377 réponses à ce sujet

[myd00m]

Domecoming wrote...

 I don't usually post on forums so sorry for bashing in like this, but I've heard the rumors of bad endings. I mostly play RPG games for it's story and lore, so one of the most important reasons for me to even consider starting to play ME3 is to see all the important mysteries resolved.

So, question to anyone who already knows the endings: is it explained, without any uncertainty or perplexity -- who or what are the Reapers, where do they come from and most importantly, why are they performing the extinction cycles.

Just Yes or No, no spoilers, please. Thanks!

This is a no spoiler area so can't say much but, the ending makes the franchise feel like a giant waste of time and a prologue and there is a huge 180 degree turn in the story, what the first game set has gone to waste....done with bioware... creating magical moments in the story where out of nowhere something happens has plagued this game, no wonder Drew Karpyshyn quit bioware.

[Raging_Pulse]

If that is true, then :'-(

Thanks for your reply.

[Reptillius]

Travie wrote...

Anyone ever read the Dark Tower series from Steven King?

Remember his little side-note before the last chapter of the book when he tells the fans that they should let their last picture of the series be [snip] and not read the last chapter at all?

Bioware should have done this.

Thats how I feel about this ending.

People would throw fits about this. In fact this is something they have been throwing fits about for quite some time. Even more particularly in the Dragon Age forums.  That was part of what upset them about Dragon Age II. They heard about a second game... in a series where the world is the main character and not the characters we play mind you...  And automatically thought "DA:O was a cliffhanger! I get to play my Warden Some more!"  Which wasn't true and then they got mad... And they got Mad that Hawke just vanishes after his heroic adventure as well...

JaegerBane wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sentr0 wrote...

gameplay is gonna be good, story not so good. Endings will be sad and depressing, all of them. My advice: play it as a nobrainshooter and not as an rpg

How does this follow? Are RPGs supposed to have happy endings?

I would submit that they're supposed to have *satisfying* endings. You don't necessarily need a happy ending to be a satisfying one, but its extremely hard to make that kind of ending work. At the end of the day, players have spent ages getting to grips with their character and their character's team... simply binning them off is not going to really work no matter how 'bittersweet' or 'realistic' such an ending is.

I'm going to withold judgement until I play it... but the kind of stuff being mentioned on the forums isn't exactly filling me with confidence. I'd hate to think my favourite franchise gets the Matrix treatment.

The Satisfying nature of an Ending can't really be judged by only the ending itself. Which unfortunately is what some are doing and others are listening to them and basing it off those ill informed judgements.

In an RPG or a good book. The ending itself doesn't mean a whole lot.  It's only satisfying once we've read the whole story and have all of that material to put the ending into Context.

At the end of ME 3 we will have 3 games of heroic but bitter sweet story to put context to the endings and that could change a lot of opinions right there. Could even explain why everybody that's actually played some or all of ME 3 really like the endings when others don't.

Specially when ME 3 is most directly the war with the Reapers itself. Not just build up but the biggest action and heart wrenching drama of the whole tale. This is the part of the story that can and will get to us the most in the end. ME 3 is basically that big showdown when the pieces are all falling into place and that last great battle and final confrontation with the enemy takes place. Being a War Story. That's rarely truely happy.  Most Heroes don't even make it home from the Wars.


And for the one that referenced the ending of the LoTR trilogy. Actually the movies didn't change that ending from the book. He didn't just cut it off like previous attempts of visually telling that tale have.  The books really do end with a bittersweet moment of two hobbits leaving middle earth with the last of the elves and nothing but a book, a suit of armour, and a sword left behind as proof that the main characters actually played a part in it.

[JaegerBane]

uponablackstar wrote...

floppypig16 wrote...

I don't know the endings. But the reason I think you can't have both a fairy tale ending and a "shade of grey" or sad ending is because having both undermines their integrity.

Some people want sunshine and rainbows. Some don't. However, if you made both available then the people that got the "shade of grey" realistic ending can't actually enjoy their ending because they know that if they had played better, they would have got the perfect happy ending.

This undermines their ending. Because the reason these people want this realistic ending is because they believe the Reapers should not be defeated so easily... you shouldn't be able to walk away from this battle without major destruction. So, you see, giving everyone the ending they want, and making the sunshine and rainbows ending available actually undermines and makes the realistic ending just seem like you failed.

Bioware couldn't give you both, they had to choose one. In my opinion, they made the correct, logical choice.

And to feed off of your point, we need to think back to the suicide mission from ME2. It was a pretty lofty name for a final mission, for the obligatory allusion to some or all characters not making it back alive. When we, as players, found strategies to keep EVERYONE alive, think about how it tampered with the entire premise of that mission. While it was great to have the choice to keep everyone alive, it mildly affected the finality of that mission -- some would argue that it completely cheapened it. A suicide mission that everyone survives.

I like the fact that ME3, through what I've heard of its endings, adds weight to the Reaper conflict by incorporating those unavoidable moments to the fray. Things will happen, people will die, and it might not happen because of a gamey dialogue option on a wheel. Doing it this way will add a sense of realism to the story; which yes, could lead to some grey endings. I don't love the notion of losing someone I liked, but I understand it when I'm looking at the bigger picture of the story.

Yes and no. Comparitively very few people actually managed to get through the suicide mission without losing anyone, the first time they did it, with no walktrhoughs or hints etc - there were so many points where a single decision automatically kills someone off that statistically, it was very likely someone would buy it.

That doesn't, however, make it a cliche to offer a route that allows the player to get everyone else out alive. I think some people seem to be saying that if they metagame through the mission then it ends in an unrealistically positive fashion... in which case, I'd point out that if they're going to metagame to get the best result, they shouldn't be surprised if it all works. This isn't a good enough reason to deprive all the other players who *prefer* positive endings.

However.... I still say that the Virmire choice in ME1 is still one of the most poignant and mature sections of a game I've ever played, precisely because there simply isn't a right choice to make. If the ME3 ending takes the same tack as this, then I'll have no issue with it.

[Sentr0]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sentr0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
This, pretty much. My ME2 playthrough where everybody lived was the worst ending I had. Worst possible, I think -- never actually managed to get Shepard killed, but that would be better than the one where everybody lived.

You're ridiculous, if you wanted everyone dieing  all you had to do was keeping on main story and making poor choices on last missions. There are multiple endings for a reason, pretending that all endings all bad or good is just bullsh*t

Sure, if I made bad decisions I could get a bad ending. But I don't want to RP a Shepard who makes bad decisions. And I found that the perfect endings weren't as interesting as the imperfect ones. So what I want is an ending where even perfect decisions don't give Shepard the ending that he would have wanted. An optimal ending for Shepard is not the optimal ending for AlanC9.

This is not a book it's a godamm game, there are multiple endings for a reason if you cant live with that play something else or read dunno Martin's books

[Reptillius]

Sentr0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sentr0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
This, pretty much. My ME2 playthrough where everybody lived was the worst ending I had. Worst possible, I think -- never actually managed to get Shepard killed, but that would be better than the one where everybody lived.

You're ridiculous, if you wanted everyone dieing  all you had to do was keeping on main story and making poor choices on last missions. There are multiple endings for a reason, pretending that all endings all bad or good is just bullsh*t

Sure, if I made bad decisions I could get a bad ending. But I don't want to RP a Shepard who makes bad decisions. And I found that the perfect endings weren't as interesting as the imperfect ones. So what I want is an ending where even perfect decisions don't give Shepard the ending that he would have wanted. An optimal ending for Shepard is not the optimal ending for AlanC9.

This is not a book it's a godamm game, there are multiple endings for a reason if you cant live with that play something else or read dunno Martin's books

In some ways a game like this. particularly a role playing game of some form is like a book. They both tell a story. The difference is in how we interact with it.  We're a lot more involved with interacting with the story and progressing it along in a video game.

[jmood88]

myd00m wrote...

Domecoming wrote...

 I don't usually post on forums so sorry for bashing in like this, but I've heard the rumors of bad endings. I mostly play RPG games for it's story and lore, so one of the most important reasons for me to even consider starting to play ME3 is to see all the important mysteries resolved.

So, question to anyone who already knows the endings: is it explained, without any uncertainty or perplexity -- who or what are the Reapers, where do they come from and most importantly, why are they performing the extinction cycles.

Just Yes or No, no spoilers, please. Thanks!

This is a no spoiler area so can't say much but, the ending makes the franchise feel like a giant waste of time and a prologue and there is a huge 180 degree turn in the story, what the first game set has gone to waste....done with bioware... creating magical moments in the story where out of nowhere something happens has plagued this game, no wonder Drew Karpyshyn quit bioware.

He didn't quit Bioware.

[JaegerBane]

jmood88 wrote...

myd00m wrote...

Domecoming wrote...

 I don't usually post on forums so sorry for bashing in like this, but I've heard the rumors of bad endings. I mostly play RPG games for it's story and lore, so one of the most important reasons for me to even consider starting to play ME3 is to see all the important mysteries resolved.

So, question to anyone who already knows the endings: is it explained, without any uncertainty or perplexity -- who or what are the Reapers, where do they come from and most importantly, why are they performing the extinction cycles.

Just Yes or No, no spoilers, please. Thanks!

This is a no spoiler area so can't say much but, the ending makes the franchise feel like a giant waste of time and a prologue and there is a huge 180 degree turn in the story, what the first game set has gone to waste....done with bioware... creating magical moments in the story where out of nowhere something happens has plagued this game, no wonder Drew Karpyshyn quit bioware.

He didn't quit Bioware.

I thought he quit the game industry altogether?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 mars 2012 - 02:40 .

[JasmoVT]

Agree completely with Reptillius. Using the standards being applied in these discussions one would have to say the ending to A Tale of Two Cities was unsatisfying and yet it is one of the great endings in literature and completely consistent with the book.

[JaegerBane]

Reptillius wrote...
The Satisfying nature of an Ending can't really be judged by only the ending itself. Which unfortunately is what some are doing and others are listening to them and basing it off those ill informed judgements.

In an RPG or a good book. The ending itself doesn't mean a whole lot.  It's only satisfying once we've read the whole story and have all of that material to put the ending into Context.

At the end of ME 3 we will have 3 games of heroic but bitter sweet story to put context to the endings and that could change a lot of opinions right there. Could even explain why everybody that's actually played some or all of ME 3 really like the endings when others don't.

Specially when ME 3 is most directly the war with the Reapers itself. Not just build up but the biggest action and heart wrenching drama of the whole tale. This is the part of the story that can and will get to us the most in the end. ME 3 is basically that big showdown when the pieces are all falling into place and that last great battle and final confrontation with the enemy takes place. Being a War Story. That's rarely truely happy.  Most Heroes don't even make it home from the Wars.

I think thats the point I was getting at - that making an ending both satisfying and 'bittersweet/realistic' or whetver the term you favour is extremely difficult to do. Most often they end up feeling hollow and they tend to sour the previous chapters, as the reader/viewer/player looses the will to go back through the saga, as they know it won't go anywhere.

Sometimes this doesn't happen - Se7en probably being the best example of how to do this kind of ending well. As you say, totally consistent with the story.

Sometimes it does happen but the damage is restricted to the particular instalment that finished the saga off - the Alien trilogy being the good example of this, with the increasingly ridiculous character deaths and navel gazing continuing onwards to the point where the story becomes a total joke, but the previous chapters still retain their glory.

And sometimes, the ending is so bad and so poorly represented that it damages the whole saga - the Matrix trilogy being the classic example of this, where the initial story is still a great but its forever tied to a horrible and unsatisfying conclusion.

I don't honestly think ME3 will fall into the latter two catgories.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[frylock23]

uponablackstar wrote...

A few quick thoughts; mind you, from not having seen the endings.

The negativity surrounding the lack of choice in the apparent deaths of certain characters, while unfortunate, is actually quite a unique dynamic from the sound of it. With the expected premise of ME3 largely being that "the Reapers are coming and we can't stop them," I find it interesting that events take place that are out of Shepard's control. Choosing who lives and who may die, as novel as it is, isn't the way life and death always works. We've been privileged enough to have a say in the matter in past ME games, but these certain deaths could succeed as far as the Reapers' intent of making us feel powerless with their will.

Characters die, and there's evidently nothing we can do about it -- I think that can bring about stronger emotions towards the story, because we'll have had someone important to us ripped from us, and it's interesting that the blood might not necessarily be on Shepard's hands.

The concept of the Reaper conflict taking away those choices strengthens their evil in my eyes. I think too many of you are looking at this purely as a design decision and not with proper story-related context.

I'm not saying it's WRONG for anyone to feel unhappy about those constants, but when you think about your personal reaction to those unavoidable deaths, it should tell you that BioWare succeeded with bringing out the emotional pull they were going for. Don't blame BioWare... blame the Reapers.

Except that these deaths, the way they are done and the way it's been presented seems to be an almost tacked on afterthought rather than a logical consequence of anything, and no matter how the game ultimately ends, they end up pretty much the same way every single time as the same afterthought. It just feels contrived.

Contrast it with the Virmire Survivor death which was unavoidable and still rips my heart out every time. At least that death served a purpose. Both those characters had their important roles to play and each had a reason to be where they were and doing what they were doing.

This time, the loss feels more like the character dies because h/she slipped and fell off the ramp as you were taking off and ... oh well, sucks to be you, dude! Possible? Yeah, but not in the least satisfying and would feel contrived like it was done just for the sake of making players feel bad. And it's like BioWare decided that they needed to make sure everyone was offed in a way that left open no possibilities for them to ever return in any other game and looked up at the end and went "Oh, crap! They all could be still alive ..." and instead of dealing with it or just putting their foot down and saying "NO" like real adults do, they found a way to plot device them into the void.

[frylock23]

JasmoVT wrote...

Agree completely with Reptillius. Using the standards being applied in these discussions one would have to say the ending to A Tale of Two Cities was unsatisfying and yet it is one of the great endings in literature and completely consistent with the book.

But when you sit down to read a book, you never have the illusion of control, and no one ever is sold a book with the idea that the choices you make while you read a book matter in its outcome, either.

Everyone who reads a book or watches a movie or takes part in any other form of media entertainment where our participation is entirely passive understands that we go where that story takes us.

In an RPG or Role Playing Game, we are invited to take a role and play it, and at least for the first role playing games, how you play your role generally determines at least in part how the story plays out. This means that an RPG isn't entirely passive unlike a book.

In other words, you're comparing apples to oranges.

[jmood88]

frylock23 wrote...

JasmoVT wrote...

Agree completely with Reptillius. Using the standards being applied in these discussions one would have to say the ending to A Tale of Two Cities was unsatisfying and yet it is one of the great endings in literature and completely consistent with the book.

But when you sit down to read a book, you never have the illusion of control, and no one ever is sold a book with the idea that the choices you make while you read a book matter in its outcome, either.

Everyone who reads a book or watches a movie or takes part in any other form of media entertainment where our participation is entirely passive understands that we go where that story takes us.

In an RPG or Role Playing Game, we are invited to take a role and play it, and at least for the first role playing games, how you play your role generally determines at least in part how the story plays out. This means that an RPG isn't entirely passive unlike a book.

In other words, you're comparing apples to oranges.

You are invited to play one role. You aren't completely controlling the fate of every character you interact with, so I'm not understanding why you and others feel like since you control Shepard that he/she should be able to decide whether every single person gets to live or die.

[YorickMori]

The endings bad in WRITING. Massive plotholes, contradictions, bad voice acting, and the last scene is a rip-off from a guy on DeviantART. I don't even want to think about it anymore.


I think it's funny how the ****s try to justify this horrid ending with the "wtf, it's the reapers. How did you expect a good ending''. Yeah right. I never wanted kitties, or bunnies, or rainbows. But, you can already see people dying and devastation in the first mission. Hell, it would be awesome if some of the species are being whiped out, or you can sacrifice humanity, or you have to sacrifice your squadmate. But this is just too much. Not only that there is a imense lack of variety, but this is how Bioware made the ending look. And this is besides the bad writing, and the most horrid thing ever: the ending screen, which suggests inbreeding.

Modifié par YorickMori, 05 mars 2012 - 03:49 .

[TobiTobsen]

frylock23 wrote...

This time, the loss feels more like the character dies because h/she slipped and fell off the ramp as you were taking off and ... oh well, sucks to be you, dude! Possible? Yeah, but not in the least satisfying and would feel contrived like it was done just for the sake of making players feel bad. And it's like BioWare decided that they needed to make sure everyone was offed in a way that left open no possibilities for them to ever return in any other game and looked up at the end and went "Oh, crap! They all could be still alive ..." and instead of dealing with it or just putting their foot down and saying "NO" like real adults do, they found a way to plot device them into the void.

Nowadays that's called "pulling a Hawke". A DA tradition they try to incorporate in ME! Down they go, in the name of drama!

[YorickMori]

Heavy01 wrote...

Foxhound2020 wrote...


I can't really tell you without spoiling it, but there is absolutely no good ending. No one is going to be happy ever after in the ending. Not just shepard and his LI, but no one in the known ME universe.

Damn, that is amazing. I can't believe Bioware actually pulled a good ending for once. Guess I'll have to see it in context.


What troubles me however, if the serious ammount of people who seriously think a happy ending would be a good ending, I mean really? go back to star wars.

You poor little lost soul of a Bidrone. You don't know what a multiple ending is, don't you?

[Arkitekt]

YorickMori wrote...

Heavy01 wrote...

Foxhound2020 wrote...


I can't really tell you without spoiling it, but there is absolutely no good ending. No one is going to be happy ever after in the ending. Not just shepard and his LI, but no one in the known ME universe.

Damn, that is amazing. I can't believe Bioware actually pulled a good ending for once. Guess I'll have to see it in context.


What troubles me however, if the serious ammount of people who seriously think a happy ending would be a good ending, I mean really? go back to star wars.

You poor little lost soul of a Bidrone. You don't know what a multiple ending is, don't you?

What it is *not* is a guarantee that at least one of them will be flowers and petals. Which is something that apparently many commenters are unable to grasp.

I am way more concerned over the "Shyamalan" twist someone back there was talking about. Now that is terrifying. To have Mass Effect end up in a sad note is not, and no amount of calling people "Bidrones"[sic] will change that, whiner.

[AkiKishi]

The ending solves nothing. Leaves more questions than answers and if you look at some of the cinematics are problably a complete waste of time.

[YorickMori]

Arkitekt wrote...

YorickMori wrote...

Heavy01 wrote...

Foxhound2020 wrote...


I can't really tell you without spoiling it, but there is absolutely no good ending. No one is going to be happy ever after in the ending. Not just shepard and his LI, but no one in the known ME universe.

Damn, that is amazing. I can't believe Bioware actually pulled a good ending for once. Guess I'll have to see it in context.


What troubles me however, if the serious ammount of people who seriously think a happy ending would be a good ending, I mean really? go back to star wars.

You poor little lost soul of a Bidrone. You don't know what a multiple ending is, don't you?

What it is *not* is a guarantee that at least one of them will be flowers and petals. Which is something that apparently many commenters are unable to grasp.

I am way more concerned over the "Shyamalan" twist someone back there was talking about. Now that is terrifying. To have Mass Effect end up in a sad note is not, and no amount of calling people "Bidrones"[sic] will change that, whiner.

I don't really give a crap about Shepard and his crew at all. He should see his LI impaled on a spike under his very eyes, for all I care. Earth should have population 0, Palaven should split in half. The citadel should be blazing in flames. There is your lack of puppies and rainbows.

But to tell you the reason would mean to spoil the game. You will see why the ending is a pile of crap yourself. It has something to do with destroying the very thing that defines the mass effect universe, and it has a terribad ending screen with a landscape ripped off from some guy on deviantART. This isn't a depressing ending, this is a load of hot garbage that ruined the  ''mass effect'' from the game.

And enough with the '' rainbow and puppies''  horse****. This whole thing shouldn't be just black and white. Can you even understand that this game is so bad, that no matter what decisions you do in ME 1 and ME2, you will still get the same space magic nonsense?

Modifié par YorickMori, 05 mars 2012 - 04:15 .

[Arkitekt]

YorickMori wrote...

I don't really give a crap about Shepard and his crew at all. He should see his LI impaled on a spike under his very eyes, for all I care. Earth should have population 0, Palaven should split in half. The citadel should be blazing in flames. There is your lack of puppies and rainbows.

But to tell you the reason would mean to spoil the game. You will see why the ending is a pile of crap yourself. It has something to do with destroying the very thing that defines the mass effect universe, and it has a terribad ending screen with a landscape ripped off from some guy on deviantART. This isn't a depressing ending, this is a load of hot garbage that ruined the  ''mass effect'' from the game.

And enough with the '' rainbow and puppies''  horse****. This whole thing shouldn't be just black and white. Can you even understand that this game is so bad, that no matter what decisions you do in ME 1 and ME2, you will still get the same space magic nonsense?

I do understand you are rambling words on and on and on. I'll play the game myself and I will be my own judge of the "badness" of the game, instead of being spoonfed spoilers by disappointed people who apparently have no life but to sulk on their own misery.

[AlanC9]

YorickMori wrote...
I don't really give a crap about Shepard and his crew at all. He should see his LI impaled on a spike under his very eyes, for all I care. Earth should have population 0, Palaven should split in half. The citadel should be blazing in flames. There is your lack of puppies and rainbows.

But to tell you the reason would mean to spoil the game. You will see why the ending is a pile of crap yourself. It has something to do with destroying the very thing that defines the mass effect universe, and it has a terribad ending screen with a landscape ripped off from some guy on deviantART. This isn't a depressing ending, this is a load of hot garbage that ruined the  ''mass effect'' from the game.

Wow -- now I really can't wait to play it.

[djv21]

lawls

[Arkitekt]

Yeah, don't tell me about it, it's like I'm itching to google the endings and spoil myself to smithereens... musstt.... contaaaaaaainnnn arrrrrhrhrhrhrhhr

[JaegerBane]

Arkitekt wrote...

YorickMori wrote...

I don't really give a crap about Shepard and his crew at all. He should see his LI impaled on a spike under his very eyes, for all I care. Earth should have population 0, Palaven should split in half. The citadel should be blazing in flames. There is your lack of puppies and rainbows.

But to tell you the reason would mean to spoil the game. You will see why the ending is a pile of crap yourself. It has something to do with destroying the very thing that defines the mass effect universe, and it has a terribad ending screen with a landscape ripped off from some guy on deviantART. This isn't a depressing ending, this is a load of hot garbage that ruined the  ''mass effect'' from the game.

And enough with the '' rainbow and puppies''  horse****. This whole thing shouldn't be just black and white. Can you even understand that this game is so bad, that no matter what decisions you do in ME 1 and ME2, you will still get the same space magic nonsense?

I do understand you are rambling words on and on and on. I'll play the game myself and I will be my own judge of the "badness" of the game, instead of being spoonfed spoilers by disappointed people who apparently have no life but to sulk on their own misery.

Or watch Youtube and make snap judgements on what people have chosen to upload, for that matter.

[N172]

Imagine you play the Virmire mission from ME1:

You chose to save Ashley, and so Kaidan dies as it is in the game.
Now, you reload and chose Kaidan as survivor, but as soon as you get to the elevator Kaidan gets killed and all thats left is to save Ashley.

Thats basicly the problem many have with the endings.

As far as i know ME3 also lacks a truely bad ending, no white, no black only shades between 48% and 52% of grey.
But it seems at least we will be able to bend it to somthing between 10% and 90% with our own imagination.

Modifié par N172, 05 mars 2012 - 05:19 .