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Regarding the endings and overall plot consistency (or lack thereof)


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#1
Draemien

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Like most of you all hanging out in this "spoilers allowed" forum, I've read about the overall plot of ME3 and seen many of the end-game videos available on youtube. And I think it's safe to say that like most of you, I'm terribly disappointed with what I've witnessed.

Many of the critics, however, point at the lack of a happy ending as the reason for their dissatisfaction. To which the fanboys promptly reply that a flowery ending would not be realistic and bold enough, given the circumstances and scale of the war. Albeit the concerns from both sides are valid, the problems with the game and its story are much deeper than that.

First of all, I need to say that I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with grim endings. Matter of fact, I usually really like them. I played the original Deus Ex - the game that obviously "inspired" (euphemism for rip-off)  the ME3 endings (we will come back to it later) - back when it was released and I loved the dark tone of the endings. Join the illuminati, merge with the AI Helius or send the world back to a dark age?

None of the choices was easy, but they all made sense. They were coherent to the story and the story itself was cohese too. Most importantly, there was closure. Unfortunately, that is clearly not the case with Mass Effect 3. 

So here's my two cents on the matter. 


I - THE (BROKEN) PREMISES OF THE STORY

I was pretty satisfied when I finished ME2 and was under the impression that the Reapers' goal was to basically evolve by harvesting new (diverse) forms of sentient life. It makes sense, as the randomness of natural selection 

should probably be able to come up with new stuff that simple synthetic programming wouldn't achieve by itself. Hence, the Reapers would evolve by absorbing new species, making new reapers, then wiping away all life to catalyse the rise of even newer forms of life. To me, that makes perfect sense.

But now, with ME3, it all (or partially) goes to the drain. They still harvest species to create new reapers, although that is kind of irrelevant now, because their goal and means of achieving it is, pardon my language, just bat-**** retarded.

We learn that the Reapers protect organic life from synthetics by wiping away organics in order to stop them from making synthetics.

Not only it's somewhat a paradox (some might say its not) but the WHOLE thing is based on at least two highly implausible events:

1. That synthetic life will necessarily rebel against organic - clearly false, and nothing more than an overused plot device. Unlike biological beings, machines have no pre-established intincts telling them to reproduced, to conquer space, to kill. Unless they are programmed to do so, they certainly wouldn't have such goals. So there is clearly no inherent threat. It's completely random. 

2. That killing the organics - WITHOUT PREVIOUS WARNINGS - is the best way of protecting them. Really? I mean, that's the best some freaking ancient millions of years old bio-based machines can think of? I guess their age is not giving them any more wisdom. Alzheimer maybe? Seriously, there are thousand of different ways of dealing with the issue that don't require a massive genocide.

Besides, the whole idea is completely contradictory to what Sovereign said in ME1. I mean, what's so hard about understanding "yo, you gonna create synthetics that are gonna kill you, so I'm gonna kill you before you do it". I mean, one might not agree with it, but it just ain't rocket science right? It's actually a fairly simplistic (albeit flawed) reason.

II - THE ENDINGS

Ok, so based upon such premises -  that the reapers are coming to save the galaxy from the hypothetical evil synthetics and that killing organics is the best way to deal with it - we, at the very end of our journey, are given three choices:

a) - Destroy; 
B) - Control; and
c) - Merge

Regardless of what you decide, it doesn't take much to see that no ending really solves the problem stated in the premise. It might solve it, it might not, but if it does solve it, IT DEPENDS ON THE PREMISES BEING FALSE.

If you destroy the reapers, people in the future might eventually make sentient synthetics that achieve "singularity". There won't be any reapers to kill them, so unless premise "1" above is false, we're screwed and all was for naught.

If you control or merge with the reapers, 
people in the future might too eventually make new sentient synthetics that achieve "singularity" (one could argue that in the merge case there won't be the necessity, but its clearly speculation and other isolated that are not part-synth creatures could build those evil synths). In this case, you have the reapers to destroy em in a new cycle. So unless, premise "2" above is false, all is for naught, a new cycle will be necessary, and it would best to just leave the reapers alove in this cycle to begin with.


All that, in my opinion, clearly shows the real issue with the endings and the plot. There is no real logical closure to the story. All we do may not even have an impact in the future. If it does, it's because the reapers premise was flawed, and there was no reason for the cycle to have begun anyhow. Meh.

Also, the whole thing is really poorly written (and I'm not even talking about the kid acting, which is just horrible). It is an obvious "deus ex machina" plot device, where at the last moment of the game, we are presented at the final moment with three magical solutions presented by "The Guardian". Bad writing at its best.


And talking about "deus ex", it seems bioware just ran out of time and tried to rush to come up with something bol for the ending, so they just ripped-off the very original ending of "Deus Ex", coming up with something really disconnected and not logical at all.

In the Deus Ex game, those three choices we had mattered, they would certainly shape the future to come. In ME3, we can only be sure that the choices we make chance the colors of the relays. I may be exagerating a little bit, but certainly not much!

So...ok, we didn't have closure on saving/destroying/changing the galaxy but can at least have a satisfying end to the characters: no! We see em for just fractions of moments and that's it.  We - not only our characters - are left stranded.


But all those issues probably pale in comparison to the last one: the whole idea of having a wide range of choices that would impact the outcome of the game proved - YET AGAIN - to be completely bollocks. You can play however the hell you want and in the end, the outcome is the same.

Do you really expect me to believe that in an universe driven by randomness, with countless possibilities for alliances, enemy factions, new inventions, etc, all our stories would lead to that very same outcome? Just the thought of that is absurd!

It's all about the illusion of choice, really. We are still playing an in-rails RPG, even though they - heavily - advertise that we can make our own story.



III - THE SUPPOSEDLY ORIGINAL PREMISE AND ENDING

I heard on another topic that the original idea was that the Reapers wanted to find a way to stop the spread of Dark Energy which would eventually consume everything.

It went like this: "The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of it's genetic diversity (I know, I know) and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread. The original final choice was going to be "Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left" or "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means." 
Now, reading that really saddens me, because it's such a better story.

Even if the dark energy thing didn't make sense scientifically (does any of the game?), the premise is consistent, not subject to "may or may not". And the final decision would be a really difficult and important choice.

Ultimate sacrifice. Means vs. end. A great parable.

I really can't understand why such a good concept went down the drain. 

#2
Juniper Mucius

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We already have ending threads.  So you might want to post this here, because Stanley will (justly) close this repeat thread.

#3
MythicLegands

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The whole thing is nonsense.

#4
Allworkandlowpay

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You don't seem to understand the goals of the Reapers well enough. You are incorrect about a lot of it actually. I'd go into it further, but this thread will be closed shortly by the Woo-ster.

#5
CARL_DF90

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Still, good points are brought up in this one. Worth a read at least.

#6
AkiKishi

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Should definately repost it in the longer thread.

#7
Hexxys

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Allworkandlowpay wrote...

You don't seem to understand the goals of the Reapers well enough. You are incorrect about a lot of it actually. I'd go into it further, but this thread will be closed shortly by the Woo-ster.


He didn't go into much detail, but then again he didn't really need to.  He's essentially right.  That is essentially what the reapers are doing, without going into their reasoning.  Which is based on a questionable premise in the first place I might add.

#8
Pr3ying M4nt15 360

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The main thing I don't understand is if the Catalyst AI controls the Reapers and is the Citadel. Why is it that after the signal that is sent to the Keepers was altered that the Citadel relay could no longer be triggrered in ME1 and that they needed Soverign to override manual control.

couldn't catalyst just open the relay itself and i thought harbinger led the reapers no catalyst

#9
Dexi

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Actually the plot is pretty damn smart.
And it makes a lot of sense.

But if you can't see it, it doesn't mean it's stupid. Of course, every enraged fanboy here with biased opinion and clouded judgement will deem the plot as stupid and without sense just because it isn't the plot they wanted/created in their mind.


But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Again, it does, and it's quite smart.

Modifié par Dexi, 05 mars 2012 - 10:07 .


#10
Hexxys

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Dexi wrote...

Actually the plot is pretty damn smart.
And it makes a lot of sense.

But if you can't see it, it doesn't mean it's stupid. Of course, every enraged fanboy here with biased opinion and clouded judgement will deem the plot as stupid and without sense just because it isn't the plot they wanted/created in their mind.


But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Again, it does, and it's quite smart.


Most of us can make sense of it.  That's not the same thing as it making sense, nor is it the same thing as it being good.  Or "smart".

#11
AkiKishi

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Dexi wrote...

Actually the plot is pretty damn smart.
And it makes a lot of sense.

But if you can't see it, it doesn't mean it's stupid. Of course, every enraged fanboy here with biased opinion and clouded judgement will deem the plot as stupid and without sense just because it isn't the plot they wanted/created in their mind.


But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Again, it does, and it's quite smart.


It makes about as much sense as it did in FFX with Yevan. It's one nutjobs theory.

The Dark Judges were originally a group of lawkeepers from a parallel dimension. They were led by Judge Death, who had determined that all crime was committed by the living. Thus, by his logic, all life was a crime. Originally mortal, the four Judges encountered Phobia and Nausea (the Sisters of Death) in a cave. The Sisters were death cultists and mass murderers with supernatural powers, and the four Dark Judges became undead beings, subsequently murdering the entire population of their world.

Makes perfect sense right ? Crime free world Posted Image

#12
Provo_101

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^ lol @ "JUDGE DEATH"

That name just made me spit out my drink! Love it!

#13
Guest_HiResTextures_*

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Draemien, great quality post. And no, there isn't a need to insert it in the thread with 13,000 replies because it'll get lost in the bickering. Also, that op's point is significantly less detailed.


Allworkandlowpay wrote...

You don't seem to understand the goals of the Reapers well enough. You are incorrect about a lot of it actually. I'd go into it further, but this thread will be closed shortly by the Woo-ster.

Apparently, neither do the Reapers themselves.......

Soverign said...

We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom.

Harbinger said...

Human, you've changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

So are they our doom or salvation? Those seem like 2 different things to me. ^_^

Modifié par HiResTextures, 05 mars 2012 - 10:49 .


#14
Broder O

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You know I really preferred ME1's reapers where they said that their reasons were so far beyond our understanding it was like trying to talk to an insect or something..

That leaves room for a lot of different plot lines..
But locking it into that they're saving us by destroying us based on an unproven theory of a along dead race?
That's just.. bad.

#15
Nachtritter76

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Concerning OP's "killing the organics - WITHOUT PREVIOUS WARNINGS - is the best way of protecting them" broken premise: I agree. I mentioned it in another thread but I'll mention it here again: Colossus - The Forbin Project , had an AI that commanded mankind's respect without destroying it even though it was completely capable of doing so (and it proves its capability and willingness to do it on one occasion).

Ultimately, I think that explaining the Reapers and almost humanizing them (or at least, showing their goals and thinking to be completely knowable) cheapened them.

For such eons-old beings, they really didn't evolve much. When you think of it though, why limit themselves?

Oh, I know, to write really intelligent hard sci-fi, you must have the skill and knowledge in the first place. It's pretty hard to write about super-smart people when you aren't smart yourself. That's like asking Michael Bay to make a sequel to Tarkovsky's Solaris; you just know it's gonna fail hard.

#16
Nachtritter76

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Also:

"But all those issues probably pale in comparison to the last one: the whole idea of having a wide range of choices that would impact the outcome of the game proved - YET AGAIN - to be completely bollocks. You can play however the hell you want and in the end, the outcome is the same."

See this?

This is why pen and paper RPGs *still* can't be beat.

#17
Dreogan

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Nachtritter76 wrote...

Also:

"But all those issues probably pale in comparison to the last one: the whole idea of having a wide range of choices that would impact the outcome of the game proved - YET AGAIN - to be completely bollocks. You can play however the hell you want and in the end, the outcome is the same."

See this?

This is why pen and paper RPGs *still* can't be beat.


True. But you have to admit for them not to even put in a text-based epilogue for such a choice-based series is amazingly lazy, even for Bioware's recent endings.

#18
SichoPhiend

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It is my fear that the plot accomplishes exactly what it was intended to do, set the ground work for an MMO.
Let's face it for an MMO you need a few things.
Multiplay ability...check
World/Universe to explore...check
People to save...check
Cataclysm in backstory...helpfull
If based on a non MMO game, a clear singular ending...check

I hope that I am wrong, but it appears that that the script and plotline were written by the marketing team and not the devs. I'm afraid that from everything I've seen and read, that this game seems like a really big commercial for another project.

#19
Treopod

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Well written OP, i agree completely, and notice how everyone who tries to defend the plot usually doesnt present any valid arguments, and sometimes nothing at all.

This plot is simply bad, even if you understand it fully, those that defend it are the ones that lack the comprehension to see how shallow and inconsistent it is.

#20
What a Succulent Ass

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Dexi wrote...

Actually the plot is pretty damn smart.

No, sorry. It's actually quite idiotic. This comes from changing the reapers' motivation two-thirds through the series, an act that has not created plot vortices, but has run completely contrary to previously established themes.

Does that make the story bad? Not necessarily. But it sure as hell drags it down.

#21
What a Succulent Ass

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Also, great post, OP. But this thread will be locked.

#22
Grand Wazoo

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Nice read OP. The main problem was that the writers tried to overcomplicate a story which was not a complicated story to begin with.

#23
Pedro Costa

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Random Jerkface wrote...

Also, great post, OP. But this thread will be locked.

Agreed. Rather enjoyable read.

#24
Jerryk72

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The main problem is the main writer, the guy who wrote the books and led the writing team in the original game was not involved at all in this one.

#25
xxBUCK_NUTSxx

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Completely agree with everything stated.

The Reapers reasoning should probably have never even been revealed to us. What was the point of collecting the war assets? Gathering all of the races together? Just to have Shepard end up making a decision in the end.

What I would have loved to see is for The Reapers to be harvesting organic life in order for them to reproduce or evolve as species do themselves.

It built up so high, I'm thinking "Hey, I'm finally going to stop these things from wiping out the universe, I'm going to break the cycle and save all organic life!" Then I find out that the Reapers reason was to kill us before we made other synthetics to kill us and it's just a giant WTF moment for sure..