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[kallikles]

Instead of being a bit of a fool, Cailan listens to the Grey Wardens and realizes the threat may be greater than he realized. Together with Duncan and the other Grey Wardens, he gains the help of the dwarves and elves, forming a truly formidable army. The PC is just one of many soldiers in the army, sent by his people along with hundreds of others.

At Ostagar the battle unfolds. Under the command of the Grey Wardens and Cailan, the army appears to be successful at first, slowly driving back the darkspawn despite sizable losses. Then the unthinkable happens: the Archdemon appears. The Grey wardens and their allies fight on, getting closer and closer to inevitable defeat. In an act of desperation, however, the mages unleash the most destructive of magics. Despite being unable to control the magic they're channeling, they succeed in destroying the Archdemon - as well as most of their own army and even themselves.

Amidst the destruction, you discover that Cailan has miraculously survived it all... and then witness him getting murdered. The murderer notices you and a short fight follows. One which doesn't end all too well.

You awake at Flemeth's hut, several days later. While you don't know it yet, without a king Ferelden has been plunged into chaos. Loghain, Arl Eamon and Arl Howe are fighting for power, each supported by his own troops and allies. Meanwhile, the chantry has decided to blame the mages for the death of both the king and most of his army, sending out bands of templars to eradicate the abomination of magic once and for all.

Moreover, someone has to have been responsible for both the Archdemon's awakening and the murder of the king. Someone who, when he finds out there's a witness to the murder, will probably want you dead - unless you kill him first, or perhaps come to an 'understanding' with him.

/***********************************/

I'll readily admit that I suck at telling stories, and this particular one is really quite bad. The reason I wrote it down anyway is to indicate the things in DA that truly disappointed me.

First among those is the transparency of the storyline. Shortly after Ostagar, you will know what to do: defeat Loghain, gain support among the different factions and races, fight the darkspawn, and kill the Archdemon. The next few dozen hours are spent doing just that. Sure, there are some surprises, but big turns are quite rare. You know what the job is - you're just there to get it done.

Second, and related to the first problem, is the relative linearity of the plot. You get to make some big choices, but they have little effect on how the last few hours of the story play out (in terms of actual gameplay). You can't decide to side with the Archdemon, you can't decide to start working for Loghain, you can't decide to focus solely on increasing your own power and influence. You're a Grey Warden and even if you do influence the world around you, your main task still consists of killing the Archdemon.

Being a Grey Warden might be great at first, but after a while, it gets somewhat dull. As a human noble, I might want to impale Howe and Loghain on Denerim's city square, seize the throne, and crush the dark force that is threatening my lands. As a mage, I might want to cut a deal with that same dark force and aid in corrupting the lands in exchange for unimaginable power. As a city elf, I might want to stage a revolt to take advantage of the chaos, and finally lead my people to true freedom. Etc.

Basically, I wish Dragon Age had more big twists in the story and radically changed the last few hours of gameplay based on your earlier choices in the game.

Then again, maybe that's just me.

PS. Not saying that DA isn't a good game. It is. It just didn't deliver the combination of freedom and story that I hoped it would have.

[RampantBeaver]

I kept expecting Duncan to appear and come out as the main antagonist. Though i think thats because i've played Jade Empire a bit too much...

[Rugaru]

Sounds like you really just wanted a Final Fantasy story line...

[RunCDFirst]

So you want Dragon Age without the Blight.

[Suron]

I'll keep DA the way it is thanks..



but A for effort

[CaisLaochach]

A well told linear story can be infinitely better than a dull open-ended one.

[Serogon]

What's the point of even having there BE a Blight if it's over within the first couple hours of gameplay then the whole story plays out about mages?

[kallikles]

Couldar wrote...

Sounds like you really just wanted a Final Fantasy story line...

I loathe FF.

What I'm thinking of is more along the lines of (an expanded and more ambiguous version of) the ending of KOTOR, with a dash of Fallout (the first two, not the third), Planescape: Torment, the Witcher and VTM: Bloodlines.

Basically, a combination of several intertwined storylines with very distinct endings, where your choices have a considerable and transformative impact on the rest of the game.

[kallikles]

Serogon wrote...

What's the point of even having there BE a Blight if it's over within the first couple hours of gameplay then the whole story plays out about mages?

That's my whole point: the Blight is damn dull as the main antagonist. It's a mindless horde headed by a rather forward evil character, which in this case doesn't even speak. You can't bargain with it, you can only fight it.

No moral ambiguity there.

Loghain is a bit more interesting, but once more, you're not allowed to make any choices that directly impact gameplay. You'll still have to fight the standard final battle whether you kill him or not, you'll still have to raise the same army, etc.

The game lacked the choices to truly transform additional playthroughs into something wholly different.

The main differences are in the subplots. The mages' tower, Orzammar, the forge, Redcliffe, the Dalish, etc. - those all offer interesting options. But options which have fairly little impact on the end result.

[Serogon]

kallikles wrote...

Serogon wrote...

What's the point of even having there BE a Blight if it's over within the first couple hours of gameplay then the whole story plays out about mages?

That's my whole point: the Blight is damn dull as the main antagonist. It's a mindless horde headed by a rather forward evil character, which in this case doesn't even speak. You can't bargain with it, you can only fight it.

No moral ambiguity there.

Loghain is a bit more interesting, but once more, you're not allowed to make any choices that directly impact gameplay. You'll still have to fight the standard final battle whether you kill him or not, you'll still have to raise the same army, etc.

The game lacked the choices to truly transform additional playthroughs into something wholly different.

The main differences are in the subplots. The mages' tower, Orzammar, the forge, Redcliffe, the Dalish, etc. - those all offer interesting options. But options which have fairly little impact on the end result.

You missed my entire point. Why bother having a Blight in the beginning if you're not even bothering with it and it just ends almost immediately? It seems a shame to use a Blight (which this is only the fourth of, and which has nearly destroyed the world before) as a way to introduce some little thing about how people are pissed at mages.

[Dtelm]

So...You want....A dragon age origins without origins. That begins with the end of the blight, in which the grey wardens dont kill the archedemon, rather, the mages blow themselves up, their allies, and the demon.
And then cailan gets assassinated in the middle of a battle field where pretty much everyone just died, but your the only one who sees it, and then the assassin attack you so you wont tell anyone, but he doesnt kill you. You wake up in witches hut.... and then its civil war with the templars executing the right of annulment

And then you have to go and kill the assassin who started a blight so he could kill the king....and forgot to slit your throat after he knocked you unconscious....


Yep, sounds like solid storytelling to me. Way to stick it to those silly writers at bioware!

Modifié par Dtelm, 26 novembre 2009 - 12:54 .

[SeanMurphy2]

It was already such a huge, complex game to make. I am not sure it is possible to have the main storyline branch out into such differerent directions.



I agree with you about Loghain. Ostager was such an intense moment. I would have liked there to be more interaction with Loghain in the mid game and more ambivalence about his decision to abandon the battle. Rather than immediately establish him as a clear villain.



It is still my favourite game though.

[kallikles]

Serogon wrote...

kallikles wrote...

Serogon wrote...

What's the point of even having there BE a Blight if it's over within the first couple hours of gameplay then the whole story plays out about mages?

That's my whole point: the Blight is damn dull as the main antagonist. It's a mindless horde headed by a rather forward evil character, which in this case doesn't even speak. You can't bargain with it, you can only fight it.

No moral ambiguity there.

Loghain is a bit more interesting, but once more, you're not allowed to make any choices that directly impact gameplay. You'll still have to fight the standard final battle whether you kill him or not, you'll still have to raise the same army, etc.

The game lacked the choices to truly transform additional playthroughs into something wholly different.

The main differences are in the subplots. The mages' tower, Orzammar, the forge, Redcliffe, the Dalish, etc. - those all offer interesting options. But options which have fairly little impact on the end result.

You missed my entire point. Why bother having a Blight in the beginning if you're not even bothering with it and it just ends almost immediately? It seems a shame to use a Blight (which this is only the fourth of, and which has nearly destroyed the world before) as a way to introduce some little thing about how people are pissed at mages.

It's not about people being pissed at mages. It's about a kingdom in ruins, with different groups fighting each other (different nobles trying to gain power, chantry vs mages, etc), while you as the main character have to decide which course to take, who to side with and who to trust - while being in constant danger from the force behind it all.

The Blight would serve as a nice setup for the true perils, and connect your origin to the story that follows. Not to mention the fact that an epic battle after the prologue simply inspires. Anything more, and it becomes what it is in the DA we have: the big bad evil that you know you will have to defeat.

It's also why it would be a plot twist - you start out thinking the Blight is your big enemy, only to discover that something far more subtle is the real threat.

[The Angry One]

Actually if it was the *mages* who killed the archdemon, then there'd still be a Blight wouldn't there, it'd just possess something else.

[Serogon]

The Angry One wrote...

Actually if it was the *mages* who killed the archdemon, then there'd still be a Blight wouldn't there, it'd just possess something else.

Well, there are Grey Warden mages. So...

[The Angry One]

Serogon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Actually if it was the *mages* who killed the archdemon, then there'd still be a Blight wouldn't there, it'd just possess something else.

Well, there are Grey Warden mages. So...

Not here there weren't apart from possibly you. The other Grey Wardens present look like the feature spread in Mountain Bandit Monthly.

[kallikles]

Dtelm wrote...

So...You want....A dragon age origins without origins. That begins with the end of the blight, in which the grey wardens dont kill the archedemon, rather, the mages blow themselves up, their allies, and the demon.
And then cailan gets assassinated in the middle of a battle field where pretty much everyone just died, but your the only one who sees it, and then the assassin attack you so you wont tell anyone, but he doesnt kill you. You wake up in witches hut.... and then its civil war with the templars executing the right of annulment

And then you have to go and kill the assassin who started a blight so he could kill the king....and forgot to slit your throat after he knocked you unconscious....


Yep, sounds like solid storytelling to me. Way to stick it to those silly writers at bioware!

With origins, actually. And the assassin (who left you for dead - something that isn't exactly an uncommon plot device) would obviously not be the one who started the Blight, merely a minion.

But eh, that's besides the point. Like I already said in my original post, I'm a terrible storyteller - this story is merely an illustration.

What I want is to play a game where the final enemies aren't clearcut in the beginning and where you can have multiple very different endings, none of which are known after the first few hours of playing.

[Serogon]

The Angry One wrote...

Serogon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Actually if it was the *mages* who killed the archdemon, then there'd still be a Blight wouldn't there, it'd just possess something else.

Well, there are Grey Warden mages. So...

Not here there weren't apart from possibly you. The other Grey Wardens present look like the feature spread in Mountain Bandit Monthly.

Because you saw every single Grey Warden in Ferelden. Did I miss some part of Ostagar where all the Grey Wardens come and say hello...?

[The Angry One]

Serogon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Serogon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Actually if it was the *mages* who killed the archdemon, then there'd still be a Blight wouldn't there, it'd just possess something else.

Well, there are Grey Warden mages. So...

Not here there weren't apart from possibly you. The other Grey Wardens present look like the feature spread in Mountain Bandit Monthly.

Because you saw every single Grey Warden in Ferelden. Did I miss some part of Ostagar where all the Grey Wardens come and say hello...?

You see some other Grey Wardens in the dwarf noble origin.
The ones at Ostagar are said to be a very small group, and no mages are ever mentioned.

Modifié par The Angry One, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:12 .

[kallikles]

The Angry One wrote...

Actually if it was the *mages* who killed the archdemon, then there'd still be a Blight wouldn't there, it'd just possess something else.

The good part about fiction is that it can be changed. The "a warden has to kill the archdemon and will die while doing that" thing wasn't a great plot device in the first place, so why not change it into mages killing the archdemon by using so much magic they shred the fabric between the Fade and the physical world?

Just as plausible, and it has the benefit of replacing the main antagonist with one that can actually talk, scheme against you, etc. Plus, it would provide some nice interaction for mages during the game - no more "Fear me, I'm a mage" dialogue that doesn't do much else, but instead having people who are convinced you're an abomination attack you or flee once they discover you're a mage, with perhaps some veterans who know the mages actually stopped the Archdemon thrown in for variation.

Hey, your origin would actually impact the game...

[Dtelm]

I also seem to remember some reference to mage grey wardens if you play as one. Something about how there have been very few....or maybe that was women...

[The Angry One]

Then why have Grey Wardens at all? Their major feature is that they're the only ones who can stop a Blight. Ever.

[Serogon]

The Angry One wrote...


You see some other Grey Wardens in the dwarf noble origin.
The ones at Ostagar are said to be a very small group, and no mages are ever mentioned.

Just because you see some Grey Wardens that aren't mages doesn't mean there aren't any mages. And about the mages at Ostagar, just because nobody says "Hey, there's some Grey Warden mages here!" doesn't mean there aren't any. There's not even any reason for anyone to bother telling you that.

[The Angry One]

Serogon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


You see some other Grey Wardens in the dwarf noble origin.
The ones at Ostagar are said to be a very small group, and no mages are ever mentioned.

Just because you see some Grey Wardens that aren't mages doesn't mean there aren't any mages. And about the mages at Ostagar, just because nobody says "Hey, there's some Grey Warden mages here!" doesn't mean there aren't any. There's not even any reason for anyone to bother telling you that.

So if I'm a mage Grey Warden recruit, Alistair or Duncan wouldn't bother mentioning this? Maybe to make me feel comfortable?

[kallikles]

The Angry One wrote...

Then why have Grey Wardens at all? Their major feature is that they're the only ones who can stop a Blight. Ever.

Why indeed?

They'd be to darkspawn what the templars are to rogue mages - an order of people dedicated to stopping them, with a few specialist skills and little else.

So you wouldn't even have to join or aid them - you could, but you could also decide to take the Loghain approach and get rid of them when possible. Your interests would overlap (killing whatever awakened the Archdemon), but if you wanted to choose the other side they'd become your enemies.