71 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

There is always the option of fan-fiction.

[archonambroseus]

Plus don't forget that there's only 1 game's worth of Loghain and potentially 3+ games' worth of Blight. ;-)

[kormesios]

I liked the game. However, my complaint with the main plot is similar to that of the OP: Almost everything is what it appears to be in 'chapter 1'. Loghain is a murderer who doesn't believe in the blight, Cailin a foolish slain king, the Grey Wardens sincere but too far to help, the archdemon the source of evil, the potential allies are really allies.

This was disappointing in principle, the more so because I actually think that betrayal scene, where Loghain sounds the retreat, was brilliant. Not completely shocking, but it set a nice tone . . Everyone looking up at the tower where I'd worked to so hard to play the hero, the flame intended to be the sign of victory instead becomes a symbol of treachery and abandonment.

I don't think anything was wrong with the main story, necessarily. The blight is a fine crisis. I think information could have been doled out a little differently, perhaps. Maybe you don't know it's a true blight to begin with? Maybe the potential allies needed to be discovered, not just 'activated'?

Both those suggestions might have made the game more linear, though.

Modifié par kormesios, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:47 .

[SeanMurphy2]

kormesios wrote...

I liked the game. However, my complaint with the main plot is similar to that of the OP: Almost everything is what it appears to be in 'chapter 1'. Loghain is a murderer who doesn't believe in the blight, Cailin a foolish slain king, the Grey Wardens sincere but too far to help, the archdemon the source of evil, the potential allies are really allies.

This was disappointing in principle, the more so because I actually think that betrayal scene, where Loghain sounds the retreat, was brilliant. Not completely shocking, but it set a nice tone . . Everyone looking up at the tower where I'd worked to so hard to play the hero, the flame intends becomes a symbol of treachery and abandonment.

.

I agree the Ostager sequence was amazing. You fight hard to beat the Ogre so you can light the tower, you have the scene with Loghain/Cauthrien reacting to the beacon and then Cailan and Duncan overrun by the Darkspawn.

The next section seems disconnected to the emotion of the King dying, Grey Wardens wiped out and why Loghain retreated. I would have liked another linear section experiencing the confused aftermath of the defeat. As well as some interaction with Loghain where he might justify his decision and set the tone of your relationship with him.

[kormesios]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

The next section seems disconnected to the emotion of the King dying, Grey Wardens wiped out and why Loghain retreated. I would have liked another linear section experiencing the confused aftermath of the defeat. As well as some interaction with Loghain where he might justify his decision and set the tone of your relationship with him.

Apparently you can get the justification, later, though I just killed the bastard.

I'm not sure you could have had a direct interaction with him early that would have made plot sense.  But I see where you're going.  Maybe you could have learned more about him through his henchman, maybe learned a few surprises about his character?

At least as I played it, he was simply a beast throughout, until he showed a brief glimpse of the human he once was at the very end.  Which was a good villain, but again: his role was set in chapter 1.

[cpip]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

The next section seems disconnected to the emotion of the King dying, Grey Wardens wiped out and why Loghain retreated.

I think Lothering was supposed to be that, but it had so much more layered into it -- picking up some more NPCs, starting to get threads for the quests, doing some local quests -- that I can't help but wish there was a bit more in there.

[specter7237]

Granted the Blight antagonist is pretty cliche but Bioware pulls it off way better than most other stories I've seen with it.  And yes the storyline is a bit linear if you look at it that way.  Yes you have a main goal that you have to complete no matter what.  But the complexity of the plot is in how you achieve that goal and how your choices define your character.  I agree that some more large-scale, game-impacting choices could only improve the game, but the ideas you propose would've required an enormous amount of time and recources in a game that already took an enormous amount of time and recources to make.  It's already a Rper's dream as it is. 

Try not to set your expectations too high with video games.  Companies have a limited amount of time and recources to produce a $50 game that people will want to play, and Bioware managed this brilliantly.  DAO already has stellar reviews from most gaming websites and as it is, is a fantastic game.  Could improvements be made, we improvements can always be made with anything; but from a business perspective, when you have a game with this high praise, it doesn't make any sense to spend tons of your recources going out of your way to make additions that aren't necessary.

@SeanMurphy2: I agree more Logain cutscenes after Ostagar looking deeper into his character would've been nice, though we aren't entirely bereft of these anyway.

Modifié par specter7237, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[cpip]

kormesios wrote...
I'm not sure you could have had a direct interaction with him early that would have made plot sense.  But I see where you're going.  Maybe you could have learned more about him through his henchman, maybe learned a few surprises about his character?

This bit -- I would have liked to meet Ser Cauthrien earlier.  (Unless you CAN meet her at Ostagar and I just have missed it so far.)

[kallikles]

cpip wrote...

I'd argue the feasibility of keeping quite so wide a range and still keeping the graphics and voice acting.

One of the downsides of a much more developed graphics & sound engine is a certain tendency towards linearity. The more options presented, the more that has to be recorded, the more space you have to take up and the more you have to pay your voice talent.

Some of the ideas presented would be interesting to include -- but would it be feasible and economically practical to implement them?

Personally, I'd be happy with just two or three different intertwining storylines that become distinct at around 3/4 through the game. They could even share much of the same dialogue and battles (though possibly on opposite sides of the fight).

Sure, the "lots of different endings and paths with your actions dynamically impacting the world" thing is basically my ultimate fantasy in RPGs, but even just a tiny bit of it would be nice.

DA starts of with 6 radically different origins. After that, most big quests have 2 fairly distinct lines. And then, finally, the ending is basically always the same in terms of gameplay.

Basically, your options become fewer and fewer as you play on. That's really a bit... strange.

[specter7237]

kallikles wrote...
Sure, the "lots of different endings and paths with your actions dynamically impacting the world" thing is basically my ultimate fantasy in RPGs, but even just a tiny bit of it would be nice.

Heh, that is my RPG fantasy as well.  Such a game would instantly become the best thing I had ever played.  But Bioware does more than enough to stimulate my RPer Spirit. 

[Durallan]

kallikles wrote...

It's also why it would be a plot twist - you start out thinking the Blight is your big enemy, only to discover that something far more subtle is the real threat.

Theres already a plot twist   you start out thinking the blight is the problem, King Cailan wants to destroy it, Loghain quits the field, cailain and grey wardens die, and loghain declares himself king, turning the country into civil war. Did you think Loghain was going to betray the king before he did? I sure didn't.

[specter7237]

kallikles wrote...
It's also why it would be a plot twist - you start out thinking the Blight is your big enemy, only to discover that something far more subtle is the real threat.

We could spend eternity coming up with infinite plot twists.  Doesn't mean they should be in the game.  It has its own plot with its own twists.  We still don't know all there is to know about what's behind the Old Gods, the Blight, and a plethora of other things.  Perhaps you will get the story you want yet.

Modifié par specter7237, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:51 .

[SeanMurphy2]

cpip wrote...

kormesios wrote...
I'm not sure you could have had a direct interaction with him early that would have made plot sense.  But I see where you're going.  Maybe you could have learned more about him through his henchman, maybe learned a few surprises about his character?

This bit -- I would have liked to meet Ser Cauthrien earlier.  (Unless you CAN meet her at Ostagar and I just have missed it so far.)

I also would have liked to meet and interact with Ser Cauthrien earlier in the game. She has a inside perspective on Loghain.

She can tell you war stories about how terrible the Orlesians were during the occupation. How little this generation of Fereldens value the freedom that Loghain won. How real the threat of Orlesian invasion is and the necessity of quickly winning the civil war to stabilise the Kingdom. It would create more ambivalence about Loghain and his decisions.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:56 .

[kallikles]

specter7237 wrote...

kallikles wrote...
It's also why it would be a plot twist - you start out thinking the Blight is your big enemy, only to discover that something far more subtle is the real threat.

We could spend eternity coming up with infinite plot twists.  Doesn't mean they should be in the game.  It has its own plot with its own twists.  We still don't know all there is to know about what's behind the Old Gods, the Blight, and a plethora of other things.  Perhaps you will get the story you want yet.

It would be nice if there were a few more significant ones in the game, though.

After Ostagar, you know within minutes that you have to recruit armies, get rid of Loghain and kill the Archdemon. And that's exactly what you end up doing. The recruit-an-army quests actually end up being more surprising and interesting than the main questline, especially in subsequent playthroughs.

[RunCDFirst]

Fallout 1 had a rather linear story. Origins is setting up the franchise, you have a lot of world to tell and only so many ways that you can tell it. Wait for the sequel, I'm sure you'll have something a little less "linear" than what we got now. It's like Baldur's Gate vs Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn. SoA was able to be much bigger and more immersive because the first built the foundations of both the engine, world and storyline.

What you want would just be too big for a flagship launch. There's a reason that sequels are often better than originals (in video games). This story has a very clear focus and you don't run the risk of losing your audience in a sea of lore, history, rivalry and politics. Hell, Origins is already heavy with it's own lore, I can't imagine players having an easy time navigating all the different view points and policies with what we have now.

[kormesios]

specter7237 wrote...
We could spend eternity coming up with infinite plot twists.  Doesn't mean they should be in the game.  It has its own plot with its own twists. 

Except it doesn't, really.

Some of the sub-plots are nicely done, and overall I quite like the game.  Interesting charcters & setting, complex relationships, and so on.

But almost totally twist-free.  In the main plot, I count only Loghain's betrayal as a twist, and it happens at the very beginning.  If you want to count Anora (under certain choices) I suppose you can make a case for that. 

But think about it: A player could sit down and describe the game structure, allies, and antagonists while he's recuperating at Flemeth's hut after Ostagar, with 100% accuracy.  The only way you'd make a mistake about the main plot is if you assumed there'd be surprises along the way. 

Even in the sub-plots that could have been twisty on paper, things were usually telegraphed.  The Dalish Ally quest, for example, was a good tale, and the true story could have been a surprise; but you get an obviously shifty quest-giver at the beginning and no red herrings in the course of the whole thing.  The mage tower, Red Cliff, and sacred ashes were all exactly what your first journal entries implied they'd be.  Same with every character-related sub-plot I did.

I've already said I loved how Loghain's betrayal was done, but the only 'twist' really worthy of the name in my playthrough was Branka. Which was also cool.  And not every story needs a twist.  But for my tastes, this one gave up too much information too soon.

[Walina]

@ kallikles : yup, we're just pawns. Alos, we didn't saw a lot Loghain, just twice in cut scene, I kinda missed that.

[Fudzie]

Serogon wrote...

What's the point of even having there BE a Blight if it's over within the first couple hours of gameplay then the whole story plays out about mages?

Because since a Grey Warden didn't kill the Archdemon it's just reincarnated in one of the surviving Darkspawn or something, and the Blight resurfaces as a threat smack in the middle of the story while EVERYONE'S kicking each other's butts.

At least that is how I'd want it to play out, though I'd have it that you run into Cailan dead after regrouping with Alistair and the Grey Wardens get blamed for the king's death, while the Mage's are hunted down for proving to be more harm than help to Ferelden as a whole.

[Rita Torres]

kormesios wrote...


But almost totally twist-free.  In the main plot, I count only Loghain's betrayal as a twist, and it happens at the very beginning. 

Besides, it was clear from the promotional movie that Loghain is going to betray the king . 

For me the storyline was linear and boring. In fact, it's a copy of Mass Effect storyline, and DA:O became a great disappointment after years of waiting. Remember Neverwinter Nigts storyline - in the first chapter you could not guess who hides behind the plague, who are the Old Ones etc. Fenthic execution and Aribeth betrayal were an unexpecting plot twists. I missed such twists when I was playing DA:O.
It seems to me that Bioware chose the path of simplification of its games. Sadly that they decided to follow the trend(

Modifié par Rita Torres, 26 novembre 2009 - 07:41 .

[Boeresmurf]

agree with above.....

the whole story from beginning to end was laid out.. al we had to do was followthe steps.

ofc its a great game, and i am playing it for third time now, i prefer a game where i dont know the end of a plot when i create a character. but ofc its not a real dissapointment since u can still experience the game story in alot of different ways. ( ride with the wolves and burn the dalish, )



like LOTR .. one of the best movies ever.. and we all nkow how it would end from the beginning on

and no one complains about a bad story in that movie

atleast no-one with more as 2 braincells

[SeanMurphy2]

The structure of several Bioware games is you are hunting down the villain and uncovering the mystery of his plans. I am happy that they used a different structure in DA:O. The focus shifts between three story elements Darkspawn/Grey Wardens, Ferelden politics/Loghain and local issues happening in the mid game locations.


But I thought understanding the reasons for Loghain's retreat would be a big part of the game. And that Loghain would have some complicated plan we would uncover.

Or there would be some twist about some human character encouraging the Blight for their own reasons. Or there would be some guy manipulating Loghain. Or the Orlais plot would end up being real.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 26 novembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[kallikles]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Fallout 1 had a rather linear story.[...]

Eh... what?

You could skip every single quest in that game and just blow up the enemy base and kill the bad guy, if you wanted to. And not just that, you could decide to kill the bad guy, but you could also join his mutant army or talk him into killing himself.