160 réponses à ce sujet

[Gabo]

Oeacle wrote...

As far as I know, there was no quality in the released DLC Warden.
There were no well designed gameplay situations.

What I have claimed is that the standard of the DLC does not meet the standard of the game. They are rushed, and  mindlessly put together. Along comes the crap items, that you don't have to earn and which only further spoil your game, by being overpowered.
You either have a hard time comprehending what I am trying to say or you just don't want to.

I comprehend what you are saying, but I disagree with it personally (I quite enjoyed playing though Warden's Keep) and I'm glad to say that many people also enjoyed it. I'm sorry that you feel that way about Warden's Keep but I can tell you that it was neither rushed nor mindlessly put together.

I do, however, feel that a general feedback we've been getting is based on the playtime length of the DLC, but very few people have really complained about the quality of the plot (except that some things are left unanswered) or the battle design (which closely resembles the general style of the rest of the game). Hence, I have been making sure to tell the DLC team that playing time is what matters most to a lot of people.

[Stanley Woo]

Loetek wrote...
How is that false? Its apart of the supply and demand system. Also there is no law, governed by the United States of America or The Maker himself, that says I have to buy ANYTHING from Bioware. If I don't "approve" then yes i technically DO determine how much the company can make.

Really? By not buying a BioWare product, you, all by yourself, determine how much money BioWare makes? You can state unilaterally that "BioWare only makes X million dollars because I chose not to buy this game"?

I don't think that's the case, Loetek, and that's not the kind of "determine how much money bioWare can make" I was referring to, so perhaps I should be clearer. The market determines what BioWare makes, not individuals. Individuals do their part and, if enough of them do the same thing, it affects the market. That much I understand and I agree with you. Individuals can and do come together to affect the market.

But what I was referring to originally was people who erroneously believe that they know how much money is "enough" for a corporation. People who say that "BioWare doesn't need any more money, they've got enough" or "they made x millions on this game already, why do they need more?" or "I think x millions should be more than enough to pay their salaries."

As for consumer choice, I have always believed that buying a BioWare game is an option, a luxury. Not everyone who rails against BioWare believes that "optional" means "I can choose to not have it," however. Some folks apparently believe that "optional" means "but I waaaaaaaaant it!"

I hope that clarifies my position a little.

[mscotch]

I have no problem paying $5-7 for quality DLC even if it only takes about 45 min. A pint costs about the same and takes much less time to enjoy. I like that it adds new areas to the game and allows me to continue to play DA until the sequel or expansion is released.



If you don't like the DLC or don't think it's worth it, that's fine too, don't buy it. I'm sure Bioware will look at DLC sales and determine whether it's worthwhile to make.

[Zealuu]

Gabochido wrote...

For those who want frequent, quality updates that include cutscenes and well designed gameplay situations, well, I'm afraid there's a cost, so its a good thing there's also a demand.

I certainly hope you're not referring to Stone Prisoner or Warden's Keep with that, seeing how the former was fairly obviously plucked from the main game and distributed as "free DLC" to provide some incentive to go ahead with the whole Bioware/EA account merging process, whereas the latter is basically a seven dollar storage chest - a genre staple which should have been in the party camp to begin with. You don't need to be a rabid believer in all-encompassing government-corporate conspiracies involving chemtrails, evil vaccines, illuminati and quite possibly the Vatican in order to see that.

Interestingly, Return to Ostagar seems to match perfectly with your idea of an infinite dungeon where you massacre darkspawn in a series of recycled dungeon architecture until your eyes bleed. Except it won't be infinite, will it? Please tell me it won't be another 40 minute run, with another disproportionately powerful set of items at the end of it. After all, you must have a fairly precise idea of what you want to do with RtO at this stage, regardless of whether you have yet to think of the next DLC or not.

[MightySword]

DLC/Microtransaction IMO is a way to pay more for less. The trick here is the micro part, a psycology affect so to speak.

A full fledged Expansion pack usually cost around $30-$40, and no matter how wonderful it is, there will be always people complain it does not justify the cost comparing to a full game, and sometime, people just simply hesitant to shelves out that amount of money. DLC just target that line of thinking. At the price of $5-7$ a pop, people will be less hesitant to shelves the money, even if it's not "worth" it. It's a common trick in saling, charge enough to make a profit, but less than enough to make people to care.

And the catch here is lie with the players. If DLC is simply a "pure" micro-transaction then it works for the benefit of everyone. If an Expack cost $30, and the content is dived into 6 mini DLCs for $5 a piece then it's not a problem, and I think ideally that's how things supposed to work. The problem here, the system is exploited by a lot of company and thus for the most part, after you paying $30 for 6 mini $5 DLC, the amount of content usually will be a LOT less than if you had paid $30 for a full expack. Like I said the key here is the psycology effect on people's budget and expectation. Had the developers charged $30, they will have to meet the expectation for that kind of money. However for $5 DLC they don't have to, they can get away with an amount people consider "chump change".

In a way, DLC/Micro-transaction is like communism, it would be a good thing if all parties involves participate in good faith with just about nearly impossible. On the other hand it's the system that just begging to be exploited, which is a much more attracting option.

Modifié par MightySword, 27 novembre 2009 - 06:23 .

[q0rra]

Zealuu wrote...

Gabochido wrote...

For those who want frequent, quality updates that include cutscenes and well designed gameplay situations, well, I'm afraid there's a cost, so its a good thing there's also a demand.

I certainly hope you're not referring to Stone Prisoner or Warden's Keep with that, seeing how the former was fairly obviously plucked from the main game and distributed as "free DLC" to provide some incentive to go ahead with the whole Bioware/EA account merging process, whereas the latter is basically a seven dollar storage chest - a genre staple which should have been in the party camp to begin with. You don't need to be a rabid believer in all-encompassing government-corporate conspiracies involving chemtrails, evil vaccines, illuminati and quite possibly the Vatican in order to see that.

Interestingly, Return to Ostagar seems to match perfectly with your idea of an infinite dungeon where you massacre darkspawn in a series of recycled dungeon architecture until your eyes bleed. Except it won't be infinite, will it? Please tell me it won't be another 40 minute run, with another disproportionately powerful set of items at the end of it. After all, you must have a fairly precise idea of what you want to do with RtO at this stage, regardless of whether you have yet to think of the next DLC or not.

Haha, this is beginning to feel rather silly. Is anyone actually reading Stanley's comments?
Yes, RtO is going to be about 30-40 minutes, no you don't have to buy it, yes there will surely be more DLC that will better suit your demands, no, not everyone thinks Warden's Keep is Warden's Storage Chest, no, RtO won't only contain recycled dungeons whereas you slaughter Darkspawn till your eyes bleed out.

[KalDurenik]

Gabochido wrote...

Oeacle wrote...

As far as I know, there was no quality in the released DLC Warden.
There were no well designed gameplay situations.

What I have claimed is that the standard of the DLC does not meet the standard of the game. They are rushed, and  mindlessly put together. Along comes the crap items, that you don't have to earn and which only further spoil your game, by being overpowered.
You either have a hard time comprehending what I am trying to say or you just don't want to.

I comprehend what you are saying, but I disagree with it personally (I quite enjoyed playing though Warden's Keep) and I'm glad to say that many people also enjoyed it. I'm sorry that you feel that way about Warden's Keep but I can tell you that it was neither rushed nor mindlessly put together.

I do, however, feel that a general feedback we've been getting is based on the playtime length of the DLC, but very few people have really complained about the quality of the plot (except that some things are left unanswered) or the battle design (which closely resembles the general style of the rest of the game). Hence, I have been making sure to tell the DLC team that playing time is what matters most to a lot of people.

I have to agree with what Gabochido said here... The quality is ok / good and so on. However the length (for me and my friend) is abit to short.

[Zealuu]

q0rra wrote...


no you don't have to buy it

Being able to choose or not is quite far from the point - like (presumably) everyone else, I want more content, but I'll also have an opinion on how I want that content to be. Why would they operate this forum and not delete/close any threads pertaining to DLC unless they didn't mind our opinions?

[mscotch]

MightySword wrote...

DLC/Microtransaction IMO is a way to pay more for less. The trick here is the micro part, a psycology affect so to speak.

A full fledged Expansion pack usually cost around $30-$40, and no matter how wonderful it is, there will be always people complain it does not justify the cost comparing to a full game, and sometime, people just simply hesitant to shelves out that amount of money. DLC just target that line of thinking. At the price of $5-7$ a pop, people will be less hesitant to shelves the money, even if it's not "worth" it. It's a common trick in saling, charge enough to make a profit, but less than enough to make people to care.

And the catch here is lie with the players. If DLC is simply a "pure" micro-transaction then it works for the benefit of everyone. If an Expack cost $30, and the content is dived into 6 mini DLCs for $5 a piece then it's not a problem, and I think ideally that's how things supposed to work. The problem here, the system is exploited by a lot of company and thus for the most part, after you paying $30 for 6 mini $5 DLC, the amount of content usually will be a LOT less than if you had paid $30 for a full expack. Like I said the key here is the psycology effect on people's budget and expectation. Had the developers charged $30, they will have to meet the expectation for that kind of money. However for $5 DLC they don't have to, they can get away with an amount people consider "chump change".

In a way, DLC/Micro-transaction is like communism, it would be a good thing if all parties involves participate in good faith with just about nearly impossible. On the other hand it's the system that just begging to be exploited, which is a much more attracting option.

I'd say DLC is more in line with capitalism. I didn't major in economics but I believe it's called price elasticity of demand. The DLC format has obviously been shown to be profitable otherwise game companies wouldn't continue to offer it. The more profit a game makes obviously increases the chances a sequel will be made. The cost of producing games has increased dramatically compared to a decade ago making it necessary for companies to find new sources of revenue in addition to the price of the game itself.

I hope to see much more DLC from Bioware until the sequel is released. 

[toronto13]

Oeacle wrote...
As far as I know, there was no quality in the released DLC Warden.

There were no well designed gameplay situations.

You can put a cost on it, fine. I never stated anything as far as not wanting to pay. Nothing is for free, I know that.

What I have claimed is that the standard of the DLC does not meet the standard of the game. They are rushed, and  mindlessly put together. Along comes the crap items, that you don't have to earn and which only further spoil your game, by being overpowered.

You either have a hard time comprehending what I am trying to say or you just don't want to.

Albeit trying to make me look like some random idiot crybaby, that whines for free 1000 hour gameplay with no well thought out story and witty gameplay.

Quality of the released DLC Warden was on same level with the quality of the main game,it had a great story and you get to learn interesting things about people involved in it,nothing in this game is mindlessly put together and that is why this is the best game ever made.

[Oeacle]

Gabochido wrote...

Oeacle wrote...

As far as I know, there was no quality in the released DLC Warden.
There were no well designed gameplay situations.

What I have claimed is that the standard of the DLC does not meet the standard of the game. They are rushed, and  mindlessly put together. Along comes the crap items, that you don't have to earn and which only further spoil your game, by being overpowered.
You either have a hard time comprehending what I am trying to say or you just don't want to.

I comprehend what you are saying, but I disagree with it personally (I quite enjoyed playing though Warden's Keep) and I'm glad to say that many people also enjoyed it. I'm sorry that you feel that way about Warden's Keep but I can tell you that it was neither rushed nor mindlessly put together.

I do, however, feel that a general feedback we've been getting is based on the playtime length of the DLC, but very few people have really complained about the quality of the plot (except that some things are left unanswered) or the battle design (which closely resembles the general style of the rest of the game). Hence, I have been making sure to tell the DLC team that playing time is what matters most to a lot of people.

Well, everything I wanted to say, has been said.  I will shut up now and linger within the shadows until the next DLC arrives.


*Vanishes.*

Modifié par Oeacle, 27 novembre 2009 - 07:23 .

[Oerwinde]

When it comes to DLC and such for Dragon Age, I'd like to see little $5 packs like Warden's Keep and Return to Ostagar every couple months, with one or two $30 expansions thrown in of the size and quality of Mask of the Betrayer for NWN2. That would be ideal for my tastes, I don't know about anyone else.

[Gabo]

Zealuu wrote...
I certainly hope you're not referring to Stone Prisoner or Warden's Keep with that, seeing how the former was fairly obviously plucked from the main game and distributed as "free DLC" to provide some incentive to go ahead with the whole Bioware/EA account merging process, whereas the latter is basically a seven dollar storage chest - a genre staple which should have been in the party camp to begin with. You don't need to be a rabid believer in all-encompassing government-corporate conspiracies involving chemtrails, evil vaccines, illuminati and quite possibly the Vatican in order to see that.

While I can't individually tell each person who believes this to be true that its wrong, I'll make an effort to clarify with as many as I can.

I'm one of the main gameplay programmers for DA:O and I was there: the stone prisoner and the WK chest were not plucked out of the game just to have DLC content. Its the other way around, you are able to have access to it thanks to the fact that the DLC system exists. Otherwise, we would just be focusing on the next big project and that content that couldn't make it into the game for some reason or other would just be cut and forgotten. 

You should also know that us "insiders" are not allowed to give wrong or misleading information, as that gets us into big trouble. If there's something we'd rather not talk about, then we just won't mention it so if we are talking about it, that means it has to be true (to the best of our knowledge).

Anyway, I'm sure I've bored everyone else by now, I think I'll just start private messaging people so that others don't have to read the same things over and over. 

[Kimberly Shaw]

Gabochido, I have seen only one pervasive comment about the WK DLC, besides that the length was too short (its a compliment in a way, no?) is that it was a very poor design decision to lock the keep from the player after they liberate it and poor advertising because it made many people (myself included) believe you could use the place as a base of operations for the Wardens afterwards.



I don't know who made the decision to lock the Keep up after you free it, but allow me to tell you that from my own feelings and the feedback of many many players, it was a very poor decision and a patch to open the keep up even just to allow people to finish the ancient history quest (never mind talk to Avernus) would be VERY welcome.

[Sibelius1]

Gabochido wrote...

While I can't individually tell each person who believes this to be true that its wrong, I'll make an effort to clarify with as many as I can.

I'm one of the main gameplay programmers for DA:O and I was there: the stone prisoner and the WK chest were not plucked out of the game just to have DLC content. Its the other way around, you are able to have access to it thanks to the fact that the DLC system exists. Otherwise, we would just be focusing on the next big project and that content that couldn't make it into the game for some reason or other would just be cut and forgotten. 

You should also know that us "insiders" are not allowed to give wrong or misleading information, as that gets us into big trouble. If there's something we'd rather not talk about, then we just won't mention it so if we are talking about it, that means it has to be true (to the best of our knowledge).

Anyway, I'm sure I've bored everyone else by now, I think I'll just start private messaging people so that others don't have to read the same things over and over. 

An amateur modder was able to mod a storage chest into the party camp within days of the game's release.

Are we really expected to believe that Bioware programmers were unable to do this, and had to add it to DLC?

[Ghandorian]

Gabochido wrote...

Zealuu wrote...
I certainly hope you're not referring to Stone Prisoner or Warden's Keep with that, seeing how the former was fairly obviously plucked from the main game and distributed as "free DLC" to provide some incentive to go ahead with the whole Bioware/EA account merging process, whereas the latter is basically a seven dollar storage chest - a genre staple which should have been in the party camp to begin with. You don't need to be a rabid believer in all-encompassing government-corporate conspiracies involving chemtrails, evil vaccines, illuminati and quite possibly the Vatican in order to see that.

While I can't individually tell each person who believes this to be true that its wrong, I'll make an effort to clarify with as many as I can.

I'm one of the main gameplay programmers for DA:O and I was there: the stone prisoner and the WK chest were not plucked out of the game just to have DLC content. Its the other way around, you are able to have access to it thanks to the fact that the DLC system exists. Otherwise, we would just be focusing on the next big project and that content that couldn't make it into the game for some reason or other would just be cut and forgotten. 

You should also know that us "insiders" are not allowed to give wrong or misleading information, as that gets us into big trouble. If there's something we'd rather not talk about, then we just won't mention it so if we are talking about it, that means it has to be true (to the best of our knowledge).

Anyway, I'm sure I've bored everyone else by now, I think I'll just start private messaging people so that others don't have to read the same things over and over. 

I don't think you can say this enough times. That comment you where replying to is a very good example of Wild Accusations and displays of foot stomping that defies any rational explanation. It is a shame people powergamed their way through WC and do not appreciate any of its contribution to the game apart from killing some skellies. People ignore the concept that is it there for future playthroughs as well as possible expansion in the future.

I can only picture you you guys having to get up and go for break and some foozball before replying to post like that, but I am glad you do answer them. It is important for people to see bits and pieces of truth through all this childish grandstanding.

[Tattercloak]

Sibelius1 wrote...

An amateur modder was able to mod a storage chest into the party camp within days of the game's release.

Are we really expected to believe that Bioware programmers were unable to do this, and had to add it to DLC?

Ahem.  Actually, I believe it was one of the BioWare devs that kindly released a storage chest as a camp add-on.  I can kind of understand why it was kept out of the game initially if there are different instances of the camp that show up throughout the game (because the gripes about missing items would likely have been even greater in quantity than the gripes about not having a chest there at launch).

[ladydesire]

Sibelius1 wrote...

Gabochido wrote...

While I can't individually tell each person who believes this to be true that its wrong, I'll make an effort to clarify with as many as I can.

I'm one of the main gameplay programmers for DA:O and I was there: the stone prisoner and the WK chest were not plucked out of the game just to have DLC content. Its the other way around, you are able to have access to it thanks to the fact that the DLC system exists. Otherwise, we would just be focusing on the next big project and that content that couldn't make it into the game for some reason or other would just be cut and forgotten. 

You should also know that us "insiders" are not allowed to give wrong or misleading information, as that gets us into big trouble. If there's something we'd rather not talk about, then we just won't mention it so if we are talking about it, that means it has to be true (to the best of our knowledge).

Anyway, I'm sure I've bored everyone else by now, I think I'll just start private messaging people so that others don't have to read the same things over and over. 

An amateur modder was able to mod a storage chest into the party camp within days of the game's release.

Are we really expected to believe that Bioware programmers were unable to do this, and had to add it to DLC?

No; what he's saying is that the content in Warden's Keep was not originally part of the game, as some people continue to insist, even when told by people that should be trusted to know it. These are things that were developed after the main game story was locked for new content addition, as a supplement to the game.

[Ghandorian]

Tattercloak wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

An amateur modder was able to mod a storage chest into the party camp within days of the game's release.

Are we really expected to believe that Bioware programmers were unable to do this, and had to add it to DLC?

Ahem.  Actually, I believe it was one of the BioWare devs that kindly released a storage chest as a camp add-on.  I can kind of understand why it was kept out of the game initially if there are different instances of the camp that show up throughout the game (because the gripes about missing items would likely have been even greater in quantity than the gripes about not having a chest there at launch).

that and the idea to add it was made based on the handwringing of some media people during early marketing playthroughs. The main PC version was already sent out for compatibility testing and whatnot. But the naysayers prefer to cling to conspiracies over reason. You just cant reason with blind faith in being hard-done-by.

[VanDraegon]

Sibelius1 wrote...

An amateur modder was able to mod a storage chest into the party camp within days of the game's release.

Are we really expected to believe that Bioware programmers were unable to do this, and had to add it to DLC?

Incorrect.

[Oliver Sudden]

If the DLC focused more on adding gameplay rather than loot, I'd be much more likely to get it. DLC should get away from mostly being "exclusive" items, I think.

[Sibelius1]

Ghandorian wrote...

Tattercloak wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

An amateur modder was able to mod a storage chest into the party camp within days of the game's release.

Are we really expected to believe that Bioware programmers were unable to do this, and had to add it to DLC?

Ahem.  Actually, I believe it was one of the BioWare devs that kindly released a storage chest as a camp add-on.  I can kind of understand why it was kept out of the game initially if there are different instances of the camp that show up throughout the game (because the gripes about missing items would likely have been even greater in quantity than the gripes about not having a chest there at launch).

that and the idea to add it was made based on the handwringing of some media people during early marketing playthroughs. The main PC version was already sent out for compatibility testing and whatnot. But the naysayers prefer to cling to conspiracies over reason. You just cant reason with blind faith in being hard-done-by.

Ah apologies I didn't know it was a dev.

Why didn't they add the chest to the game pre-release, had they already pirnted the DVD's before they got the negative feedback? Understandable that way, but a pretty poor decision not to have storage regardless.

Is the camp storage available as a free download on Xbox 360 & the PS3?

Bit of a carrot to buy the keep if its not eh?

I

[dan107]

Gabochido wrote...
I do, however, feel that a general feedback we've been getting is based on the playtime length of the DLC, but very few people have really complained about the quality of the plot

That's because it was pretty good. Make the next DLC longer but less interesting, and you'll get your quality complaints.
 

Hence, I have been making sure to tell the DLC team that playing time is what matters most to a lot of people.

Length can't come at the expense of quality though. I don't think anybody is asking for a long and pointless dungeon crawl here. The fact of the matter is that players expect games that are both entertaining and provide a good amount of content for the money. And as you showed with DA, that's not an either or proposition. Thus you yourselves have set the expectations for future DLC. If your cost structure doesn't allow the DLC to even approach the same quality and content per dollar that the main game had, well that's a problem.

As a side note, I'm guessing that Bring Down the Sky for ME didn't make money? Personally, I thought it was quite good, and the 3-4 hours of gameplay that you got for $5 seemed quite fair. It would be nice to see similar things for DA.

Modifié par dan107, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:39 .

[Xiphias]

akridine wrote...

I wonder if the people complaining about the DLC have jobs or are using their pocket money to buy it? anyone with a job shouldn't be complaining about the loose change the DLC costs, I could proberbly buy all the DLC with the pennys on my coffee table, thinking about it i proberbly give more money to beggers each month than the DLC would cost me

So we should restrict gaming to middle age men with steady jobs and give the finger to everyone else?

Silly statements aside I do think the different ways to play the game are one of the major problems for DLC. Some people will only play on average 15-30 minutes per day and will be playing the game for months. For them the occasional fiver for a particularly interesting side-quest can be a perfectly reasonable offer. Others, including me, have finished the game and won't be playing up the main campaign again until a year or so has passed and are faced with the prospect of coming back to the game's price worth of DLC that's poor value for money yet will almost certainly be fleshing out the barest parts of the game and result in a notably better game than without it.

toronto13 wrote...

Quality of the released DLC Warden was on same level with the quality of the main game,it had a great story and you get to learn interesting things about people involved in it,nothing in this game is mindlessly put together and that is why this is the best game ever made.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with that at all. Warden's keep on it's own was reasonable enough but it was terribly implemented into the game. Unlike, say, the brecillian forest there were no stopping off points there for board quests and your actions don't reflect on the rest of the game at all:

SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER

The biggest issue is probably that if you spare Avernus, the grey warden mage, he isn't there for the final fight with the darkspawn hoard, even if he's too old to fight there's no reason why he shouldn't be on hand to plunge the blade in when the archdemon is defeated as well as give advice.

But the drydans and your chest should also have been transported to redcliffe on the eve of battle like sandal and his father.

Other quests involving warden's keep is a more tenuous connection to make but had this been part of the game it seems likely that Riordan would unlocked something extra there and as I mentioned above some of the smallest quests like The Unbound or the board quests might also have had notes or waypoints there.

END SPOILER
END SPOILER
END SPOILER
END SPOILER
END SPOILER


Personally I do think that Warden's Keep is overpriced, for a short, unintegrated 1 hour adventure with voice acting that was professional but second rate. I think £1 would have been more appropriate than the current £5 asking price. I'm not sure how much my opinion counts for as I doubt I'm the intended audience anyway as I won't be picking up the main campaign (and any mid-game commercial extras) for a year or so - by which time all the very small ones like Warden's keep seem likely to be bundled with the expansion pack.

[ComTrav]

Fredescu wrote...

If Bioware don't make a lot of money from DLC, I'd say this will be the last big budget PC focused RPG we'll ever see. Personally I would buy $5 DLC of Leliana reading her shopping list in the vain hope that more of this type of game gets made.

Worth bumping. Single-player RPGs are a genre that's in decline as a number of people try to get in on the MMO gravy train.

Personally, I would like a larger, well-integrated, area with a decent-sized internal story to the smaller-scale DLC content we're getting, and I would of course be willing to pay more for it. I think people who say they would rather have an 'expansion' mean ("DLC" is just a delivery mechanism, and can mean a large content chunk as much as much as a small one.) I understand Bioware to satisfy a variety of consumers, and I'm hopeful that this 'we have lots planned, but everything is always on the move simultaneously, so we can't comment' means that eventually we'll get a 'big and beefy' add-on.

I suspect, though, that if they announced a large 'expansion' so soon after release, a lot of people would complain. (I suppose it's inevitable people on the forums will complain...)