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Anybody enraged by the ending, interested to rewrite the ultimate ending within us?


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#76
Aesieru

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Frankly I'm amazed that people don't imagine a happy ending for themselves. It's like they have to be spoon-fed, despite the clamor for being an RPG in the first place. RPGs require player participation as well.

Oh, we do. Most certainly. I still think that giving us hopeful conversations with LIs like the one with Garrus and then making an ending that heavily suggests - since you're right, it doesn't say so definitely - that they'll never see each other again even if you get the supposedly "best" ending is cruel. Because you see, collective perception has weight, and this heavily suggested interpretation is an indication that that interpretation is what Bioware's intended. Headcanon is easy, but to know the writers are deliberately trying to sabotage a less grim scenario with their writing - how else can I interpret the ending scenario - is enraging.

Also I would be able to follow them there if the scenario wasn't so utterly contrived.


I already disputed your points, provided you reasons you're wrong, and politely gave you an indication of what was necessary and why the writing wasn't poor, I then sent this directly by PM to you for your convenience incase you overlooked it, but your posts seem to say you just disagree. There's a difference between rational disagreement, and irrational disagreement because you simply don't like it.

#77
bandfred

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As someone has stated earlier, make the Guardian voiced by the person who died on Virmire.

#78
Squadrito

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What the ****,

#79
Ieldra

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Aesieru wrote...
I am all for an ending you agree with, provided it at makes certain to take into account the fact that the Relays were a trap and will be as long as we don't actually understand anything about their technology (we have very very very primitive com systems built off the relays but that's only because they use the relay to make it work). It may be misunderstood that I am not nay or yay for the endings, I simply understand them and they provide a good debate opportunity against the many people arguing without context or without understanding of the plot that has been blatantly there and apparent for many years since the series was released and then expanded upon through books, comics, and of course the games.

No, *you* don't understand them. In the leaked script, the statement about the relays being destroyed only applied to the Destroy ending. Because well, that makes most sense. In Control, the Reapers aren't destroyed so why should the relays be? This was a choice between "I dont believe in that Singularity scenario" and "I don't believe in the technology trap scenario". Why did they change it? Forcing one of those beliefs on our Shepards? Why would they do that? I say it's because too many testers felt Control was the best ending while they intended Destroy to be the ending you're supposed to take. And then they tweaked the other scnearios so that the relays would always blow and Shepard is said to "die" in Control which makes even less sense, because you know, the technology trap scenario isn't convincing enough on its own so they had to add enough bad stuff to it so that the idea that Destroy was the ending you're supposed to take is hammered home.

Don't believe me? They did something similar for DA2, too. I heard that admission myself from...hmm...don't recall who exactly it was - in person at GamesCom 2011. If the "relays are destroyed" scenario had been intended from the start, it would fit more organically into the story. The very fact it's contrived is evidence enough that it was tweaked to make the "official" Paragon outcome more attractive.

To be totally clear: I do not buy the technology trap scenario and never did. It was never canonical above the fact that the relays were used by the Reapers as a trap for their purposes. Any more extensive interpretation was the prerogative of the player, to follow what certain characters said or not.

So your assertion is interpretation, and I hate interpretations forced on me. That's it.

#80
humes spork

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My dream ending is still after Shepard gathers the galaxy together to fight the Geth, the actual battle becomes the backdrop and setpiece for the conclusion of Shepard's story...which is Shepard since the Lazarus Project had become Indoctrinated himself, and the VS or LI confronts him just before the final battle. Depending on Shepard's reaction, he can surrender himself, break through the Indoctrination and use that against the Reapers to guarantee victory; get killed trying to escape; or even successfully escape, cause such chaos through the fleet the Reapers clean house, and is rewarded by becoming the dominant personality of the next Reaper and vanguard of the next cycle.

#81
Ieldra

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Aesieru wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Frankly I'm amazed that people don't imagine a happy ending for themselves. It's like they have to be spoon-fed, despite the clamor for being an RPG in the first place. RPGs require player participation as well.

Oh, we do. Most certainly. I still think that giving us hopeful conversations with LIs like the one with Garrus and then making an ending that heavily suggests - since you're right, it doesn't say so definitely - that they'll never see each other again even if you get the supposedly "best" ending is cruel. Because you see, collective perception has weight, and this heavily suggested interpretation is an indication that that interpretation is what Bioware's intended. Headcanon is easy, but to know the writers are deliberately trying to sabotage a less grim scenario with their writing - how else can I interpret the ending scenario - is enraging.

Also I would be able to follow them there if the scenario wasn't so utterly contrived.


I already disputed your points, provided you reasons you're wrong, and politely gave you an indication of what was necessary and why the writing wasn't poor, I then sent this directly by PM to you for your convenience incase you overlooked it, but your posts seem to say you just disagree. There's a difference between rational disagreement, and irrational disagreement because you simply don't like it.

Ah, I see where you're coming from. You're defending an ideology. Well, in that case it's no use arguing with you. There is no objective truth to any of your arguments, it's all interpretation. Some of it is supported by the games, some of it isn't.

What about "I do not buy into the technology trap argument" didn't you understand? All you had to put against it is an assertion that it's true. Sorry, not enough.

#82
Duncaaaaaan

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Yeah, I accidentally got spoilt on the basic premise of the ending, Reapers kill organics so that synthetics can't be made to kill organics, which is freaking stupid.

#83
Aesieru

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Some of the people in this argument are not debating rationally they are just screaming because they wanted something and they didn't get it, regardless of how stupid it would be to give it to them.

#84
Dean_the_Young

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Aesieru wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Frankly I'm amazed that people don't imagine a happy ending for themselves. It's like they have to be spoon-fed, despite the clamor for being an RPG in the first place. RPGs require player participation as well.

Oh, we do. Most certainly. I still think that giving us hopeful conversations with LIs like the one with Garrus and then making an ending that heavily suggests - since you're right, it doesn't say so definitely - that they'll never see each other again even if you get the supposedly "best" ending is cruel. Because you see, collective perception has weight, and this heavily suggested interpretation is an indication that that interpretation is what Bioware's intended. Headcanon is easy, but to know the writers are deliberately trying to sabotage a less grim scenario with their writing - how else can I interpret the ending scenario - is enraging.

Also I would be able to follow them there if the scenario wasn't so utterly contrived.


I already disputed your points, provided you reasons you're wrong, and politely gave you an indication of what was necessary and why the writing wasn't poor, I then sent this directly by PM to you for your convenience incase you overlooked it, but your posts seem to say you just disagree. There's a difference between rational disagreement, and irrational disagreement because you simply don't like it.

Fortunately, Ieldra is rational.

And a bit less inclined toward the 'Disagreement with me is wrong' fallacy.

#85
Aesieru

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Frankly I'm amazed that people don't imagine a happy ending for themselves. It's like they have to be spoon-fed, despite the clamor for being an RPG in the first place. RPGs require player participation as well.

Oh, we do. Most certainly. I still think that giving us hopeful conversations with LIs like the one with Garrus and then making an ending that heavily suggests - since you're right, it doesn't say so definitely - that they'll never see each other again even if you get the supposedly "best" ending is cruel. Because you see, collective perception has weight, and this heavily suggested interpretation is an indication that that interpretation is what Bioware's intended. Headcanon is easy, but to know the writers are deliberately trying to sabotage a less grim scenario with their writing - how else can I interpret the ending scenario - is enraging.

Also I would be able to follow them there if the scenario wasn't so utterly contrived.


I already disputed your points, provided you reasons you're wrong, and politely gave you an indication of what was necessary and why the writing wasn't poor, I then sent this directly by PM to you for your convenience incase you overlooked it, but your posts seem to say you just disagree. There's a difference between rational disagreement, and irrational disagreement because you simply don't like it.

Fortunately, Ieldra is rational.

And a bit less inclined toward the 'Disagreement with me is wrong' fallacy.


Her points can be defined with the actual definition for irrationality, how you came about a different conclusion bewilders and frightens me.

Her only point is that she disagrees and does not believe it, and therefore it is wrong unless someone proves it otherwise to her, but she disputes any proof because she doesn't want to believe it. That is not rational that is the definition of irrational.

Modifié par Aesieru, 04 mars 2012 - 05:21 .


#86
Dean_the_Young

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Frankly I'm amazed that people don't imagine a happy ending for themselves. It's like they have to be spoon-fed, despite the clamor for being an RPG in the first place. RPGs require player participation as well.

Oh, we do. Most certainly. I still think that giving us hopeful conversations with LIs like the one with Garrus and then making an ending that heavily suggests - since you're right, it doesn't say so definitely - that they'll never see each other again even if you get the supposedly "best" ending is cruel. Because you see, collective perception has weight, and this heavily suggested interpretation is an indication that that interpretation is what Bioware's intended. Headcanon is easy, but to know the writers are deliberately trying to sabotage a less grim scenario with their writing - how else can I interpret the ending scenario - is enraging.

Also I would be able to follow them there if the scenario wasn't so utterly contrived.

I agree that a more hopeful ending would be good: infact, I personally agree with the 'better endings for higher war assets' outlines you proposed in the spoiler forum. I also agree that destroying the relays in all endings was an unneeded change.


I strongly disagree, however, in the fallacy of an appeal to popularity. That collective perception has weight does not mean collective perception is correct, and in this case the vast majority of people perceiving on the ending lack a certain piece of context.

Like, the rest of the game and the buildup.

You yourself in the past have stressed the importance of development between points A and B. You would not like Miranda's romance, I suspect, if you only knew the Miranda at the start (cold, standoffish) and then were told and/or shown the Miranda at the end. It would feel out of place, and out of character, for what we know from the start. It's only the process that gives it sensibility and appeal.


The Collective Perception involved her is a good number of people who have only those two endpoints to look at... and then have the first one pre-shaped by someone else's interpretation. And can you really deny that the first description set the tone, as people heard second-hand a way to look at it and then viewed what they saw through that lens?

Imagine if I had been the one to leak the ending, and instead described it in terms of 'and the Normandy crew survives the crash, walking into a new galaxy berift of relays but filled with hopeful space exploration as people begin to re-make contact in the new galaxy. And if you did the right things, Shepard too can survive, to be found by others!'

No claims that the Normandy crew is stranded forever, and the galaxy groups forever locked apart from eachother. No assertions that the companions are doomed to starvation. No pre-emptive argument that the Love Interests are isolated forever.


Can you tell me that a less negative review wouldn't have shaped the Collective Perception of the community members who looked at the endings alone without playing the game?

#87
Dean_the_Young

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Aesieru wrote...

Her points can be defined with the actual definition for irrationality,

Not really.

how you came about a different conclusion bewilders and frightens me.

I suspect that this isn't an uncommon occurance when you talk with people not you.

Her only point is that she disagrees and does not believe it, and therefore it is wrong unless someone proves it otherwise to her, but she disputes any proof because she doesn't want to believe it. That is not rational that is the definition of irrational.

Again, not really.

That, and your proof is pretty flawed, but you won't exactly take anyone else's word on it.

#88
Aesieru

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Her points can be defined with the actual definition for irrationality,

Not really.

how you came about a different conclusion bewilders and frightens me.

I suspect that this isn't an uncommon occurance when you talk with people not you.

Her only point is that she disagrees and does not believe it, and therefore it is wrong unless someone proves it otherwise to her, but she disputes any proof because she doesn't want to believe it. That is not rational that is the definition of irrational.

Again, not really.

That, and your proof is pretty flawed, but you won't exactly take anyone else's word on it.


Try and disprove my proof, and you'll have to argue with what the game itself says.

#89
Canned Bullets

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Nobody likes the ending because Bioware baited us into a happy ending but gave us a pretentious artsy bull**** ending that's been tried before. I'm going to be pissed if the three buttons ending is the only ending.

#90
Ieldra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
Imagine if I had been the one to leak the ending, and instead described it in terms of 'and the Normandy crew survives the crash, walking into a new galaxy berift of relays but filled with hopeful space exploration as people begin to re-make contact in the new galaxy. And if you did the right things, Shepard too can survive, to be found by others!'

No claims that the Normandy crew is stranded forever, and the galaxy groups forever locked apart from eachother. No assertions that the companions are doomed to starvation. No pre-emptive argument that the Love Interests are isolated forever.

Can you tell me that a less negative review wouldn't have shaped the Collective Perception of the community members who looked at the endings alone without playing the game?

I take your point. Time to promote those more hopeful interpretations, then....

#91
Dean_the_Young

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Imagine if I had been the one to leak the ending, and instead described it in terms of 'and the Normandy crew survives the crash, walking into a new galaxy berift of relays but filled with hopeful space exploration as people begin to re-make contact in the new galaxy. And if you did the right things, Shepard too can survive, to be found by others!'

No claims that the Normandy crew is stranded forever, and the galaxy groups forever locked apart from eachother. No assertions that the companions are doomed to starvation. No pre-emptive argument that the Love Interests are isolated forever.

Can you tell me that a less negative review wouldn't have shaped the Collective Perception of the community members who looked at the endings alone without playing the game?

I take your point. Time to promote those more hopeful interpretations, then....

Optimism! :wizard:


Besides, I thought you'd be pleased with Miranda surviving on Earth. She'd be in a prime position to rebuild Humanity, with an effectiveness that only someone like her could manage.

(That, and I bet you'd agree that she'd have the intelligence and inclination to send a shuttle to try and find Shepard and the Normandy.)

#92
Dunmer of Redoran

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Canned Bullets wrote...

Nobody likes the ending because Bioware baited us into a happy ending but gave us a pretentious artsy bull**** ending that's been tried before. I'm going to be pissed if the three buttons ending is the only ending.


Whoa whoa whoa, don't go trashing artists for an ending like this. It's not "artsy" at all, there's no smart symbolism or metaphors, or recurring themes or conceits, or strong analogies going on here. This is just a clearinghouse for clearing a franchise.

#93
ReaperDominator

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why dont they make a disable option?!!?!?!?! use the crucible or what ever its called to disable the reapers while they are disabled blow them up? done!... no need to blow up relays or ruin a franchise!!!

#94
JeanLuc761

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A fairly easy way to edit the ending would be to take the final .bik file and alter it as you see fit. Maybe have a 2D animated epilogue of what happens in YOUR universe. Would be a bit of work, but it can be done.

#95
Aesieru

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ReaperDominator wrote...

why dont they make a disable option?!!?!?!?! use the crucible or what ever its called to disable the reapers while they are disabled blow them up? done!... no need to blow up relays or ruin a franchise!!!


Because the Reapers were never the problem. Please determine what the lore, plot, and understanding of the game is before you think that killing Reapers is a good thing.

#96
LOLandStuff

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ME3 feels like another game, like it isn't even part of the trilogy. Something new comers will find "awesome" because they didn't get all worked up like the rest who played from the start.
I was ok with DA2 and ME2, because they were middle games. I didn't mind the endings since there was still the third part that finishes the trilogy.
But seeing how I had to spend time playing, making several runs with different choices and so on only to see it all thrown out of the window in the end? That's rather depressingly upsetting.
I want an ending where I feel my choices in ME and ME2 mattered. Not big explosions. Gilligan's island and credits rolling.
Sure, I get to see people others don't.
We have 7 endings that aren't that much different. The only difference is that you get to see them in green, red or blue. Seriously?
I don't really care if Shepard dies. I was expecting it since ME2. I want to know what the heck happens with the rest. A longer cinematic. Maybe see how they try rebuilding or just bones and dust blown away.

#97
dw99027

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Just mod whatever planet the Normandy crashes on to look like Earth. And the Grandpa planet too. Problem fixed.

#98
ReaperDominator

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Aesieru wrote...

ReaperDominator wrote...

why dont they make a disable option?!!?!?!?! use the crucible or what ever its called to disable the reapers while they are disabled blow them up? done!... no need to blow up relays or ruin a franchise!!!


Because the Reapers were never the problem. Please determine what the lore, plot, and understanding of the game is before you think that killing Reapers is a good thing.


hey i know the lore buddy, i also know they cut the original ending related to dark energy which made far more sense to the series...i dont have a massive problem with the ending i just think theres was a number of different ways they could have finished it....im a huge ME fan i can still remember when i bought the original back in 2007 and im still buying this game and more than likely going to play it numerous times despite the fairly lazy endings....so dont question my 'understanding of the game' just because my opinion differs from yours...