72 réponses à ce sujet

[Chuvvy]

dw99027 wrote...

Non-preservation equals irreversible genocide. Instead of 50000 year cycles of organic sentience, you get an eternity of pure AI.

You're sleeping for 50,000 years, you only wake to annihilate unsuspecting civilisation and you have no choice in the matter because you're programed to. And besides all that, who the **** wants to live for an entrinity?

Modifié par Slidell505, 05 mars 2012 - 07:17 .

[Archelaos]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

Because the Reapers are a sentient life form in a fictional world adhering to some semblance of the rules of the real world. In the real world, there's no such thing as pure good and evil. Even the most sinister people in history had some noble goals, or used severely misguided logic to reach their horrific conclusions. The Reapers people evil for the sake of evil would be unbelievable, unrewarding and lazy writing.

One name. STALIN
What reasoning wold you have for him? He was just bandit, killer and rule maniac from the get go.
Killing, robbing banks and making general banditry way before revolution, then procceding all the way to turn into mass murderer in extreme, having blood of entire nations on his hands.

[dw99027]

When Lovecraft wrote the Old Ones, he himself was the driving force behind their actions and motives. They were there, he just didn't put them in writing, either because he wanted them to APPEAR as alien as possible , or because he couldn't come up with something that wouldn't diminish them. Valid creative decision, but not the only one.

In short, every writer's otherwordly creation necessitates explanation in the writer's mind, at the very least. Whether or not he chooses to share it with the public is a creative decision.

[LordofMasks]

dw99027 wrote...

The mere fact that despite their power, their motives-programming revolve around something other than themselves, is what makes them 'not inherently evil'.

In the end, that is the line that Shepard accepted. I personally wouldn't believe that the reapers are just looking out for my best interests. In fact, what I am suggesting is that their motivations are either entirely evil, or more likely entirely selfish or a combination of the two. If the reapers are like geth and have anything even approaching the level of "free will" the geth have there are reapers cruising around doing nothing at all. Some are fighting other reapers and some are reaping other galaxies.

If the reapers were entirely omnipotent I would have no problem believing their stated motivation. In a way, it is benevolent and god-like. But they aren't omnipotent and a loss of any reaper comes at terrible cost and is antithetical to their stated purpose which is preventing technological singularity and preserving civilizations by ascending them into reaper life forms.

Ultimately what I would like to believe is that these reapers are the worst of the worst. Perhaps comprised of the most warlike civilizations ever to exist and intent on remaining technologically dominant(and alive). Perhaps there are other reapers equally committed to remaining dominant that use different methods. Alternately there are some that don't care at all.

[The Rime Scheme]

dw99027 wrote...

When Lovecraft wrote the Old Ones, he himself was the driving force behind their actions and motives. They were there, he just didn't put them in writing, either because he wanted them to APPEAR as alien as possible , or because he couldn't come up with something that wouldn't diminish them. Valid creative decision, but not the only one.

In short, every writer's otherwordly creation necessitates explanation in the writer's mind, at the very least. Whether or not he chooses to share it with the public is a creative decision.

Once the artist (for lack of a better word; not going to get in a debate about the constituion of 'art' here) lets the art leave his creative control - once the game book and/or movie is released, for example - they lose the right to alter it in the public's mind. He can patch it, write a sequel, produce a second film, and maybe the recipients will adjust their viewpoints accordingly. But in the end, it's in their eyes and mind. And so even if the creator or writer knows the real motivations or nature of a character, as long as he doesn't share it it doesn't matter. The audience won't know for certain, and that's the point.

With the Reapers, for instance, assuming we never learned their real origins or purpose, we as fans wouldn't know what the truth was - just as the galaxy wouldn't in-game. They, and by extension we, can guess at it all we want; we can try and impose our own beliefs and rationalizations on their actions. But in the end, we won't ever know for sure, and that's the point. It achieves the same effect, however deep into semantics and philosophy you want to get. The second you start devaluing the character based on the author's intentions and/or secret/personal knowledge is the second you un-suspend your disbelief and it all becomes moot anyway.

Modifié par The Rime Scheme, 05 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[RamirezWolfen]

In my opinion, that wouldn't be any good if they were evil. Mass Effect would have fell into the cliche marine fighting evil aliens thing again.

[dw99027]

Slidell505 wrote...

dw99027 wrote...

Non-preservation equals irreversible genocide. Instead of 50000 year cycles of organic sentience, you get an eternity of pure AI.

You're sleeping for 50,000 years, you only wake to annihilate unsuspecting civilisation and you have no choice in the matter because you're programed to. And besides all that, who the **** wants to live for an entrinity?

Freddy once asked himself that question...

and then came up with the answer himself:

because, let's face it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS5NHB6bh2I&feature=related

[Allworkandlowpay]

Archelaos wrote...


One name. STALIN
What reasoning wold you have for him? He was just bandit, killer and rule maniac from the get go.
Killing, robbing banks and making general banditry way before revolution, then procceding all the way to turn into mass murderer in extreme, having blood of entire nations on his hands.

I think he made his justifications clear. During the SSSR's great purge, he was dedicated to ensuring Lenin's vision survived for the betterment of society. He saw these mock murders and arbitrarty executions as necessary to the survival of the party. He didn't wake up and say "Oh, I feel like doing evil today." 

[dw99027]

Agreed. The road to hell is paved with...

[Nachtritter76]

dw99027 wrote...

When Lovecraft wrote the Old Ones, he himself was the driving force behind their actions and motives. They were there, he just didn't put them in writing, either because he wanted them to APPEAR as alien as possible , or because he couldn't come up with something that wouldn't diminish them. Valid creative decision, but not the only one.

In short, every writer's otherwordly creation necessitates explanation in the writer's mind, at the very least. Whether or not he chooses to share it with the public is a creative decision.

First, the Old Ones are not the Great Old Ones.

Second, Lovecraft didn't beat himself over *motives* for the Great Old Ones (go read his essays on Weird Fiction). He wanted something that reflected his vision of the universe: a cold, uncaring place where man is insignificant. That's it. He didn't think of motives for Cthulhu to destroy earthlings, for instance. Cthulhu didn't need a motive, he'd just wake up and walk his great backyward on Earth again, there's no motive there, we just happen to live on the planet that's HIS. When he gets out of bed in the morning, we're done.

[Juniper Mucius]

I have an idea as to why we can't have Reapers just be plain evil. We'll start by having each person list things they think are evil. I'll go first.

National Socialists
White Supremacists
Religious Extremists
Islamaphobes
Homophobes
People that don't like pet rabbits...

[Archelaos]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

Archelaos wrote...


One name. STALIN
What reasoning wold you have for him? He was just bandit, killer and rule maniac from the get go.
Killing, robbing banks and making general banditry way before revolution, then procceding all the way to turn into mass murderer in extreme, having blood of entire nations on his hands.

I think he made his justifications clear. During the SSSR's great purge, he was dedicated to ensuring Lenin's vision survived for the betterment of society. He saw these mock murders and arbitrarty executions as necessary to the survival of the party. He didn't wake up and say "Oh, I feel like doing evil today." 

Hmm... had you ever read any serious books about him?
The first target in great purge were Lenin's most trusted companions. Next were everyone Stalin thought may become threat in the future.
But the purge was nothing compared to his other atrocities. Like starving Ukraine, most fertile place in Europe where milions (10-20) died of starvation or kiled by CzeKa/NKWD troops because of some mad theories about land possesion.

While you can say Lenin did all the evilness because he believed in some ideas, the only idea Stalin had was to grab rule and hold on to it.

[Nachtritter76]

The Free Jaffa wrote...

I have an idea as to why we can't have Reapers just be plain evil. We'll start by having each person list things they think are evil. I'll go first.

National Socialists
White Supremacists
Religious Extremists
Islamaphobes
Homophobes
People that don't like pet rabbits...

Except none of those things are in themselves EVIL. It's what some people do with it that is. An ideology is just that. Not all of the people included in the groups above would be evil, but their actions might be, depending on the actions. A lot of ideologies and religions are kinda stupid, but not evil. Homophobia, Islamophobia, aren't evil either. They're just irrational fears of difference, and people CAN change their minds (who knew?). But they may push you to 'bad' actions.

Modifié par Nachtritter76, 05 mars 2012 - 08:11 .

[Allworkandlowpay]

Archelaos wrote...


Hmm... had you ever read any serious books about him?
The first target in great purge were Lenin's most trusted companions. Next were everyone Stalin thought may become threat in the future.
But the purge was nothing compared to his other atrocities. Like starving Ukraine, most fertile place in Europe where milions (10-20) died of starvation or kiled by CzeKa/NKWD troops because of some mad theories about land possesion.

While you can say Lenin did all the evilness because he believed in some ideas, the only idea Stalin had was to grab rule and hold on to it.

I've only read very cursory information about Stalin. Not really a major interest to me. I know of his atrocities though, and obviously you do too. You also proved my point. I highlighted his goal, which was not "to be evil." You even delivered it.

He wanted power, he wanted strength, he wanted his vision of Russia to survive. That's wildly different from just being evil, that's doing bad things for a purpose. 

[Juniper Mucius]

Nachtritter76 wrote...

The Free Jaffa wrote...

I have an idea as to why we can't have Reapers just be plain evil. We'll start by having each person list things they think are evil. I'll go first.

National Socialists
White Supremacists
Religious Extremists
Islamaphobes
Homophobes
People that don't like pet rabbits...

Except none of those things are in themselves EVIL. It's what some people do with it that is. An ideology is just that. Not all of the people included in the groups above would be evil, but their actions might be, depending on the actions. A lot of ideologies and religions are kinda stupid, but not evil. Homophobia, Islamophobia, aren't evil either. They're just irrational fears of difference, and people CAN change their minds (who knew?). But they may push you to 'bad' actions.

You proved the point I was trying to make.  Thank you.  =)

[dw99027]

Shouldn't one first DEFINE Evil before filing things under said category?

[Juniper Mucius]

dw99027 wrote...

Shouldn't one first DEFINE Evil before filing things under said category?

Thank you!

[magnuskn]

While I agree that "evil for the sake of being evil" is pretty boring in most cases ( although there are exceptions, if done right ), the Reapers motivation is a far cry from their own statement that their "kind trascend our very understanding". Their motivation for reaping was actually pretty simply... and stupid.

[dw99027]

You're welcome. Anything that can only achieve objective definition at most should never instill arguments of absolute conviction. Except hating bunnies, ofcourse.

[Juniper Mucius]

magnuskn wrote...

While I agree that "evil for the sake of being evil" is pretty boring in most cases ( although there are exceptions, if done right ), the Reapers motivation is a far cry from their own statement that their "kind trascend our very understanding". Their motivation for reaping was actually pretty simply... and stupid.

I think it still does transcend our very understanding.  Because simply, we don't understand it.  We haven't experienced what they experienced.  Even with the geth, they weren't that big of a threat.  Then we find out that they are even less of a threat than we thought.  They just want to be isolationists.  They have no intention of invading the greater galaxy.  

You tell me that you want to "reap" my entire species for your own cowardly desires, I'm not going to understand why you want to do it.  It doesn't make sense.  The Reapers are, or rather the original species that constructed them, are cowards.  I can't fathom why one civilization would seek to destroy all future civilizations.  Their basic reasoning may not be a mystery, but their way of thought surely is.

dw99027 wrote...

You're welcome. Anything that can only
achieve objective definition at most should never instill arguments of
absolute conviction. Except hating bunnies, ofcourse.

My bunny appreciates your consensus.

[Corvus Metus]

Efesell wrote...

Eh, evil just for the sake of evil isn't very interesting in a main villain.

I may not fully agree with the reasoning they have, but I prefer that they actually have reasons instead of just "Eh why not"

I won't entirely agree with this.  Luca Blight (of Suikoden II) and Jon Irenicus (of Baldur's Gate II) were both fantastic villians.  While they both have explaninations of why they became evil it doesn't matter, because their actions nullify and sympathy - even any humanity - they once had.

Also, as mentioned, Heath Leager's Joker is an great example of an antagonist who is evil for evil's sake - yet still well written.   Hell, even series' hailed for being "mature and realistic" like Song of Ice and Fire have its share of villians who are just evil for the hell of it.

'course, I'd have prefered them staying Lovecraftian like they were in the first game and while this thread seems to suggest at least a few other people would have as well...

I also recall previous threads of people seemingly not enjoying or understanding the "uttery alien, entirely beyond mortal understanding" thing.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[magnuskn]

The Free Jaffa wrote...

I think it still does transcend our very understanding.  Because simply, we don't understand it.  We haven't experienced what they experienced.  Even with the geth, they weren't that big of a threat.  Then we find out that they are even less of a threat than we thought.  They just want to be isolationists.  They have no intention of invading the greater galaxy.  

You tell me that you want to "reap" my entire species for your own cowardly desires, I'm not going to understand why you want to do it.  It doesn't make sense.  The Reapers are, or rather the original species that constructed them, are cowards.  I can't fathom why one civilization would seek to destroy all future civilizations.  Their basic reasoning may not be a mystery, but their way of thought surely is.

Well, IMO it was simply that they settled on one (very flawed) solution to their problem. Yeah, in a sense it is beyond our comprehension, because it completely factors out any factor of compassion.

But on an intellectual level, it is understandable, if still completely horrifying. I would have personally preferred if their motivation would have been alien on a completely incomprehensible Cthulhoid level.

[Nachtritter76]

magnuskn wrote...

[I would have personally preferred if their motivation would have been alien on a completely incomprehensible Cthulhoid level.

Same here.

Or.

If BW really wanted the Reapers to be some sort of "keepers of order" for the organics, why have them destroy organics instead of, I don't know, keep them in check, à-la Colossus: The Forbin Project??