100 réponses à ce sujet

[J-Reyno]

I thought that watching Kelly be processed during ME2 was much more traumatizing. That **** was nasty.

As for the kid, I care but I don't at the same time. I guess I can see it kind of being a representation of the people of Earth... Shepard taking the "you can't help me" line as something that's true for everyone he wants to save. Not just the kid, but all of humanity. It's not a HUGE stretch, really. I play 80% renegade, 20% paragon, and also have the ruthless background. I've still never imagined my Shep as a heartless bastard in the slightest. If anything he wishes that he DIDN'T have to be as ruthless as he is sometimes, but knows that someone has to get stuff done. Watching a kid die wouldn't be pleasant to him under any imaginable circumstance.

[Capeo]

dw99027 wrote...

brfritos wrote...

dw99027 wrote...

You want absolute freedom in creating a character? Play PnP. You want an engrossing story and deep character interactions delivered through gigs of recorded and voice-directed dialogue? Deal with limitations. I swear, people think devs just pull games out of a wishing well..

Or play Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas, you have complete freedom and control of your character, you kown.

Is not something "impossible", it requires only a little good will from the devs.

I have played those games and they were great. But 'deep character interactions'? Not possible with a mute protagonist. Hence 'limitations'. To each his own, my friend. I grew up on BG1 but I prefer a more cinematic feel nowadays.

Huh?  Not possible with a mute protaganist?  You're kidding right?  So ME is the only RPG with deep character interactions?  No, I think not.  

[SlyTF1]

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. My Shepard purposely got all his team mates (except for Tali and Garrus) killed at the end of ME2, I killed every person the game allowed me to kill, and now all of a sudden my Shepard values a human life. Why?

Edit: Oh and I will personally be handing over Earth to the Reapers on a silver platter. In hopes of becoming indoctrinated myself to serve under them for the rest of eternity.

Modifié par SlyTF1, 05 mars 2012 - 01:33 .

[Muskau]

The real question is, why does Shepard have bad dreams about a kid after all the people dying around Shepard all the time, all the way back to the origin story.

The dream sequences should have had the Virmire choice Kaidan or Ashley appear, not some rnadom kid.

[Rob_K1]

Shepard watches kid playing at the start. It could be he's watched the kid over the course of his 'lock-up' time. Even if not, Shepard saw the kid, couldn't/didn't help and he then watches the kid get blown up. The kid represents all of the new generation being lost back home, as well as the current generation. Ones that Shepard cannot help. Kid also represents everything you're fighting for, a future for the new generations (and the current).

I've no doubt that I will get the 'no crap, sherlock, response'.

Edit: And what Aesiru says below.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 05 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[Aesieru]

Renegade doesn't mean evil.

[Corvus Metus]

A little story that might put this into perspective.

There's a grindcore band called The County Medical Examiners. The band's gimmick is each member is either in med school or graduated with a PnD and at one point one of the members actually worked in a morgue.

Needless to say, he saw a lot of death. Even a lot of violent death. And he was pretty morbid about, quick to making pretty black jokes in the interview. But guess what?

Dead children still bothered him. Dead children, he didn't know. Why?

Because dead children represent a cruel loss of innocence. Needless death. A future denied.

As even Renegade Shepard (baring a couple poorly written choices) is a "big goddamn hero" of course he would be shaken by seeing a kid die.

[push2play]

Corvus Metus wrote...

As even Renegade Shepard (baring a couple poorly written choices) is a "big goddamn hero" of course he would be shaken by seeing a kid die.

The problem is not that Shepard is shaken by a loss of life, the problem is that we've lost so many so close to us along the way that seeing Shepard become emotional at this particular death is nothing short of ludicrous. It's simply atrocious writing, going after the most basic impulses and hoping it'll ellicit a response. Seriously, having gone through ME1 & 2, I'm simply insulted by this cop out.

[veramis]

Bioware could've made full renegade shepard not show too much emotion at watching that scene, maybe mince words with anderson instead of standing around chatting while at any moment reapers can eat them. Then for paragon do the scene we see right now. This would give the player the belief that if they try to go paragon everything something bad might happen, and the game might actually care about your choices.

[SlyTF1]

Corvus Metus wrote...

A little story that might put this into perspective.

There's a grindcore band called The County Medical Examiners. The band's gimmick is each member is either in med school or graduated with a PnD and at one point one of the members actually worked in a morgue.

Needless to say, he saw a lot of death. Even a lot of violent death. And he was pretty morbid about, quick to making pretty black jokes in the interview. But guess what?

Dead children still bothered him. Dead children, he didn't know. Why?

Because dead children represent a cruel loss of innocence. Needless death. A future denied.

As even Renegade Shepard (baring a couple poorly written choices) is a "big goddamn hero" of course he would be shaken by seeing a kid die.

This is war. People die. It wasn't needless. Like Shepard said, they're buying him time with their lives. If this is what he believes, why is he so upset about it? Besides, I want my Shepard devoid of emotion and it's supposed to be an RPG game. I thought it was supposed to be kind of a personal thing like the ME series has been from the start. If it where me, I would understand that people die, so it's kind of counterproductive to the whole "personal decisions" thing.

Modifié par SlyTF1, 05 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[Rob_K1]

SlyTF1 wrote...

Corvus Metus wrote...

A little story that might put this into perspective.

There's a grindcore band called The County Medical Examiners. The band's gimmick is each member is either in med school or graduated with a PnD and at one point one of the members actually worked in a morgue.

Needless to say, he saw a lot of death. Even a lot of violent death. And he was pretty morbid about, quick to making pretty black jokes in the interview. But guess what?

Dead children still bothered him. Dead children, he didn't know. Why?

Because dead children represent a cruel loss of innocence. Needless death. A future denied.

As even Renegade Shepard (baring a couple poorly written choices) is a "big goddamn hero" of course he would be shaken by seeing a kid die.

This is war. People die. It wasn't needless. Like Shepard said, they're buying him time with their lives. If this is what he believes, why is he so upset about it? Besides, I want my Shepard devoid of emotion and it's supposed to be an RPG game. I thought it was supposed to be kind of a personal thing like the ME series has been from the start. If it where me, I would understand that people die, so it's kind of counterproductive to the whole "personal decisions" thing.

But 'Shepard' isn't totally your character. You have to 'choose' from the options BioWare's given you. Sure, you have freedom to a limited extent, but he is never truly your character, as you are choosing options BioWare presents. It is impossible to make such a game unless, as has been mentioned, it's PnP. Then you have true freedom.

One thing though, I have seen instances in the streams where you can specify 'how Shepard is feeling' when asked. Still, it is obvious BioWare wants us to see how much of a toll the events of the game are taking on Shepard.

Honestly, I'm all for it, though I can understand people not liking not being to control the vast majority of dialog. It'll make him more human and into more of a real character in my view, by them taking more control.

If you think about it as well, Shepard would for the most part only ask 'why is such and such?' or reply with one - two liners for the most part, whereas other characters did most of the talking.

That said, I understand the point of roleplay is to not take such a literal approach as I have done here in this post. So, I do understand people thinking Shepard's their character, but at the same time, you have to realise you're simply using the options BioWare presents you to mould him.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 05 mars 2012 - 03:19 .

[Corvus Metus]

push2play wrote...

Corvus Metus wrote...

As
even Renegade Shepard (baring a couple poorly written choices) is a "big
goddamn hero" of course he would be shaken by seeing a kid die.

The
problem is not that Shepard is shaken by a loss of life, the problem is
that we've lost so many so close to us along the way that seeing
Shepard become emotional at this particular death is nothing short of
ludicrous. It's simply atrocious writing, going after the most basic
impulses and hoping it'll ellicit a response. Seriously, having gone
through ME1 & 2, I'm simply insulted by this cop out.

As I said, there are real life medical examiners who are still shaken by the death of children.   They see dead bodies everyday, many who have met violent ends and pretty much feel nothing.  Yet when many of them see the body of a child who is a victim of a violent crime they are moved.

Same goes for a lot of police officers.  Hell, even some soldiers come back saying dead kids in warzones bother them.  This is all stuff in real life.

It's one thing for Shepard (or anyone) to watch a starship blow up.  It's impersonal.

Even being forced to sacrifice a friend in order to complete a mission is another matter entirely.  When you're a soldier going on a suicide mission you don't expect to live. 

But that little kid didn't expect to die.  He was just a child, playing with his toy starship, expecting to go home to his parents, sit down for dinner and maybe watch a vid or two on the extranet before his mom and dad tucked him in at night and kissed him good night.   He never expected everything to be cut short because a race of machine-gods descending from the heavens and destroyed everything he loved - only for his own young life to be extiguished. 

It's symbolic if everything Shepard is fighting for.  Paragon or Renegade, (s)he is fighting so that people like the boy don't have to die.  But he does anyway and that is why it effects them.  Haven't you ever been effected by something that wasn't deeply personal, because it reminded you of something that was?

SlyTF1 wrote...

This is war. People die. It wasn't needless. Like Shepard said, they're buying him time with their lives. If this is what he believes, why is he so upset about it? Besides, I want my Shepard devoid of emotion and it's supposed to be an RPG game. I thought it was supposed to be kind of a personal thing like the ME series has been from the start. If it where me, I would understand that people die, so it's kind of counterproductive to the whole "personal decisions" thing.

If you want a character that is entirely yours, play a table-top role-playing game. 

And no, I don't mean that in a snarky way.   I can't think of a single computer RPG that I've played where I felt that I had complete control of the character.  Maybe Planescape: Torment came close.  Most of the time, I just have to pick the best possible choice - and it doesn't always fit what I have in my head.   Personally, I learned to cope with it almost a decade ago.

[Super.Sid]

Mommy hates children

[What a Succulent Ass]

The kid thing is silly, but not for your reasons, OP.

Still, those dream sequences are painful to watch.

[BatmanPWNS]

If you're so butthurt about that scene just pretend that Shepard was paying respect to the other people who died on the shuttle.

[exskeeny]

My belief and rationalisation of the scene in the demo is that Shepard is obviously affected by the destruction all around. It is merely focused and magnified on that child as a symbol of humanity and Shepards inability to save everyone, regardless of his paragon/renegade actions.

[Zeldias]

The bit with the kid was hamfisted to begin with. No disrespect to the writers, but it was just so transparent and awkward. Couldn't Shepard have at least noticed the kid elsewhere, had a bit of interaction with him and stuff beforehand? The kid scene where you first met him just strikes me as corny. I hate to put it that way, I wish I could phrase it better, but it was just made my eyes roll. It would've been better if the kid hadn't talked, I think, but the piano music was also pretty bad. It was trying so hard to make me care about this random kid and give this foreshadowing to what the kid said that I feel the scene fell flat.

It would've been best if it had been a scared dog that tentatively reached out to Shep only to be torn apart by crap falling down. People generally get upset by the deaths of animals, and the corpse could've actually been shown (as opposed to how BW probably would've shied away from the corpse of a random white kid). Animals evoke the same feelings in some ways as kids do (helpless, innocent, whatever) but since they can't speak, the bad dialogue is avoided.

If it had to be a kid, just make the kid silent. I'm willing to buy that the kid is what pushes Shep over the edge emotionally, but the scene itself is just ugh.

I'd need to see the dream sequence to say anything about that, but I'd hoped that there'd be a scene involving both Shep's personal background, military history, and some stuff from the previous ME games, culminating in showing the kid. Not just the kid alone being forced to be some symbol for Earth and all sentient life.

[Witty_Remark]

Zeldias wrote...

The bit with the kid was hamfisted to begin with. No disrespect to the writers, but it was just so transparent and awkward. Couldn't Shepard have at least noticed the kid elsewhere, had a bit of interaction with him and stuff beforehand? The kid scene where you first met him just strikes me as corny. I hate to put it that way, I wish I could phrase it better, but it was just made my eyes roll. It would've been better if the kid hadn't talked, I think, but the piano music was also pretty bad. It was trying so hard to make me care about this random kid and give this foreshadowing to what the kid said that I feel the scene fell flat.

It would've been best if it had been a scared dog that tentatively reached out to Shep only to be torn apart by crap falling down. People generally get upset by the deaths of animals, and the corpse could've actually been shown (as opposed to how BW probably would've shied away from the corpse of a random white kid). Animals evoke the same feelings in some ways as kids do (helpless, innocent, whatever) but since they can't speak, the bad dialogue is avoided.

If it had to be a kid, just make the kid silent. I'm willing to buy that the kid is what pushes Shep over the edge emotionally, but the scene itself is just ugh.

I'd need to see the dream sequence to say anything about that, but I'd hoped that there'd be a scene involving both Shep's personal background, military history, and some stuff from the previous ME games, culminating in showing the kid. Not just the kid alone being forced to be some symbol for Earth and all sentient life.

Ugh, I rolled my eyes when the kid said 'you can't help me'. It was so heavy-handed. Really.

The scene would have been a hundred times better if the kid had been too scared to go off with some stranger or even to talk to them. And I get Shepard's emotional response when the child dies.

But the dream sequences and the Guardian thing is all just going too far with it. At that point it's not a poignant matter of harsh realities and dreams cut short. It's just forced emotion which never works out for me.

Watching the kid die in the first place was a little cliche, but still workable and I admit the first time I saw it my eyes stung a little. But how it opened and how it ends is just, bleh. No subtlety at all.

[Juniper Mucius]

Shepard doesn't kill for fun. He kills when he needs to. Or out of revenge. Have you actually played these games?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Zeldias wrote...

I'd need to see the dream sequence to say anything about that

If you thought the intro scene was as hamfisted as I did (which you apparently do), then when you see the dream sequence...o lawds, smh.

You'll be suffering from cringe-lock. Don't even start on the Guardian, which was just all sorts of terrible from many different perspectives.

[the_one_54321]

BioWare has said from day 1 that Shepard would be a heroic character, no matter what other personality interpretations you were allowed to make.

Why would anyone think they could make a Shepard that was a psychotic, uncaring killer?

[Comrade Goby]

dw99027 wrote...

brfritos wrote...

dw99027 wrote...

You want absolute freedom in creating a character? Play PnP. You want an engrossing story and deep character interactions delivered through gigs of recorded and voice-directed dialogue? Deal with limitations. I swear, people think devs just pull games out of a wishing well..

Or play Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas, you have complete freedom and control of your character, you kown.

Is not something "impossible", it requires only a little good will from the devs.

I have played those games and they were great. But 'deep character interactions'? Not possible with a mute protagonist. Hence 'limitations'. To each his own, my friend. I grew up on BG1 but I prefer a more cinematic feel nowadays.

What about Planescape:Torment?

One of the most "emotionally engaging" RPG's ever created.

And it only has like 20 spoken lines! OMG OMG 

No get Jessica Chobot to voice it, that will make it better!

[Scar X_X]

i understand it maybe because i have a super paragon shep but for a cold renegade it is a bit strange

[Silasqtx]

There are some hints throughout the game imo. First, when he/she and Anderson walk through the rubble after the vent scene, Shepard states both to him and Anderson that no matter what they do, they're still powerless against the Reapers. Standing on the Normandy seeing all that destruction incapable of doing anything strengthens this feeling.

The kid itself incarnates Earth's civilians: scared, hopeless, doomed. Shepard knows that and he's haunted by those dreams throughout the game. He also talks with Garrus about it and states that he would've gladly changed places with those people.

[All-a-Mort]

How long before some tool turns up in this thread complaining Bioware sold out renegade players because you weren't able to shoot the kid?

The kid is symbolic of the innocents on Earth Shepard is unable to save. He has survivors guilt and is having to deal with the knowledge that all the time he is elsewhere in the galaxy, people on Earth are dying and that he feels he should be back there with Anderson fighting instead.