essentially something like:

1. Sure you're welcome to join
2. I don't want you but you can join
3. I don't need you, why should I let you join?

and whe you pick number 3, it goes back to the first 2? This is so frustrating for me as a player, more frustrating than him automatically joining the group. And I've played the whole scene with him and Branka, and it really isn't essential to the whole anvil story. Him being there doesn't change anything, it's just for flavor. If, as a player, I don't like that flavor, why shouldn't I be allowed to turn him down in a second playthrough? I understand you want people to see all the hard work you put into writing these characters, but when they're not essential, Bioware, I beg you, please don't force them on us like this.

[Riona45]

deleted

Modifié par Riona45, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:27 .

[Cammy2709]

I can see your point here, but technically Oghren is only there for said quest-line. After that you can tell him where to go if need be. I personally think Oghren is hilarious and a pretty valuable party member in the late stages. But that's my opinion.

[RunCDFirst]

I believe you actually need Oghren for that quest since... you know... you have no idea how to navigate the Deep Roads. You can dump almost every character after you get them and a great deal of them you can dump before they even join you.

[The Angry One]

Us Suikoden players know this phenomenon all too well, I call it the Gremio rule.

Characters force their way into a party slot for specific plot events whether you like it or not, this happens in virtually all RPGs with parties. It doesn't happen much in DA though so it's not really an issue.

[Cursek]

Once they join, everyone except Alistair can be booted from your story, as he's the only must in terms of canon I believe.

[Edwind1]

A good question to be honest. Its worse beacoue when you come to the map where anwil is you need to have him in active party (not just in your camp) to reach that map. You cant make the map transition to there if you don't have him in your party (and It pissed me too couse it had me to kick one of my 3 favorite party members, and what did his pressence accomplish i couldn't do without him (admittedly the fight for the anvil was made easier beacouse i had him in my party).

You dont need Ogren to navigate the deep road -i navigated it with Alistair, Wyne, Liliana and me a human mage. No ogren until after i killed the brood mother and i wanted to make last transition. Why?

Modifié par Edwind1, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:34 .

[The Angry One]

Cursek wrote...

Once they join, everyone except Alistair can be booted from your story, as he's the only must in terms of canon I believe.

Of course there's a specific way to boot Alistair too.

[konfeta]

Forced party members that force you to kick one of your own is a design element that needs to die. This game already has multiple instances where you get a NPC ally joining you without becoming a controllable party member, so that preemptively shuts down the "but the UI is not built for it" excuse.

[Herr Uhl]

How do you finish the "andrastes ashes" quest if you don't have a full party. How do you make the bridge?

[Timortis]

Cursek wrote...

Once they join, everyone except Alistair can be booted from your story, as he's the only must in terms of canon I believe.

Oghren can't be booted. To add insult to injury, if you try to talk to him to ask him to leave, you don't get a dialog, he only says something like "don't bother me".

And to the person who said he's essential, you need him to find your way etc, no, it's not true. You don't have to keep him in the active group until the anvil event, at which point, he once again is forcefully added to the group. You can navigate the Deep Roads just fine without him. And really, you can play the whole thing without ever talking to him, and the couple of lines he says to Branka change absolutely nothing, they're not essential to the story.

[RunCDFirst]

I believe it's for non-combat story reasons that Oghren is forced into your party. I can understand why he has to be there for the Deep Roads, in theory they are a maze of underground passages with innumerable collapsed tunnels and unmarked routes that would make it impossible for an outsider to navigate.
But aside from then, I'm hard pressed to think of another time when you're forced to take someone else with you. Maybe the ending?
Maybe without Oghren present, Branka would just kill you. So, to save you from having to reload, the game just forces Oghren with you .

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:49 .

[Cursek]

The Angry One wrote...

Cursek wrote...

Once they join, everyone except Alistair can be booted from your story, as he's the only must in terms of canon I believe.

Of course there's a specific way to boot Alistair too.

Yes, though it's a sequence of actions rather than pointing at the road with him . I'm trying not to spoil too much, lol.

[marshalleck]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I believe it's for non-combat story reasons that Oghren is forced into your party. I can understand why he has to be there for the Deep Roads, in theory they are a maze of underground passages with innumerable collapsed tunnels and unmarked routes that would make it impossible for an outsider to navigate.

So he's not forced into the player's party if the player is a dwarf?

Oh wait.

Well, there goes that "you need him as a guide" theory.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Timortis]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I believe it's for non-combat story reasons that Oghren is forced into your party. I can understand why he has to be there for the Deep Roads, in theory they are a maze of underground passages with innumerable collapsed tunnels and unmarked routes that would make it impossible for an outsider to navigate.
But aside from then, I'm hard pressed to think of another time when you're forced to take someone else with you. Maybe the ending?
Maybe without Oghren present, Branka would just kill you. So, to save you from having to reload, the game just forces Oghren with you .

Why? She already tries to kill you, what does Oghren change? Like I said, you can navigate all the way to the anvil without having Oghren in the active group, so he's not there for that. He's not there for some special plot event that couldn't happen without him either. He's just there, so we get to hear him say a couple of lines to his wife, which have no effect on the outcome. The story works without him.

[marshalleck]

This irritates me too, because forcing new characters into a group the player has been delicately balancing just throws everything out of whack. I got rid of Oghren as soon as I could and never put him back in my group, so whatever Bioware was trying to do to get me to appreciate the NPC's story or whatever, it didn't work.

No amount of coaxing or cajoling from the developers will make me want to tolerate the company of a callow drunkard who can't go 2 minutes without making fart jokes.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:57 .

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...
So he's not forced into the player's party if the player is a dwarf?

Oh wait.

Well, there goes that "you need him as a guide" theory.

Not really. No one knows where the Anvil of the Void is and Oghren mentions how he knows what signs to look for that indicate Branka's in the area. You're searching for Branka and not the Anvil anyway, so it's more important to have a guide that can track her. I doubt every dwarf is as intimate with Branka as Oghren is and would know what 'ticks in the walls' they would have to look for.

As for actually navigating the area and the dialogues that occur, it was awhile ago that I played that section so I'll just duck out of that conversation.

[Obliterati]

marshalleck wrote...

This irritates me too, because forcing new characters into a group the player has been delicately balancing just throws everything out of whack. I got rid of Oghren as soon as I could and never put him back in my group, so whatever Bioware was trying to do to get me to appreciate the NPC's story or whatever, it didn't work.

Same here. Ohgren is the only time I've used the respec potion mod, for exactly this reason.

I don't have anything against the guy, but now I've got to redo his stats and equiptment to make him fit in...why can't I just use Sten, and find a map or something?

[marshalleck]

Obliterati wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

This irritates me too, because forcing new characters into a group the player has been delicately balancing just throws everything out of whack. I got rid of Oghren as soon as I could and never put him back in my group, so whatever Bioware was trying to do to get me to appreciate the NPC's story or whatever, it didn't work.

Same here. Ohgren is the only time I've used the respec potion mod, for exactly this reason.

I don't have anything against the guy, but now I've got to redo his stats and equiptment to make him fit in...why can't I just use Sten, and find a map or something?

My group up to that point was myself (tank warrior) Leliana for traps and locks, Wynne for healing and Morrigan for damage/CC. WTF am I supposed to do with Oghren at that point? Lose my rogue utility? Lose my healing, or my damage/crowd control? Not acceptable, period, because a warrior can't even come close to replacing a mage for the purposes of damage and CC thanks to the game's skewed balance. It's just damned annoying to have to throw off the balance I had achieved for nearly the entire game, since Orzammar was the last place I was visiting--each character had been skilled out to function together as a group. I ended up hating the Deep Roads because of this.

Characters that Bioware feels are plot-critical should just follow along the group as an invisible observer through the normal gameplay, appearing only for cutscenes if the player doesn't want them in the group.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:08 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well no matter how you put it, it is terribly fitting to Oghren's personality to force himself into your party and not taking a no for an answer... Though they should have made him a forced member f the party from the moment you set out in search of Branka, and not just when you find her... For lore reasons, he is supposed to be your guide you know.

[JamesX]

Sometimes characters are necessary for the story. Otherwise you are dead-ended.
Guess the Programmer can give you the option to not accept Oghren's help then immediately cut to "The End - As the Wardens wander the Deep Roards for Eternality looking for Banka".
Do you like that better?

Modifié par JamesX, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:51 .

[bluehawktr]

JamesX wrote...

Sometimes characters are necessary for the story. Otherwise you are dead-ended.
Guess the Programmer can give you the option to not accept Oghren's help then immediately cut to "The End - As the Wardens wander the Deep Roards for Eternality looking for Banka".
Do you like that better?

well m8 4 that 2 happen bioware has 2 start making games like Elder Scrolls Series; but they don't, they like 2 give a very illusionary independence to the player so even if they put something like that in the story like u dont have 2 have him in group they will still make sure he will be where he needs to be. 
 but my problem is not forcing the chars. it is forcing unwanted talents. maybe i wanted sten a tank and oghren a dual weapons fighter. not only that if u r not a rogue urself u have 2 take leilana or zevran (if u diddnt kill him accidentially or knowingly) and he doesnt even have mechanical skills. When i played i went out with ali,wynne, lei. most others were useless unless for a specific thing. so i think bioware should think this in the second game and give us a more free run over the chars. so u can mold them 2 ur liking and more conversation options. what if i wanted 2 have loghain and alistair?

[dannythefool]

It's even more annoying (for me personally that is) that if you don't want to take Wynne, you have to kill her...

[marshalleck]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well no matter how you put it, it is terribly fitting to Oghren's personality to force himself into your party and not taking a no for an answer... Though they should have made him a forced member f the party from the moment you set out in search of Branka, and not just when you find her... For lore reasons, he is supposed to be your guide you know.

So, for lore reasons, where did my fourth party member go? A magical bag of holding?

[Timortis]

dannythefool wrote...

It's even more annoying (for me personally that is) that if you don't want to take Wynne, you have to kill her...

I would be very happy if I had the option to kill Oghren.