69 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

It isn't actually Urthemiel, but just a reflection of a past experience of Wynne.

[Wulfram]

Having the soul survive anyway would be a bad thing. It would take away a lot from what's perhaps DA:O's biggest choice.

I'd rather see them just give up on the whole import thing and treat the Dark Ritual as canon than that.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 mars 2012 - 12:01 .

[Megaton_Hope]

thats1evildude wrote...

The fastest bird on Earth is the peregrine falcon, and it can reach speeds of up to 300 kilometres per hour. But that's when diving. Morrigan can't "dive" across the Waking Sea to the Free Marches and she can't "dive" all the way to Orlais. Even as a bird, you're talking about a journey that lasts days, not hours.

Both hawks and falcons make the fastest horse look like a slowpoke in a straight shot from point A to point B, dive or no dive. They don't have to stop to rest periodically, for one thing - they can coast on updrafts and continue moving. (Horses, on the other hand, cannot gallop the whole way.) And as we see demonstrated over and over again, nobody in Ferelden rides horses.

Even a simple crow can fly about 30 mph, twice as much for short periods. And not being raptors, that's not a "dive."

And they DID NOT force-march a small army from the foothills of the western mountains cross-country to Denerim in a day or two, I can guarantee you that. The Warden's no-time fantasy travel around Ferelden took an unspecified period of nearly a year to complete. Should realistically have taken longer, since he was traveling with a small group, heavily armed and armored, on foot, with no supply train to support them.

It's not simply the convincing that's the problem, it's the finding. It's not like there are recent recruits to the Grey Wardens standing on every street corner waiting for some hot witch to come along and jump their bones as part of a magical sex rite.

Not in FERELDEN, but that's because in FERELDEN they were banished until recently and needed to rebuild their numbers. In Orlais or elsewhere, we have it to understand that Wardens are more numerous.

It's not an "if". A Warden must die to slay the Archdemon. The Dark Ritual is the only way out of paying that price.
If you refuse Morrigan's offer, you all but tell her that you are willing to die to end the Blight, even if your intention is to sacrifice a teammate in your place.

It's an "if" - surviving to slay the Archdemon is not a given, no matter how badass the Warden is.

[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And what else could Morrigan do in that situation? The Warden isn't just asking you to have sex with her; she's asking you to participate in a magical sex rite. Consent is pretty much mandatory.

I don't mean that she would rape the Warden, but that because the Warden said no I don't think she just goes "Damn! No OGB for me! You win Warden, I'll give up."

From what I saw with Alistair, Morrigan is quite capable of obtaining sex when she wants it, manipulating her victim, subject, whatever with magic. Other than moral reasons -- and it's been shown that Morrigan has her own set of morals that don't necessarily match those of society at large, from her dialogue responses during quests -- there is no reason she couldn't have just used that method on Alistair (or a male PC) in the first place.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Morrigan would propose it for two reasons: 1) Doing so would ensure her friend/lover would live through the final battle and 2) she wouldn't have to worry about some longer ritual that would take a longer amount of time.

The issue does not lie solely with Morrigan's motivation — she could just as easily hate the Warden's guts — but also with Flemeth's. She goes to a lot of effort to aid the Wardens: holding on to the Warden treaties for an unspecified but probably long period of time, raising a daughter to perform the Dark Ritual, saving Alistair and the Warden from the Tower of Ishal, etc. As well, the scheme potentially ends up killing her, or at least a part of her, when the Warden kills Flemeth on Morrigan's behalf.

The question remains: if there was another way to obtain the Old God's soul, even if it took a little longer, why not just do it? If she was worried about the Blight or simply needed the Old God dead, there were better ways of dealing with the problem than entrusting the treaties to a pair of inexperienced Wardens.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't mean that she would rape the Warden, but that because the Warden said no I don't think she just goes "Damn! No OGB for me! You win Warden, I'll give up".

It's not just the sex that's important. If all that mattered was copulating with the Warden, then Morrigan could simply shag the Warden under the pretense of "spending one last night together". The Warden need not even have known how he survived the Archdemon's death. Or, yes, she could theoretically rape the Warden/Alistair.

But Morrigan implicitly referred to her offer as a "ritual", and while we may not have seen an actual magical component (ie. chanting, lighting of candles, slitting of wrists), it must have entailed more than a simple roll in the sack. The Warden's (or Alistair's) willing participation was necessary.

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Not in FERELDEN, but that's because in FERELDEN they were banished until recently and needed to rebuild
their numbers. In Orlais or elsewhere, we have it to understand that Wardens are more numerous.

How many Grey Wardens did we run into in Kirkwall? They're not as numerous as you think. And not just any Warden will do; a recent recruit is needed.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 mars 2012 - 06:47 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Since there's so little actual information about the nature of the ritual, I don't think it's necessarily true that the male participant has to be willing (or even aware). The only thing Morrigan explicitly states about her requirement is that the taint has to be recent - so Riordan, for example, could not have filled in for the Warden. We also don't know when or how the ritual component of the ritual was to be completed - whether it could be done in advance or after the fact with a more mundane sex act, let's say. From what we see, it seems to me that it could - she asks the Warden for his help out of respect, I think.

As far as relative numbers of Wardens, it seems to be the case that there were maybe a couple dozen in Ferelden (deceased), perhaps ten times as many in Orlais (enough to send about that many with Riordan initially), and many, many more at the headquarters of the order in the Anderfels. Anyplace with more Wardens to work from (and where they hadn't until the reign of the previous king been illegal) would have a bigger recruiting base than the Ferelden branch, which seemed to rely on Duncan personally visiting every recruit at home, and had to avoid stepping on too many toes by recruiting too widely.

I mean, yeah, there aren't nearly as many Wardens as there are Templars, given that no matter how effective their training, you stand an even chance of dying at your Joining...but new recruits should be relatively easy to come by.

Anyhoo, still don't think the OGB would make a good player character. Really, the heroic part of heroism entails succeeding despite unfavorable odds and personal risk.

[thats1evildude]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Since there's so little actual information about the nature of the ritual, I don't think it's necessarily true that the male participant has to be willing (or even aware).

Then why did Morrigan need to ask at all?

Megaton_Hope wrote...

From what we see, it seems to me that it could - she asks the Warden for his help out of respect, I think.

And if Morrigan hates the Warden, or left the group some time before the battle at Redcliffe?

And, as another poster pointed out, if the DR was performed despite the Warden's refusal to participate, then why did the Warden/Alistair/Loghain die?

[Fast Jimmy]

thats1evildude wrote...

And, as another poster pointed out, if the DR was performed despite the Warden's refusal to participate, then why did the Warden/Alistair/Loghain die?

I would say the most likely option is the Morrigan secretly performed the ritual with Riodan after you refused. After all, you don't alert him about doing it, why should he divulge that secret to you?

And it could be that if the Warden who participated in the DR is dead, then the Warden who performs the killing blow also dies. Since Riodan dies in battle before the AD is slain, then whoever kills him also dies. The protection could only be effective if the Warden who did the ritual is alive. Or even possibly was the one who did the ritual, since if you do the DR or have someone else do it, only they/you can make the kill blow.

Maybe the Ritual itself offers protection, protection that is not conveyed to other Wardens (but still allows the OGB soul to be gathered).


Its a plot handwave, for sure, but they could make it happen.

[Pasquale1234]

Or - she could have gone over to Redcliffe's tavern, slipped the joining juice into the patron's drinks, and convinced one of the survivors to do the ritual with her. Recent recruit, and willing.

[Fast Jimmy]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Or - she could have gone over to Redcliffe's tavern, slipped the joining juice into the patron's drinks, and convinced one of the survivors to do the ritual with her. Recent recruit, and willing.

Well, I'm not sure Morrigan or anyone in the party had any "joining juice" handy? Although Riordan was able to whip up a batch for Loghain on the fly, so... I guess its possible?

[Megaton_Hope]

thats1evildude wrote...

Then why did Morrigan need to ask at all?

Why assume that it was a need? In terms of the gameplay, she asked to offer the player a choice between two alternatives with their own consequences, as per everywhere else in the game. And because a female Warden would have to designate a male surrogate, since women can't impregnate one another.

It seems to me that there's no good reason that the Warden should decide who Loghain has sex with or doesn't. Obviously the Warden is necessary to convince Alistair, who would otherwise abjectly refuse. (Since he hates and fears Morrigan.) And it seems to me that it's only polite to ask the Warden before engaging the Warden in intercourse. But Loghain's his own sovereign person, creepy usurper that he may be. Warden's not the boss of him.

Well, the Warden is the boss of him in other respects, but not that one. That's just a weird concept.

And if Morrigan hates the Warden, or left the group some time before the battle at Redcliffe?

And, as another poster pointed out, if the DR was performed despite the Warden's refusal to participate, then why did the Warden/Alistair/Loghain die?

I dunno about your game, but my Warden un-died and became Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine after that. Stranger things have apparently happened. Maybe Morrigan lied about what the ritual actually was?

[Pasquale1234]

Morrigan seemed to know enough about the joining and Warden lore in general, that I wouldn't think it inconceivable that she could have made some. I had always guessed that Howe/Loghain knew what had become of the Warden's stash in Ferelden, thus it was possible for Loghain to do the joining. And if she was that set on doing the DR, she may very well have had a backup plan in place, and swiped whatever ingredients she would have needed.

In any case, BioWare could easily come up with some reason for the existence of an ogb, regardless of whether the player chose to do the DR.

It is fun, though, to think about the possibilities.

[thats1evildude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I would say the most likely option is Morrigan secretly performed the ritual with Riodan after you refused. After all, you don't alert him about doing it, why should he divulge that secret to you?

I assume you're referring to Riordan's revelation that a Warden must die to kill the Archdemon. My answer: because it's the decent thing to do? 

I mean, if I was sending a pair of raw recruits (one of whom was potentially the king) to battle an ancient god of evil, I'd let them know that at least one of them has to bite it in order to slay said godspawn.

And again, if Riordan could perform the ritual, why not just do it with him? He was the one who intended to kill the Archdemon, after all.

You could say "Well, the Warden was Morrigan's friend". But what if Morrigan hated the Warden, and vice versa? What if the Warden was female and romancing Alistair? It quickly stops being a kindness that Morrigan was extending to her "friend".

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maybe the Ritual itself offers protection, protection that is not conveyed to other Wardens (but still allows the OGB soul to be gathered).

No, that's not how it works. Alistair can impregnate Morrigan but it can be the Warden who lands the killing blow. He/she still doesn't die.

Megaton_Hope wrote...

It seems to me that there's no good reason that the Warden should decide who Loghain has sex with or doesn't. Obviously the Warden is necessary to convince Alistair, who would otherwise abjectly refuse. (Since he hates and fears Morrigan.) And it seems to me that it's only polite to ask the Warden before engaging the Warden in intercourse. But Loghain's his own sovereign person, creepy usurper that he may be. Warden's not the boss of him.

But Loghain IS determined to slay the Archdemon and give his own life. Plus, he's faithful to his deceased wife. Like Alistair, Morrigan needs the help of the Warden to convince him to participate in the DR.

Megaton_Hope wrote...
I dunno about your game, but my Warden un-died and became Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine after that. Stranger things have apparently happened. Maybe Morrigan lied about what the ritual actually was?

Technically, you did not return to life. Importing a Warden who died into Awakening retcons that choice — you never made the Ultimate Sacriice.

I'm not making that up. It's from the Awakening FAQ on this very site.

Bioware wrote ...

If a player wants to, they can import their "Dead Warden" into Awakening and play as them. For the story it's assumed that they didn't make the ultimate sacrifice, instead somehow survived. A player would start as the same level with the same gear as their "Dead Warden". Essentially, if a player doesn't have a problem hand-waiving the story in this regard - neither do we.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Or - she could have gone over to Redcliffe's tavern, slipped the joining juice into the patron's drinks, and convinced one of the survivors to do the ritual with her. Recent recruit, and willing.

The 'Joining juice', as you put it, is a specific mixture of darkspawn blood and lyrium. Assuming that Morrigan even knows how to make it, I hate to see what the guy was drinking beforehand that he wouldn't notice the rather gruesome mickey that was just slipped in his ale. Not to mention the whole problem of the Joining cocktail causing blackouts and actually killing some of those who drinked it. That certainly wouldn't help my libido.

Patron: Maker's Breath, I just passed out from finishing off my ale, and I wake to find everyone else in the bar DEAD! My, but that does put a damper on the evening!
Morrigan: But you're still good for a roll, right?
Patron: … Yeah, all right.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[Tatinger]

@Jasmine96: see Baldur's Gate.

Modifié par Tatinger, 09 mars 2012 - 04:03 .

[Pasquale1234]

thats1evildude wrote...

The 'Joining juice', as you put it, is a specific mixture of darkspawn blood and lyrium. Assuming that Morrigan even knows how to make it, I hate to see what the guy was drinking beforehand that he wouldn't notice the rather gruesome mickey that was just slipped in his ale. Not to mention the whole problem of the Joining cocktail causing blackouts and actually killing some of those who drinked it. That certainly wouldn't help my libido.

Patron: Maker's Breath, I just passed out from finishing off my ale, and I wake to find everyone else in the bar DEAD! My, but that does put a damper on the evening!
Morrigan: But you're still good for a roll, right?
Patron: … Yeah, all right.

LOL...

And when he wakes up the next morning with a hangover and visions of the archdemon, he finds a note she left him:

Thanks for a memorable evening, and don't worry about child support.
The other Grey Wardens are marching to Denerim if you'd like to join them.  You'll get used to the nightmares.
Take care,
Morrigan

IIRC - I think you also need archdemon blood to concoct the joining.  Presumably, the Fereldan Wardens had the supplies stashed somewhere, and Howe/Loghain seemed to have gotten their mitts on the Warden documents and supplies.  Or - heck, maybe Riordan brought some with him.  Either way, I think Morrigan would have opportunities to liberate whatever she needed.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 09 mars 2012 - 05:06 .

[thats1evildude]

Jasmine96 wrote...

I just heard a line from sandal in the game that makes me think he's talking about the OGB it goes like...
"One
day the magic will come back, all of it. Everyone will be just like
they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide."
"When he rises, everyone will see."
I'm thinking Old God Baby

Nah, he was talking about Fen'Harel. Or Corypheus. Or maybe the Maker …

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 mars 2012 - 05:15 .

[thats1evildude]

The Maker does not hate magic. Who do you think created magic? The Maker only hates those who would abuse magic to rule or to harm others.

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world or beyond."

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 mars 2012 - 05:34 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Morrigan seemed to know enough about the joining and Warden lore in general, that I wouldn't think it inconceivable that she could have made some.

Since the Witch of the Wilds has been around...for a phenomenally long time, it does seem to me that Flemeth, at least, could both know the formula for the Joining drink and possess the necessary materials for creating it. (If the Wardens can preserve blood from an Archdemon from one Blight to another, somebody as subtle and powerful as Flemeth can get her hands on some. Archdemons are big, they got a lot of blood.)

In the game it would appear that she hangs all her hopes on the Warden and Alistair, just because they're the only two Wardens in all of Ferelden at the time...but it must all work toward some ulterior motive, since she could as easily support any other Warden in the same role. (I don't see any particular reason that she couldn't follow the Blight to Orlais, if she had to; her long sojourn in the Korcari Wilds seems to be more habit than anything else.)

[Tatinger]

Jasmine96 wrote...

Tatinger wrote...

@Jasmine96: see Baldur's Gate.

I've never played Baldur's Gate,
I don't know what you're talking about

Without giving away any potential spoilers (or at least, trying not to), Baldur's Gate (made by BioWare), may be exactly the story you're looking for.  They've proven, at least once, that your idea is doable by them.

Modifié par Tatinger, 09 mars 2012 - 05:37 .

[TEWR]

The question remains: if there was another way to obtain the Old God's soul, even if it took a little longer, why not just do it? If she was worried about the Blight or simply needed the Old God dead, there were better ways of dealing with the problem than entrusting the treaties to a pair of inexperienced Wardens.

Like you said, the Old God probably needed to be dead. Or at least, dying.

Inexperienced Wardens may not have been the best option entirely, but it was the best available option. Normal men can't kill the Archdemon and Loghain made sure that the Wardens of Orlais couldn't enter Ferelden.

It was either give the treaties to inexperienced Wardens and hope they can pull off defeating the Blight or wait until Ferelden was swallowed by the Blight and the Orlesian Wardens aren't being held back anymore. Flemeth may have survived by her own magic that shielded her hut from the Darkspawn, but the nation wouldn't have.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 mars 2012 - 09:15 .