160 réponses à ce sujet

[GN-Lelldorianx]

In general, I've been opposed to DLC since I was spoiled in the games of old with what was called a "patch." The industry has changed a lot since then, and patches have come to be bugfixes, while content has become DLC.

I'm going to use Oblivion as a well-established example: there are hundreds of developer-quality mods, but many of them took, in turn, hundreds of hours for multiple people. Having worked on a few of them myself, I know just how much time-for-output I invested, and I'd have a lot more money had I invested that time in my job.

That said, BioWare, you say you are looking for input - here's mine. I really like the way Bethesda went with their Oblivion DLC. They covered everyone's needs: tomes with new spells for the mages in the game, priced at $0.99 for quite a few of them (seen here: http://obliviondownloads.com/), entirely new quests with a side-story unattached from the main plot, but enabling the player to 'take a break' and conquer a new area, the controversial horse armor (totally not worth paying for), and stuff like that.

Do some competitive analysis and take a look at (I think it's called) Battlehorn Keep for Oblivion. This is a great example of how detailed content should be implemented, and what it is worth to gamers. I think it's $7 (the site is currently down, so I can't check). The tomes and other things like that priced at $0.99 appeal to a wide audience of people unwilling to pay for DLC, but secretly pay for the cheaper ones.

edit - as a personal opinion, I like content that can be expanded slowly overtime or where people can return to in the future (such as battlehorn), and have a purpose to be there.  This gives the illusion of more playtime than it is, since it's spread out over a few sessions.  Also take a look at The Thieves' Den for OB, that's another great one.

Hope that helps :/ Killing Floor is another decent example - I'm willing to pay $2.99 for 6 new skins, just to be different from other players... but that's a MP game, so it's different.

Modifié par GN-Lelldorianx, 27 novembre 2009 - 01:27 .

[Loetek]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Velez89 wrote...

Loetek wrote...
i wouldnt bother with any DLC if i were you... make Bioware focus on big expansions... they are just going to nickel and dime us to death.

Truth.

Opinion with little basis in fact, ignoring everything BioWare has said in these forums and all evidence to the contrary. This opinion relies on anti-corporate conspiracy theories that the consumer is the one who determines how much money a corporation can make and is entitled to approve of that company's methods, which is patently false.

We have already said that we are looking into various sizes and varieties of DLC, from small content packages to large content packages. Many forumites prefer less frequent, full-sized expansion packs, which is essentially "diming and quartering" you to death. Six of one, a half-dozen of the other. No matter your opinion, we will endeavour to give the community as a whole (and not a few vocal community members) what they want. Thank you.

How is that false? Its apart of the supply and demand system. Also there is no law, governed by the United States of America or The Maker himself, that says I have to buy ANYTHING from Bioware. If I don't "approve" then yes i technically DO determine how much the company can make. Bioware holds no monopoly on the video game industry.. not to mention video games are hardly a need.

[Raxtoren]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Also, any "guesses" will be seen differently by different people. Some people were incensed that Warden's Keep was "only 45 minutes long," yet some folks enjoyed the 3 or 4 hours they spent on it.

who said it took them 3-4 hours?
seriously ,who?!
How the F, do you play Wardens Keep for 3-4 hours?
You walk in slow-mo 100x around the castle and then leave the pc/console on for 2 hours?

Based on that assumption, then apparently Broken Steel for Fallout 3 is 30-40 hours long.

Modifié par Raxtoren, 27 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[eifel_105]

My only problem with DLC is that the only long lasting effect is gaining items or abilities, which reminds me of "free" MMOs that let players who buy something and have an unfair advantage. Obviously it's not unfair in a single-player game but I don't want to buy a set or two of armour and an extra talent. I want to buy a story, something where the choices I make actually do something besides determing whether I get a longsword or dagger.
I won't lie, I have not and will not buy the current DLC or Ostagar because they do not appeal to me. I will be happy to invest in a mod made by Bioware like what they did with NWN. I want a story, characters, ideas, and maybe some drama. I will be a mod fan for life I'm sure, and I can't wait to see what the community comes up with. If Bioware invests the time into something similar I will buy it the day it releases. I'm simple like that.

[1Ghostlogic1]

Raxtoren wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Also, any "guesses" will be seen differently by different people. Some people were incensed that Warden's Keep was "only 45 minutes long," yet some folks enjoyed the 3 or 4 hours they spent on it.

who said it took them 3-4 hours?
seriously ,who?!
How the F, do you play Wardens Keep for 3-4 hours?
You walk in slow-mo 100x around the castle and then leave the pc/console on for 2 hours?

Based on that assumption, then apparently Broken Steel for Fallout 3 is 30-40 hours long.

I know, I know .... 45 min to go through it .... 2.5 - 3 hours to find all the hidden notes.
 Not everyone has an iq of 10 or higher you know dont make fun of those who are handiapped just cause they have trouble

[Loetek]

Raxtoren wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Also, any "guesses" will be seen differently by different people. Some people were incensed that Warden's Keep was "only 45 minutes long," yet some folks enjoyed the 3 or 4 hours they spent on it.

who said it took them 3-4 hours?
seriously ,who?!
How the F, do you play Wardens Keep for 3-4 hours?
You walk in slow-mo 100x around the castle and then leave the pc/console on for 2 hours?

Based on that assumption, then apparently Broken Steel for Fallout 3 is 30-40 hours long.

Well I remember some guy posting a thread on these forums about falling asleep while playing... that has to take quite a bit of time no?

[LadyRae9]

GN-Lelldorianx wrote...

In general, I've been opposed to DLC since I was spoiled in the games of old with what was called a "patch." The industry has changed a lot since then, and patches have come to be bugfixes, while content has become DLC.

I'm going to use Oblivion as a well-established example: there are hundreds of developer-quality mods, but many of them took, in turn, hundreds of hours for multiple people. Having worked on a few of them myself, I know just how much time-for-output I invested, and I'd have a lot more money had I invested that time in my job.

That said, BioWare, you say you are looking for input - here's mine. I really like the way Bethesda went with their Oblivion DLC. They covered everyone's needs: tomes with new spells for the mages in the game, priced at $0.99 for quite a few of them (seen here: http://obliviondownloads.com/), entirely new quests with a side-story unattached from the main plot, but enabling the player to 'take a break' and conquer a new area, the controversial horse armor (totally not worth paying for), and stuff like that.

Do some competitive analysis and take a look at (I think it's called) Battlehorn Keep for Oblivion. This is a great example of how detailed content should be implemented, and what it is worth to gamers. I think it's $7 (the site is currently down, so I can't check). The tomes and other things like that priced at $0.99 appeal to a wide audience of people unwilling to pay for DLC, but secretly pay for the cheaper ones.

edit - as a personal opinion, I like content that can be expanded slowly overtime or where people can return to in the future (such as battlehorn), and have a purpose to be there.  This gives the illusion of more playtime than it is, since it's spread out over a few sessions.  Also take a look at The Thieves' Den for OB, that's another great one.

Hope that helps :/ Killing Floor is another decent example - I'm willing to pay $2.99 for 6 new skins, just to be different from other players... but that's a MP game, so it's different.

The difference is that Oblivion did not have to jump through the hoops that Fallout 3 and Dragon's Age have to in order to appease MicroSoft. In order for XBox users to download DLC, they have to pay for it, and they have to use a point system in order to do it. Therefore, every game that comes out now that includes XBox as a platform has to charge for DLC and has to use points.

Personally, I'm just grateful that I don't have to go through XBox Live in order to get the DLCs.

[Neil Decurio]

Why do people continuesly insist on comparing time spent versus cost of product, to try and calculate a entertainment value? Why do they feel a need to force a timestamp on everything? Isn't entertainment in the eye of the beholder? You might like a movie/game/song that I don't, and vice versa. Are all entertainment valued purely based on time invested to get entertainment in return? I know I can feel just as entertained by a 90min movie as with a 300min one. Batman: Arkham Asylum was highly entertaining (for me) and I felt I got my money's worth, but in reality it took me 'only' 10hrs to 100% complete it. If I were to always calculate time versus cost, many entertainment mediums would fall mighty short on my 'expectations'. Should also everyone be expected to play through something exactly like you do, and if they take their time enjoying something for a bit longer time than you, does that automatically mean they are worse gamers or "doing it wrong"? Like many of the mathematicians state, TWK took them (supposedly) 30-45min, while it took me roughly 1.5hrs (I guess) on my first go. Perhaps we spent our time there differently? Does that make either of us better gamers or mean either of us "did it wrong"? Most likely, no.



Now let me get something off my chest; I don't typically start a stopwatch, or pay too much attention to the time, when I get really absorbed in games that truly entertain me. You see, this is what I value in a game, and see as what seperates some from the rest. If it makes me forget time, while providing me with fun and I suddenly notice that "Holy maker! It's 8pm!" (after having started to play at noon), I know I am entertained--and thus, as my personal feeling on it, I am getting my money's worth.



Both The Warden's Keep and The Stone Prisoner has been able to still keep me absorbed into the game. I admittedly find it hard to really put a timestamp on either, as I forget time. I can look on my Story and make a rough estimate, I can use a stop watch (wich would distract me from my fun) and time it, but it's too late to time how long I took on the first time around now, but I can guesstimate. I'll agree that TWK is in sense, shorter entertainment than TSP, but I also get slightly buttfussed when people start trying to timestamp TSP (wich for one was FREE); with "I'll be generous and give it 2-3hrs". Generous? Oh thank you, almighty mathematician! No, on a serious note, I find TSP to be so hard to really place a timestamp on if I absolutely were in need of having to do so. I consider Shale, the companion, as part of the entertainment I get for it. So if I bring Shale along through all my adventure, I feel I get more entertainment out of it, than if I don't take 'it' along.



Anyways, I have been entertained with what I have paid for. If you didn't, well.. I'll be honest, that's not my problem. We have developers stating they have plans for several different sizes of DLC and hinting slightly towards plans for expansions here and there. But they are also seriously so right about the statements that it is dangerous to give too much information early. The gaming community often takes uncertain statements as carved in stone, and will flare up if something were to change at a later date. It is smarter to not give out too much information. Some information is however good, but I feel they are wetting my appetite enough by stating they have plans for several different sizes of content for the future. It's vague enough to include longer and shorter DLC packages, and an expansion, if not even an sequel. Thanks for responding honestly to the community, BioWare.

[Dragon Age1103]

Seems like ppl are just impossible to please. Read up on it before you buy it but don't purchase DLC then complain. Its DLC not an expansion. I mean new characters, dialogue, armor, weapons, talents, back story, history, conversations but just no pleasing some ppl. Keep crying DLC haters!!! $7 is so much money!!!!!! PAUSE NOT!!!!

[Oeacle]

Gabochido wrote...

Hey Oeacle,

I'm sure there will be mods that include infinite dungeons where you can spend hours and hours fighting darkspawn, and you will get those for free. Excellent value!

For those who want frequent, quality updates that include cutscenes and well designed gameplay situations, well, I'm afraid there's a cost, so its a good thing there's also a demand.

Having said that, I've been making sure to tell our designers that there's a loud group of people in the forums that only seem to care about the length of what they get.

I chuckled.

As far as I know, there was no quality in the released DLC Warden.

There were no well designed gameplay situations.

You can put a cost on it, fine. I never stated anything as far as not wanting to pay. Nothing is for free, I know that.

What I have claimed is that the standard of the DLC does not meet the standard of the game. They are rushed, and  mindlessly put together. Along comes the crap items, that you don't have to earn and which only further spoil your game, by being overpowered.

You either have a hard time comprehending what I am trying to say or you just don't want to.

Albeit trying to make me look like some random idiot crybaby, that whines for free 1000 hour gameplay with no well thought out story and witty gameplay.


looking forward to the makeup sex.

- In love, Oeacle.

[Rubarack]

The cost/time spent ratio is something of a simplification, but it's one that everyone should easily understand. If Wardens keep offered an entirely different branching storyline and unique encounters based on your race, class, current level, decisions in the storyline and decisions within the keep itself then few would really complain about it being "only an hour long". But it doesn't, it's a fairly linear romp through a set of simple encounters with a few cutscenes and a few speech samples. Any way you judge it the DLC has come out as at the very least twice as expensive as anything Bioware has produced in the past, and by any rational measure considerably more.



Of course Bioware have the ability to continue charging this rate for DLC and continue to patch in hawkers for every one of them. But if they do so then it would be wise for EA to scale back the print runs of Mass Effect 2 and any further Bioware titles.

[phordicus]

hmm, should a dev step back in here:



how much of the engine's capabilities are currently being used, and how likely is it we'll see expanded options such as new script functions and definitions?

[Taerda]

Gabochido wrote... While I can't talk about what's planned for DA's future, I'd like to point out something. Look at how Left 4 Dead's fans reacted when it was announced that the sequel was coming out. They were furious because they didn't get more support towards their "investment" in the original title. I'm afraid that consumers have changed a lot in what they expect from products and the business model has had to change with them.
As for Devs speaking out on forums, I know that in general we just want to hear feedback and explain why some things were done the way they were and announce what little we can when there is something to announce, but sometimes I do want to give some people a good slap on the head when they just don't pay attention to what I'm saying.

Two things here:

1st: As a company, you will need to identify your market and your tailoring to that base means success or failure. Many companies have been trying to move the RPG/MMO genres into the FPS market; it is a common theme from DemiGods to Dragon Age: Origins ... many in the gaming community feel these companies are actually missing the mark and actually going to hurt themselves in the long run by trying to broaden or appeal to the FPSers ...

the actual RPG fan hasn't changed, the desire of these companies to make more money by making their market larger has and that is what is driving these "expectations" ... I'm not sure how one can put Left 4 Dead (a FPS that would be in a different catagory) with Dragon Age ... actual RPG fans I think you will find in the long run are different then pure FPS gamers.

2nd: I admire all the interaction between Bio reps and their forumites, I just wince and lose respect for those Bio reps when they stoop to the low road some of those forumites chose to follow. I understand completely the desire to thump some of those that you do not think "get it" or that "ignore what is said" .. yet I admire those reps that for whatever reason rise above their urges to give a slap on the forumite's head.

I know it is frustrating, and that sometimes it is very unappreciative ... yet the way I see it, the better the official responses are, the more loyality I am apt to show towards that company. It does not mean I expect perfection or never feel an outburst may be warrented, only that the higher the bar the reps set for themselves, the more I show them in return in general.

[french lies]

In Disgaea 3 I need to grind for 500 hours to even complete the game so the game is 10 times more value for my dollar than Dragon "Age".

[french lies]

On a more serious note, while I understand that it's frustrating for people who work 16-hour days on making a quality game to see people measuring the value of their work in terms of hours of gameplay/asking price, the Bioware reps would do well in being more careful and measured in their responses. Noone was ever won over by an insult, but even the most unreasonable will lend an ear when respect is shown at the other end of the table.

[supakillaii]

Man, wish I could work at BioWare... Pity they don't have an office in Finland ;_;

Anyway, I'll be buying the DLCs, for better or for better. There is no worse for BioWare... *cough*

[Sharmatan]

Woah, so many brown nosers in this thread.



Oeacle : excellent posts mate.



and bioware staff get of your high horses and consider what you are typing on these boards.



Show some professionalism.

[tinfish]

I think it would be nice to throw in a few enchanters board missions, with each DLC.
Most of these require no cutscenes, or any lenghty conversations.

Would have been nice to see these sort of missions refreshed at times

I find it especially ammusing that Bioware are given the blame here and not EA.

Modifié par tinfish, 27 novembre 2009 - 02:31 .

[FedericoV]

Oeacle wrote...

I chuckled.

As far as I know, there was no quality in the released DLC Warden.

There were no well designed gameplay situations.

You can put a cost on it, fine. I never stated anything as far as not wanting to pay. Nothing is for free, I know that.

What I have claimed is that the standard of the DLC does not meet the standard of the game. They are rushed, and  mindlessly put together. Along comes the crap items, that you don't have to earn and which only further spoil your game, by being overpowered.

You either have a hard time comprehending what I am trying to say or you just don't want to.

The point is that you think that your opinion is the final truth. Moreover, you think that since you are a customer you have the right to treat Bioware's devs like ****.

As a matter of fact, Warden Keep is a commercial product. The only objective way to judge Warden value is commercial success. Warden was a great commercial succes. You fail.

Personally I love it. It was one of the finest and darkest quests of DA:O. The background story was great. The battles were good, I liked the final one a lot. I've made each dialogue and side quest. Read all journal entry. Spent a quarter of hour on a certain point where you have to decide to use or not Avernus research. Another quarter of hour choosing wich side was better. It takes me 3-4 hours to finish it. For 6 € it was worth it (I would have never paid 20 € for Shale tough).

So, it's your call, buy it or not. But whining about DLC is like protesting against rainy day.

[KalDurenik]

Honestly i tried to warn my friend about geting the WK DLC but he went out and did so anyway...

Someone here said it took a person 4-5hours to complete it... Im sorry but did that person fall asleep? Did he let his pet play the game for him?



My friend completed it in 20min (give or take a few min) then i came by and tried it and completed it in around 25-30min... (I read more of the things then him).



Somone here also said "why do you need to put a value on everything?" Because money make the world go around as it is right now.

The game is around 60 hours for me (but then again i play on nightmare)... Going by that the price is around 1$/hour.



Yet if you look at WK DLC the price there is like 14$/hour. Anyway my suggestion before is that they make a "pay what you want" kind of service for DLC (with a minium of like 1.50$) But well its probably never going to happen .

[Riddley313]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Oeacle wrote...
So far I am only seeing crappy, overpriced, and short DLCs with overpowered items in the future.

Bioware, it is your fault. You set a high standard with DA, which is an excellent game.

Now if we compare the DLCs with the game, it is really sad. A pile of trash offered to us to get some extra bling bling.

No, I do not expect a 100 hour gameplay for little coin.

Yet 40 min/w.e for the price isn't enough. It isn't enough when we compare it for what we got with the actual game DA.

You set the standard, now stand up to it.

I'm sorry that we are unable to customize our DLC to satisfy each individual player's DLC wants and needs. We try to use our resources to greatest efficiency, which involves pleasing as many people as possible all at once. It's possible that your DLC wishes will be missed now and again, but there's nothing we can reasonably due to ensure your happiness with everything we do.

Fair enough. But, I have a question (sorry if this has been covered elsewhere) - with Warden's Keep, why exactly are the doors sealed off forever once you leave? It seems somewhat odd, considering myself and quite a few other people paid to explore the area, and now we can't access it anymore.

[VanDraegon]

Oeacle wrote...

Gabochido wrote...

Hey Oeacle,

I'm sure there will be mods that include infinite dungeons where you can spend hours and hours fighting darkspawn, and you will get those for free. Excellent value!

For those who want frequent, quality updates that include cutscenes and well designed gameplay situations, well, I'm afraid there's a cost, so its a good thing there's also a demand.

Having said that, I've been making sure to tell our designers that there's a loud group of people in the forums that only seem to care about the length of what they get.

I chuckled.

As far as I know, there was no quality in the released DLC Warden.

There were no well designed gameplay situations.

You can put a cost on it, fine. I never stated anything as far as not wanting to pay. Nothing is for free, I know that.

What I have claimed is that the standard of the DLC does not meet the standard of the game. They are rushed, and  mindlessly put together. Along comes the crap items, that you don't have to earn and which only further spoil your game, by being overpowered.

You either have a hard time comprehending what I am trying to say or you just don't want to.

Albeit trying to make me look like some random idiot crybaby, that whines for free 1000 hour gameplay with no well thought out story and witty gameplay.


looking forward to the makeup sex.

- In love, Oeacle.

You can speak for yourself and how you feel in regards to the DLC but is isnt supported the the majority of Dragon Age fans. The Bioware devs graciously posting here, interacting with the community, dealing with all the flames and trolls can speak for the thoughts, ideas and process as to why and how stuff was implemented with this game. Trolling them only makes you look immature.

KalDurenik wrote...

My friend completed it in 20min (give
or take a few min) then i came by and tried it and completed it in
around 25-30min... (I read more of the things then him).

Somone here also said "why do you need to put a value on everything?" Because money make the world go around as it is right now.
The game is around 60 hours for me (but then again i play on nightmare)... Going by that the price is around 1$/hour.

Yet
if you look at WK DLC the price there is like 14$/hour. Anyway my
suggestion before is that they make a "pay what you want" kind of
service for DLC (with a minium of like 1.50$) But well its probably
never going to happen .

I call BS on your 20-25 min claims. If the game only took you 60 hours to complete you skipped a lot of content. No wonder you want more for nothing, you rush through the game. Money does make the world go around as you said, expecting a for profit company to donate their time and resources to you for your personal entertainment is beyond selfish.

The public in general has little idea of what it takes to get a job done. Doesnt matter if you are a game dev or a blue collar home trades contractor. Unless you have personal hands on experience doing the work, everyone tends to under value the final product. Either you accept this and pay what they ask for thier product or you move on to a different hobby. How about you fire up the toolset and make somethign youself then put it out there for the rest of us to judge its worth?

Modifié par VanDraegon, 27 novembre 2009 - 05:13 .

[Charliff01]

Warden's keep actually took me around 2 hours....guess i am one of those mental handicapped who really shouldn't be playing this game as some dorks suggested....



On a more serious note: keep the dlc's coming and don't get anti-fora please because of a few spoiled kids who use the anonymous-mode to say whatever they want to say 8)

[Gabo]

french lies wrote...

On a more serious note, while I understand that it's frustrating for people who work 16-hour days on making a quality game to see people measuring the value of their work in terms of hours of gameplay/asking price, the Bioware reps would do well in being more careful and measured in their responses. Noone was ever won over by an insult, but even the most unreasonable will lend an ear when respect is shown at the other end of the table.

I appologize if anything I said was offensive or insulting to anyone. If I did, I would like to know what it was though, since I was pretty sure I've been quite respectful. Just as we as a company can build better games with the feedback, I'd like to perfect my forum manners.

[Kailieann]

I tend to judge games based on a cost:entertainment value ratio.



If the amount of hours of entertainment (by which I mean 'actually being entertained', not just 'playing for the sake of playing') I get is higher than the amount of dollars spent, then the game was worth what I paid for it.



If, on the other hand, the amount of hours of entertainment I get is LOWER than the amount of dollars spent, then there's a problem.



As it stands, I was able to get the deluxe edition on sale for $45-ish dollars, and have spent well over 120 hours on it (and enjoyed at least 100 of them), and with the vast amount of replayability, I only see that increasing. In fact, I've no doubt this will turn out to be my fourth '300+ hours within two months' title.



That said, if I had bought only the standard edition, and then spent, what is it, an extra $7 on Warden's Keep? I don't think I'd be as impressed.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the hour-or-so I spent there, and as part of a package deal, I have no complaints. The problem is, I spent an hour-or-so there, and now I'm done. There's nothing else to do there.

Sure, I could go and do the entire quest another 6-7 times, but I doubt I'd still be enjoying myself after the second or third time.



And, of course, the issue is less about the enjoyment itself, and more about the disparity between the game itself and the bonus content. Dragon Age, if I'd gotten the standard edition, would already have a cost:entertainment ratio of 1:4 and rising. Warden's keep will be lucky to hit 3:1, period.



Now, don't get me wrong. I'm a happy customer, I appreciate what you guys are trying to do to keep your fans happy, and I'm more than willing to keep paying for more content.

I'm just wary of another Fallout 3 experience. $30 for a 300-hour game, followed by $50 for 10 hours of bonus content.



And for Elgar'nan's sake, do NOT make another Pinnacle Station.