117 réponses à ce sujet

[Baronesa]

Aesieru wrote...

mireisen wrote...

Maybe he watched through all the cutscenes?

Most Insanity players are on NG+ or another PT so they just "spacebar" themselves out? That's what I did and got around 40 after all is said and done.

Oh I never skip scenes in anything.

I only skip if reloading an earlier save to correct a mistake or a bug... Like death syphon destroying the bodies of enemies that have plot items inside of them on DA2...

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Welcome to the bright side!

Tomorrow all will be informed of grade of the RPGness of ME3!

[Bleachrude]

mireisen wrote...

Maybe he watched through all the cutscenes?

Most Insanity players are on NG+ or another PT so they just "spacebar" themselves out? That's what I did and got around 40 after all is said and done.

I did insanity on my first playthrough and still had 100% completion and did all of the DLC (except for Arrival, no team-mates and no party interaction? no cash from me) and just clocked 38 hours.

(I read faster than I listen though so, I do admit that this might have affected my time but not to the extent of another 10+ hours) 

[MeanderingMind]

I really only (knowingly) got into BioWare games with DA:O and ME1 and they blew me away. Was a hallelujah moment like Half-life 1 or somesuch. I immediately bought ME2 and... didn't like it as much. More shooter and less rpg, less atmospheric.

Lots of DLC which I bought uptil Arrival when I said enough is enough, this isn't the experience I fell in love with from ME1. Many things were different but it was still mostly good. Afterwards however, I often discover when I think about ME universe and the love I had/have for it, it's mostly moments from the first game that I remember and took to heart.

Dragon Age Origins was another awesome experience and a game I've played through many times. With DA2 I did the same waiting game as now with ME3, mostly because the change they did with ME2 which made me cautious (different teams yes, but still). Lack of availability on steam was another factor. As it stands now, after watching hours of videos and reading a ton of posts, ME universe ends with the second installement for me. ME3 just doesn't seems like the kind of gameplay I like anymore.

It was a short and sweet ride for me although I bought KOTOR due to all the praise I found while looking around. Played maybe 10 hours and loving it so far. Still have NWN in its original box, tried it, didn't like it (discovered recently that it was BioWare). Never played Baldurs Gate, but another old gem from what I understand.

[Aesieru]

Baronesa wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

mireisen wrote...

Maybe he watched through all the cutscenes?

Most Insanity players are on NG+ or another PT so they just "spacebar" themselves out? That's what I did and got around 40 after all is said and done.

Oh I never skip scenes in anything.

I only skip if reloading an earlier save to correct a mistake or a bug... Like death syphon destroying the bodies of enemies that have plot items inside of them on DA2...

I got to the 2nd to last boss (the mage Harvester demon guy) in DA2 and the boss was so imbalanced and so poorly designed for a BioWare game that it made me pissed off and I just stopped playing, never did complete the game, saw scenes instead. I was hating that game and the huge health bars tho.

[Revan67]

My mass effect 2 playthroughs usually average around 36-40 hours each time. I did a casual speed run (just the main story) and it took me about 20 hours. (Thats with skipping most scenes).

To be fair that time estimate includes Shadow Broker, Kasumi, Arrival

Modifié par Revan67, 05 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[Aesieru]

Croak99 wrote...

I really only (knowingly) got into BioWare games with DA:O and ME1 and they blew me away. Was a hallelujah moment like Half-life 1 or somesuch. I immediately bought ME2 and... didn't like it as much. More shooter and less rpg, less atmospheric.

Lots of DLC which I bought uptil Arrival when I said enough is enough, this isn't the experience I fell in love with from ME1. Many things were different but it was still mostly good. Afterwards however, I often discover when I think about ME universe and the love I had/have for it, it's mostly moments from the first game that I remember and took to heart.

Dragon Age Origins was another awesome experience and a game I've played through many times. With DA2 I did the same waiting game as now with ME3, mostly because the change they did with ME2 which made me cautious (different teams yes, but still). Lack of availability on steam was another factor. As it stands now, after watching hours of videos and reading a ton of posts, ME universe ends with the second installement for me. ME3 just doesn't seems like the kind of gameplay I like anymore.

It was a short and sweet ride for me although I bought KOTOR due to all the praise I found while looking around. Played maybe 10 hours and loving it so far. Still have NWN in its original box, tried it, didn't like it (discovered recently that it was BioWare). Never played Baldurs Gate, but another old gem from what I understand.

I liked KotOR, and even KotOR II from Obsidian and not BioWare. I even liked NWN by BioWare and NWN2 by Obsidian. But Obsidian couldn't hold a candle to BioWare back then. I never did Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale or any of those the closest to that style I did was DA:O and Diablo II and its LoD expansion.

I prefer linear RPG's or rpg's that are hybrid linear, because they have a designated story path. I like open world occasionally but Bethesda couldn't hold a candle to BioWare either.

---

This may be the last BioWare game I buy.

I got TOR but even that is beginning to fade on me... maybe every 4 months after some new content is there I'll resubscribe for a month.


---

Revan67 wrote...

My mass effect 2 playthroughs usually average around 36-40 hours each time. I did a casual speed run (just the main story) and it took me about 20 hours. (Thats with skipping most scenes).

To be fair that time estimate includes Shadow Broker, Kasumi, Arrival

I explore a lot.

Modifié par Aesieru, 05 mars 2012 - 03:24 .

[Mox Ruuga]

I think I saw a few "Investigate" options in some of the streams... but it is true there is too much non-prompted dialogue from Shep.

And the endings are indefensible.

However, I do like what I've seen of the gameplay, and might end up getting the game after all (despite having said otherwise in the past after I found out about the tri-color endings)... It will leave a sour taste, and will feel like a betrayal from Bioware, but screw it; it can't be as bad as DA2 at least...

[Aesieru]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I think I saw a few "Investigate" options in some of the streams... but it is true there is too much non-prompted dialogue from Shep.

And the endings are indefensible.

However, I do like what I've seen of the gameplay, and might end up getting the game after all (despite having said otherwise in the past after I found out about the tri-color endings)... It will leave a sour taste, and will feel like a betrayal from Bioware, but screw it; it can't be as bad as DA2 at least...

I have a massive understanding of all ME lore, the endings in regards to the reasoning for the Reapers and what happens to the relays are easily defensible, the state of the game is harder to defend.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Aesieru wrote...

This may be the last BioWare game I buy.

I got TOR but even that is beginning to fade on me... maybe every 4 months after some new content is there I'll resubscribe for a month.

TOR was a dishonor to the franchise. KOTOR III is forever cursed not to be developed.

[OdanUrr]

Aesieru wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I think I saw a few "Investigate" options in some of the streams... but it is true there is too much non-prompted dialogue from Shep.

And the endings are indefensible.

However, I do like what I've seen of the gameplay, and might end up getting the game after all (despite having said otherwise in the past after I found out about the tri-color endings)... It will leave a sour taste, and will feel like a betrayal from Bioware, but screw it; it can't be as bad as DA2 at least...

I have a massive understanding of all ME lore, the endings in regards to the reasoning for the Reapers and what happens to the relays are easily defensible, the state of the game is harder to defend.

I'd appreciate it if you could PM me an explanation as to why the relays get destroyed. I'm trying to reconcile this with what a relay is and how they work.

[Chromie]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

This may be the last BioWare game I buy.

I got TOR but even that is beginning to fade on me... maybe every 4 months after some new content is there I'll resubscribe for a month.

TOR was a dishonor to the franchise. KOTOR III is forever cursed not to be developed.

I have never been more dissapointed at an MMO.

[AkiKishi]

This is pretty much what happened when DA2 was youtubed by normal people with no vested interest in the game.

Everyone has their point of enough is enough.

Ringo12 wrote...

I have never been more dissapointed at an MMO.

Victims of their own hype. Same is true of ME3. I don't think it's a bad game. But it's been "missold" by the developers.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 05 mars 2012 - 03:36 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

From what I've seen so far (about 50%)?

Yeah, those are pretty much true. Especially the auto-dialogue. Shepard will never STFU.

[MeanderingMind]

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KotOR, and even KotOR II from Obsidian and not BioWare. I even liked NWN by BioWare and NWN2 by Obsidian. But Obsidian couldn't hold a candle to BioWare back then. I never did Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale or any of those the closest to that style I did was DA:O and Diablo II and its LoD expansion.

I prefer linear RPG's or rpg's that are hybrid linear, because they have a designated story path. I like open world occasionally but Bethesda couldn't hold a candle to BioWare either.

---

This may be the last BioWare game I buy.

I got TOR but even that is beginning to fade on me... maybe every 4 months after some new content is there I'll resubscribe for a month.

I was heavily into Diablo II and expansion also, great game. Discovered Bethesda primarily with Morrowind but also really liked Oblivion. Sadly I think they took a nosedive with the, even for them, extremely buggy Skyrim. Also actually thought the game so boring I haven't been able to finish it. Coming from 250h+ from each of the previous games, that says a lot.

That's two new games with very high anticipations beforehand going sour.

If BioWare hadn't set the bar so very high with ME1, maybe coming into ME3 fresh, without prejudice, would've changed my outlook. But the world and gameplay they made me love is primarily ME1 and not ME3.

[Femlob]

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KotOR, and even KotOR II from Obsidian and not BioWare.

It's hard to tell, but with the The Sith Lords Restored Content mod I think I like KotOR II better.

[Aesieru]

Femlob wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KotOR, and even KotOR II from Obsidian and not BioWare.

It's hard to tell, but with the The Sith Lords Restored Content mod I think I like KotOR II better.

There's TOO MUCH content in that, too much illogical content.

One part of the restored mod has 5 battles one after another, and you're going to die on one of them. It's like they just made it so repetitive.

I prefer it without that honestly.

Croak99 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KotOR, and even KotOR II from Obsidian and not BioWare. I even liked NWN by BioWare and NWN2 by Obsidian. But Obsidian couldn't hold a candle to BioWare back then. I never did Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale or any of those the closest to that style I did was DA:O and Diablo II and its LoD expansion.

I prefer linear RPG's or rpg's that are hybrid linear, because they have a designated story path. I like open world occasionally but Bethesda couldn't hold a candle to BioWare either.

---

This may be the last BioWare game I buy.

I got TOR but even that is beginning to fade on me... maybe every 4 months after some new content is there I'll resubscribe for a month.

I was heavily into Diablo II and expansion also, great game. Discovered Bethesda primarily with Morrowind but also really liked Oblivion. Sadly I think they took a nosedive with the, even for them, extremely buggy Skyrim. Also actually thought the game so boring I haven't been able to finish it. Coming from 250h+ from each of the previous games, that says a lot.

That's two new games with very high anticipations beforehand going sour. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

If BioWare hadn't set the bar so very high with ME1, maybe coming into ME3 fresh, without prejudice, would've changed my outlook. But the world and gameplay they made me love is primarily ME1 and not ME3.

 

I also thought the start of Skyrim was far too boring especially when it threw me into smithing and really with no direction. I didn't enjoy that.

Modifié par Aesieru, 05 mars 2012 - 03:54 .

[Aesieru]

After seeing this leak...

This is one of the things that got me excited.

Apparently the majority of those convo's are gone now.

Modifié par Aesieru, 05 mars 2012 - 04:15 .

[Ryuuken117]

Aesieru, do you know the story of Elizabeth and Abraham?

Richard Garriott arguably created the modern CRPG. His Ultima series popularized moral choice systems, a story-based RPG and innovative party-based combat. Origin Systems Inc., Garriott's developer, had the motto "We Create Worlds," and besides creating excellent series like Ultima and Wing Commander, incubated great game designers like Warren Spector (Deus Ex, System Shock II). In the booklet for Baldur's Gate, Bioware employees talk about how Lord British's CRPG series inspired them to create what is arguably one of the greatest video games of all time.

They didn't, however, take note of what destroyed the Ultima series. After Origin Systems, Richard Garriott's developer, was bought out, Ultima games suffered a sudden and dramatic loss in quality because the publisher insisted on inappropriate gameplay elements (for example, platforming puzzles in Ultima VIII, because they wanted Nintendo's audience) and rushed deadlines that often gave the Origin team barely months to complete games that had previously taken years. Dialogue got cut. Gameplay elements were cut. Glaring plotholes became commonplace, as Origin's writers found that the strangling deadlines were preventing them from spending enough time on the story.

That publisher was Electronic Arts, and time has not made them kinder or wiser.

Richard Garriott recognized that EA was trouble, and before Ultima VII was released he included two NPCs - Elizabeth and Abraham, a pair of seemingly helpful but ultimately villainous servants of the Guardian. E.A. The "evil generators" the Guardian uses in the game take the form of a globe, a tetrahedron and a cube - EA's logo at the time.

After the critical and commercial failures of Ultima VIII and IX, and the success of Ultima Online, EA ordered Origin Systems to cancel all of its other projects - including Ultima Online 2 - and focus only on Ultima Online, which currently has less than half of a percent of the MMORPG market share. A year later, Garriott left and became a space tourist, becoming literally the first person to make good on the statement "I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

This isn't entirely Bioware's fault, Aesieru. Their only real mistake was not taking the sad story of Origin Systems to heart. They're the victims of a company that doesn't value the art form that video games deserve to be.

[Aesieru]

Ryuuken117 wrote...

Aesieru, do you know the story of Elizabeth and Abraham?

Richard Garriott arguably created the modern CRPG. His Ultima series popularized moral choice systems, a story-based RPG and innovative party-based combat. Origin Systems Inc., Garriott's developer, had the motto "We Create Worlds," and besides creating excellent series like Ultima and Wing Commander, incubated great game designers like Warren Spector (Deus Ex, System Shock II). In the booklet for Baldur's Gate, Bioware employees talk about how Lord British's CRPG series inspired them to create what is arguably one of the greatest video games of all time.

They didn't, however, take note of what destroyed the Ultima series. After Origin Systems, Richard Garriott's developer, was bought out, Ultima games suffered a sudden and dramatic loss in quality because the publisher insisted on inappropriate gameplay elements (for example, platforming puzzles in Ultima VIII, because they wanted Nintendo's audience) and rushed deadlines that often gave the Origin team barely months to complete games that had previously taken years. Dialogue got cut. Gameplay elements were cut. Glaring plotholes became commonplace, as Origin's writers found that the strangling deadlines were preventing them from spending enough time on the story.

That publisher was Electronic Arts, and time has not made them kinder or wiser.

Richard Garriott recognized that EA was trouble, and before Ultima VII was released he included two NPCs - Elizabeth and Abraham, a pair of seemingly helpful but ultimately villainous servants of the Guardian. E.A. The "evil generators" the Guardian uses in the game take the form of a globe, a tetrahedron and a cube - EA's logo at the time.

After the critical and commercial failures of Ultima VIII and IX, and the success of Ultima Online, EA ordered Origin Systems to cancel all of its other projects - including Ultima Online 2 - and focus only on Ultima Online, which currently has less than half of a percent of the MMORPG market share. A year later, Garriott left and became a space tourist, becoming literally the first person to make good on the statement "I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

This isn't entirely Bioware's fault, Aesieru. Their only real mistake was not taking the sad story of Origin Systems to heart. They're the victims of a company that doesn't value the art form that video games deserve to be.

No doubt, although BioWare has defended the actions as being their own, not EA's.

Regardless of if it's true or not, this places the blame on their shoulders as well.

[AkiKishi]

Femlob wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I liked KotOR, and even KotOR II from Obsidian and not BioWare.

It's hard to tell, but with the The Sith Lords Restored Content mod I think I like KotOR II better.

Would have been a heck of a game if they could have finished it as planned.

[BlackFriar]

Aesieru wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

I have to apologize to you, Aesieru. I think our last interaction didn't go over so well, and that was me just upset and not thinking clearly. I hope you understand, and, really, I respect you for posting this.

I personally have moved slightly past the ending issues (a combination of the possibility of it being bugged and headcanoning the rest) and onto the more glaring design issues you mentioned above. It's truly a shame that, endings aside, they made some poor design choices/oversights and could have really done so much more.

It's a shame. I don't think I'll be as thoroughly disappointed as I thought I'd be a few days ago, but I certainly don't think I'll be as impressed as I would have been if they'd gotten more things right.

This isn't an issue with oversight, there's no feasibly way a company with the same designers that made all those great games could actually make a mistake and start making something so reduced. This is either EA tasking them, or their new direction.

I won't defend their actions unless they renew my lol "faith" in them.

I have no need to "headcanon" whatever that means the story, the endings will likely not bother me as much, it is the journey that they so often advertise that will bother me.

But... releasing 15+ trailers took a toll on their finances, I should of realized that'd also show their focus on action rather than the experience of a journey.

My two cents is this...   I'm 51.   I've played CRPGs before the founders of BioWare got out of Medical school and made their first game -- Shattered Steel a DOS-based Mech-shooter.    It was a decent, but not great game. 

Baldur's Gate and it's expansion and sequal were great games.  

Then came NWN.   The story was forced, to be kind..  By the time I got back to NeverWinter I'd given up.   It was tedious and the companions were dull.   The engine was a joke and the DM tools they promised that would be in the game's release never materialized and we got a half-baked mod-making tool with highly limited DM function. If it weren't for the persistent worlds of La La Land and Antioch Reborn, I'd have gotten little value out of the game because the story was meidocre.

Then came NWN:SoU.   Couldn't finish that campaign.  But it was a necessity for the PWs I played on.   

BioWare then redeemed its story telling with NWN:HotU and Jade Empire.     JE, however, was very short and they got a lot of negative feedback for the 18-hour campain.

Then comes KOTOR.   It was still a short campaign, but having been stuck with the JE feedback, BioWare put in a new trick.  Forced-length.   No more could you read-and-move on.  You had to sit there and listen.  PLUS, they padded the length of the game with artificlal running constraints.    Who can forget running back-and-forth-and-back-and-forth-and-back-and-forth across Alderaan, or the caverns and buildings of Taris, or the 'forest tunnels' of Kashyyyk?    I could go on because pretty much ever area was long tunnels, artificially constrained that forced you to constantly run back-and-forth.    In short, it was a CRPG habittrail.   

Dragon Age -- Origns had many of the same issues.   Running up and down the same hill five times...   Or back-and-forth accross the mages college time and time and time and time again...

ME1, more of a console-FPS/CRPG-lite dropped some of the forced length.    The main campaign, plus a handful of side-quests and I was done in 13 hours.     ME2 brought it back.  The incredibly long and dull assemble your crew, listen to them whine, go fix their problems mid-game was tedious.  (BTW, I only bought these bargain bin.  I learned much faster than the average ex-fanboy.)

Then of course, came DA2.  Which caught a lot of you by surprise.   But not me.   The handwriting was on the wall.   BioWare has emphasized production values of full voice-acting and lame, junior-high-school romances,  over story quality and depth.


So now we're here.    A forced ending.  Negating so much of what we fought for.   In a game that's suddenly looking like it's not so great after all.   A game that appears to be deliberately broken to maximize revenues rather than being a great ending to a story.

It's as bad as the rightfully villified forced ending to Fallout.  An ending, btw, Bethesda patched-out of the game.  And a lesson BioWare, but for the fact they're arrogant and refuse to learn from anyone else, should have learned.

[AndersL]

Word, bro.

[BlackFriar]

Baronesa wrote...

Despite all the criticism... or more likely BECAUSE of the criticism, you can tell most people still care about the game/company.

If you care for something, you accept the good things, and try to correct the bad ones. I like Bioware, and I just hope they improve on the things that matter to me, and most of the people that came to love them for their RPG.

Accepting blindly the good and the bad, would only create "yes men" and eventually doom the company. Lumping all the good and bad on fatalistic "DOOOOOM" is also silly.

For those of us who still care and like Bioware, it is good to criticize and do so respectfully and presenting or points of view as clearly as we can.

I did for years.   It all fell on deaf ears.  Further, I was constantly ripped.

Now we have a bunch of high-production-value, lame-romance-simulaters with short, poorly-written main stories that are padded with junk-gameplay.

This isn't the gamer-driven BioWare of BG and BGII.    This is a bunch of rich men in suits trying to figure out how to get the most money out of you for the least amount of effort.

[Ryuuken117]

I know this pain, BlackFriar. I'm only twenty, but Baldur's Gate II was the first and best RPG I ever played. It shaped my love for storytelling and great gameplay in an interactive medium. That's what made Dragon Age II such a betrayal; we were promised a successor to Baldur's Gate, and we got a streamlined mess that bore no resemblance to the epic that made us love Bioware in the first place.

I do, however, take exception to your use of Fallout 3's ending as an example of a betrayal of an otherwise great series. Fallout 3 was internally consistent all the way up to the end, except for one moment (the G.E.C.K. being now a high-science creation kit, justified by a simple if forced retcon) and an illogical choice at the very end.