1317 Antworten in diesem Thema

[OriginalTibs]

Prince_Valiant wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

Or we could accept that we are not the authors and are therefore unqualified to dictate the artistry of the story.

This is no legitimate argument. Bioware (i.e. Casey Hudson) made promises and announcements for which I've bought the game. If I'm paying a lot of money for a thing, of course I have the right to criticize it.

The argument is present whether you think it a legitimate one or not.

You didn't buy the game, you only licensed your access to it. Neithr did you write the story. It isn't yours in any way to judge. Bioware is the authentic judge of its merit, not you.

Your most constructive recourse is to go write a better story, on whatever evaluative scale you deem better to be.

[Taleroth]

OriginalTibs wrote...

The argument is present whether you think it a legitimate one or not.

You didn't buy the game, you only licensed your access to it. Neithr did you write the story. It isn't yours in any way to judge. Bioware is the authentic judge of its merit, not you.

Your most constructive recourse is to go write a better story, on whatever evaluative scale you deem better to be.

There is no major philosophy or school of art appreciation that even begins to support your claim.

[Sashimi_taco]

OriginalTibs wrote...

Prince_Valiant wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

Or we could accept that we are not the authors and are therefore unqualified to dictate the artistry of the story.

This is no legitimate argument. Bioware (i.e. Casey Hudson) made promises and announcements for which I've bought the game. If I'm paying a lot of money for a thing, of course I have the right to criticize it.

The argument is present whether you think it a legitimate one or not.

You didn't buy the game, you only licensed your access to it. Neithr did you write the story. It isn't yours in any way to judge. Bioware is the authentic judge of its merit, not you.

Your most constructive recourse is to go write a better story, on whatever evaluative scale you deem better to be.

That is the most rediculous thing ever. So people are never allowed to be displeased with movies, book, television, art, or any other form of entertainment because we did not make it only PAID MOENY FOR IT!?

The simple fact is that bioware made a lot of promises about the endings, and they simply didn't live up them. As I am playing the game I am also noticing a lot of bugs that sometimes are hard to ignore when I am trying to emerse myself. I feel like this game needed more time for development. 

Also I love the dialouge, but I am not watching the characters talking instead of me choosing what the say. This is a HUGE let down. 

[OriginalTibs]

Your tastes reflect no more than your tastes. Your critique is not the work critiqued, and neither is it more significant.

[OriginalTibs]

Taleroth wrote...

And I want any potential unhappiness to be a consequence of the Reapers....

You can get that much plot in a greeting card.

[Groks]

The ending was just disappointingly sad and very one note  

[OriginalTibs]

For a tale to be complete, there are few more difficult tasks than crafting an ending.

No one wants a story they love to end, and no one is ever satisfied by a real ending. We invariably hunger for more if it is done right.

Question: Do these viscerally unsatisfactory endings hold greater potential for conceivable future conflict (massive?) than a happy ending would?

Bearbeitet von OriginalTibs, 06 März 2012 - 06:44 .

[Taleroth]

OriginalTibs wrote...

No one wants a story they love to end, and no one is every satisfied by a real ending.

Speak for yourself. I want everything to end. Zombie franchises are a real thing and they're terrible. Things drag on too long, they get convoluted, they lose sight of their original themes, derail characters, and just generally lose cohesion. These are all problems are risked as a story continues on overlong.

These are also problems with the ending of ME3. It's not so much an end to a story, as it's a bad ending. An ending should naturally follow from the beginning and middle. Not such a case here.

[goofyomnivore]

Citadel: The Return was horrible every step of the way. London was great however. I enjoyed the rest of the game quite a bit as well. I'd say the highlight was solving the Turian/Krogan problem. I was shocked how much I liked EDI. She was probably the most interesting to talk to. Liara's capsule conversation was well done too I thought.

The two new characters Steve and Samantha were favorites as well. Too bad for my maleShep Samantha is a lesbian .

[OriginalTibs]

<I misspoke>

Bearbeitet von OriginalTibs, 06 März 2012 - 07:18 .

[OriginalTibs]

Taleroth wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...

No one wants a story they love to end, and no one is every satisfied by a real ending.

Speak for yourself. I want everything to end. Zombie franchises are a real thing and they're terrible. Things drag on too long, they get convoluted, they lose sight of their original themes, derail characters, and just generally lose cohesion. These are all problems are risked as a story continues on overlong.

These are also problems with the ending of ME3. It's not so much an end to a story, as it's a bad ending. An ending should naturally follow from the beginning and middle. Not such a case here.

My point is that while two of the three found endings do put an end to Shep, they leave the balance of the ME universe available (and conflicted, hence ripe for plot). Purely speculative I admit. Perhaps I should not consider it even a hope, yet I find that I do.

If BioWare does well enough with SWTOR to wish for another MMO, then this franchise' environment could provide a good, well conflicted environment.

Evauate these endings good or bad, they are nevertheless endings that permit interesting potentials.

Whether Bioware will choose to exploit the option is unpredictable (unless denied possibility by the franchise owner).

But two of these endings at least leave it possible without carting too awfully much baggage along with it.

Bearbeitet von OriginalTibs, 06 März 2012 - 07:16 .

[Ieldra]

OriginalTibs wrote...
Bioware is the authentic judge of its merit, not you.

Whatever you think of the story - and I, btw, happen to think the story is great - this is bull****. You're saying only the creator of a work can judge its merit. But works of art are created for an audience - readers, players, viewers. If the target audience doesn't like your work, you've done something wrong.

I have no problems with the ending choices and the overall story at all. The consequences of the endings, that's the major problem. The galaxy f*cked with no choice about it, no way to get even a hint of a nicer personal fate of Shepard in the Synthesis, the relays blowing up in Control according to the Catalyst (but not according to the visuals). Then the very questionable fate of the Normandy. There are circumstances under which the scene works, but someone clearly didn't think enough about how this would be perceived.

They promised a satisfying ending to the story. An ending so bitter that it - unless you headcanon heavily - retroactively taints your fondest memories of five years of playing Mass Effect games is not satisfying. I like the choice you make about life in the galaxy. There is endless potential for debate about them and they're interesting on a philosophical level. But emotionally this is a kick in the quad. Not cool.
 

Bearbeitet von Ieldra2, 06 März 2012 - 07:52 .

[OriginalTibs]

Ieldra2 wrote...

OriginalTibs wrote...
Bioware is the authentic judge of its merit, not you.

Whatever you think of the story - and I, btw, happen to think the story is great - this is bull****. You're saying only the creator of a work can judge its merit. ...

Case in point: What you interpret me to say is necessarily skewed by whatever value you fill  the word 'merit' with.

My actual sentiment, once you get around to it, is that the individual reading the story, watching the story, appreciating (or not) the story is actually the creator of their iteration of the tale.

I write a story. Though my same words are read, you fill those words with your meanings and create your story within you. If I wrote it really well, and you read really well, I will be able to sway you into reading the story I wrote.

But if you don't read well there is nothing I can do to make you read it better.

You can judge and critique your reading of a story, but unless you are particularly adept at reading you cannot credibly say much about what was read, only how you read it.

If you convince me that you are an excellent reader, every bit as good a reader as I am a writer, then I would choose to try and understand the story you created around the words I wrote.

You read my words and interpreted them with your expectations. Your expectations however may not match well with the story I was relating.

So too with the Mass Effect endings. You don't know (nor do I) the context that these endings are pregnant with. Bioware may. The authors surely do.

Your and my critiques about the artistic product of other people is more revealing about you and me. The quality we find through someone else's artistic work, given it is well and thoughtfully crafted, is more likely to be all about who we are than it is about the artist.

I am asserting something about the nature of art that I think is true. You're affected. Art is an interior event.

This is a fact about subjective comprehension: It may not be immediately obvious.

Clarity is a second language.

Case 2: God. If I say that word I bet you dollars to donuts you got a different meaning than I had when I wrote it.

Bearbeitet von OriginalTibs, 06 März 2012 - 08:28 .

[XGrlGamerX]

I didn't mind the endings so much.

Yes, I wish there was more of a variety, but it was one of the first times in a Bioware game where I was really dumbfounded on what I should do. I spend 3 games getting to know and love my characters, and I really felt the weight of losing them, and the galaxy if I chose incorrectly.

I was somewhat confused when the Normandy crashes, like, are the ONLY people who survived the one's that come out of the ship? Or is it always Joker, EDI and your love interest? I'm not even sure who lived or died at the end because there were not particular cutscenes when it came to my party members.

As I've stated numerous times on the forum, I love pretty much everything till the Citidal (and I'm not talking about your choices). I just felt like there could have been a lot more sentimental and meaningful scenes between characters that was just left out.

Do we even get to see some of our party members die? Is there a Sheppard reaction shot, or is it just Cortez who dies (he did in my game).

Yea, just a lot of unanswered questions.

Bearbeitet von XGrlGamerX, 06 März 2012 - 09:14 .

[OriginalTibs]

Prince_Valiant wrote...

...
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

fyi: Although Dante did pass through the Inferno and Purgatorio beyond that terrible gate, he did find his Beatrice beyond it as well.

[Sashimi_taco]

XGrlGamerX wrote...

I didn't mind the endings so much.

Yes, I wish there was more of a variety, but it was one of the first times in a Bioware game where I was really dumbfounded on what I should do. I spend 3 games getting to know and love my characters, and I really felt the wait of losing them, and the galaxy if I chose incorrectly.

I was somewhat confused when the Normandy crashes, like, are the ONLY people who survived the one's that come out of the ship? Or is it always Joker, EDI and your love interest? I'm not even sure who lived or died at the end because there were not particular cutscenes when it came to my party members.

As I've stated numerous times on the forum, I love pretty much everything till the Citidal (and I'm not talking about your choices). I just felt like there could have been a lot more sentimental and meaningful scenes between characters that was just left out.

Do we even get to see some of our party members die? Is there a Sheppard reaction shot, or is it just Cortez who dies (he did in my game).

Yea, just a lot of unanswered questions.

This is what make me the most upset. They said there would be no questions but there are so many. WHere are they? Who survived? Will they get back t shepard if she lives? Are they stranded on that planet? What is going on?


I WANT ANSWERS!

[Sashimi_taco]

Prince_Valiant wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

This is what make me the most upset. They said there would be no questions but there are so many. WHere are they? Who survived? Will they get back t shepard if she lives? Are they stranded on that planet? What is going on?


I WANT ANSWERS!

This ending is more a cliffhanger than a closure. BioWare broke all their promises. No choices, no answers. They have not even the courage to make a statement for their former fans.

I don't understand. I DON'T UNDERSTAND! HOW IS THIS A CONCLUSION! IT IS ALL QUESTIONS!

[Taleroth]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

This is what make me the most upset. They said there would be no questions but there are so many. WHere are they? Who survived? Will they get back t shepard if she lives? Are they stranded on that planet? What is going on?


I WANT ANSWERS!

There's a certain point where you'll never get enough answers. It's literally impossible to give you every single detail. Hell, if the Normandy hadn't crashed, you'd probably be asking who eventually got married, what color they wore at the wedding, and what their childrens' names would be. What age did they retire? What rank did they end up with?

They crashed. They're stranded. If they survived, you see people. If they didn't you don't.

We got the crucial answers to the plot. We know what the Reapers are and why. If you want all the details about all the characters you care about and their futures, the only way to ever really get that is for them all to die.

Bearbeitet von Taleroth, 06 März 2012 - 09:36 .

[Tigerjunky]

Taleroth wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

This is what make me the most upset. They said there would be no questions but there are so many. WHere are they? Who survived? Will they get back t shepard if she lives? Are they stranded on that planet? What is going on?


I WANT ANSWERS!

There's a certain point where you'll never get enough answers. It's literally impossible to give you every single detail. Hell, if the Normandy hadn't crashed, you'd probably be asking who eventually got married, what color they wore at the wedding, and what their childrens' names would be. What age did they retire? What rank did they end up with?

They crashed. They're stranded. If they survived, you see people. If they didn't you don't.

We got the crucial answers to the plot. We know what the Reapers are and why. If you want all the details about all the characters you care about and their futures, the only way to ever really get that is for them all to die.

Did your crew starve to death? Are they stranded forever? Do they inbreed and crearte retarded blue children? How about those answeres? 

[Taleroth]

Tigerjunky wrote...


Did your crew starve to death? Are they stranded forever? Do they inbreed and crearte retarded blue children? How about those answeres? 

They clearly didn't starve to death, given the epilogue. Nor did they leave all too soon.

But see, you're asking about their eventual children.

I would agree if anyone said it was simply unsatisfactory. If it was stupid. If it was poorly thought out. But it's not a cliffhanger. It's not "more questions than answers." It's just stupid. The core questions of the series are answered. The war is over. The characters' arcs are wrapped up, albeit in a very ugly bow. The fine details are lacked, but the fine details of the characters will always lack in many regards.

Bearbeitet von Taleroth, 06 März 2012 - 09:50 .

[XGrlGamerX]

I really don't feel like the main questions were answered.

1. Who and what is the crucible? Why does it take shape as a little boy?

2. What was the point of the dream sequences?

3. This is a BIOWARE game, if any of my team died, I WANT to know about it. Dialogue, cutscene, SOMETHING!

Even a little something like a dialogue bubble, like at the end of Dragon Age, would be substantial.

[Zehtuka]

After all these years we are betrayed at the very end, I guess it fits with the story eh?