47 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

I will point out that there was zero evidence outside of Duncan's word to prove that the Darkspawn at Ostagar was a blight, and not just a darkspawn incursion.

I will also point out that Ostagar was ultimately pointless. The Archdemon was still underground at this point, and as long as the Archdemon lives, the Darkspawn are pretty much unstoppable. Since the Archdemon had not shown himself, Cailan basically threw his life away and the lives of the Grey Wardens who died protecting him.


One could argue that in this case Loghain actually made a genius move to abandon Cailan. A pointless battle led by a guy who wanted to invite the mortal enemies of Ferelden SIMPLY TO MAKE IT LOOK COOL. Because as the game proves Orlais was not needed. The people of Ferelden had what it took to conquer the Blight on their own, as long as they were united. Which was interestingly Loghain's point all along.

Very amusing imho.

That said Loghain is the guy who does the talking so he is the villain. I disliked him more than the Archdemon, even though the Archdemon was the whole point of the game.

I'm not sure if that was intended or not but it's what happened.

Modifié par Vicious, 26 novembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

He is the main villain. So they can't let you kill him right at the start of the game.

Loghain is not the main villain.  I agree with the sentiment, but he really isn't the serious threat.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Vicious wrote...

I will point out that there was zero evidence outside of Duncan's word to prove that the Darkspawn at Ostagar was a blight, and not just a darkspawn incursion.

The word of every Grey Warden should be enough to tell people that it is a Blight.  Doesn't mean it made no sense for it to be disbelieved, but when the people whose primary mission in life is to kill darkspawn tell you that the darkspawn have gained a leader, you should give them a bit of trust.

[Herr Uhl]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

He is the main villain. So they can't let you kill him right at the start of the game.

Loghain is not the main villain.  I agree with the sentiment, but he really isn't the serious threat.

But a serious threat enabler. Kind of like a Saren light.

[SeanMurphy2]

Majspuffen wrote...

he had a good reason for what he did?
Who knows what would've happened, had he not fled the battle. The king
might've died anyway... but how about the other actions? Poisoning
Eamon, blame HIS actions on the wardens, slavery etc...? I can't
beileve people actually want him in their party.

I think the initial reason to abandon the King may be justified if he feels the battle is lost.

But he is written as a clear cut villain after Ostager. He ignores the defence of Southern Ferelden to fight a civil war, his schemes almost cause the destruction of Calenhad and Redcliffe, he uses slavery, assassination and kidnapping.

I was expecting them to go in a different direction with his character after Ostager.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 26 novembre 2009 - 08:52 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I will point out that there was zero evidence outside of Duncan's word to prove that the Darkspawn at Ostagar was a blight, and not just a darkspawn incursion.

The word of every Grey Warden should be enough to tell people that it is a Blight.  Doesn't mean it made no sense for it to be disbelieved, but when the people whose primary mission in life is to kill darkspawn tell you that the darkspawn have gained a leader, you should give them a bit of trust.

Well, not even Cailan (GW fanboy #1) believes that it is serious. There has been 400 years since the last blight, that is a long time for the grey wardens to pick their belly buttons and going off dying in the deep roads. Or overthrowing governments (see wardens keep). They are more a legend than fact to the common man at that point. Darkspawn are a dwarven problem to them.

[gotthammer]

Couldar wrote...

So basically replace Loghain with yourself?...

Why not?
I mean, it would have been nice to HAVE such an option (esp. if you want to play a truly 'evil' character).

[Rugaru]

Ok hate to do this again in yet another thread but...Loghain drew up the battle plans, Loghains men were supposed to be guarding the tower (you were just supposed to make sure the tower was lit), all the other backstabbing crap that went on BEFORE Ostagar. The battle plans most likely would have been successful it was a hammer and anvil battle plan Loghain had most of the army behind him to flank but retreated.



So tell me again how Loghain isn't a traitorous ******?

[Herr Uhl]

gotthammer wrote...

Couldar wrote...

So basically replace Loghain with yourself?...

Why not?
I mean, it would have been nice to HAVE such an option (esp. if you want to play a truly 'evil' character).

The become king option does that. Can at least. But I don't think that Loghain is prone to incest though, so there is a difference.

[SeanMurphy2]

Couldar wrote...

Ok hate to do this again in yet another thread but...Loghain drew up the battle plans, Loghains men were supposed to be guarding the tower (you were just supposed to make sure the tower was lit), all the other backstabbing crap that went on BEFORE Ostagar. The battle plans most likely would have been successful it was a hammer and anvil battle plan Loghain had most of the army behind him to flank but retreated.

So tell me again how Loghain isn't a traitorous ******?

I agree. In the game he is presented as a scheming ruthless villain. I just expected him to be presented in a more ambivalent way.

I would like to meet him after Ostager. And for him to convince me that the battle was lost and there was no point sacrificing the whole army to save the King. Or that there really is a plot by Orlesians to retake Ferelden whilst Cailan is distracted by the Blight. Or that he will have to do some ruthless things to restore order in the Kingdom. Or he has some brilliant plan to handle the Darkspawn.

[Rugaru]

Well to me "saving the king" isn't really a big point, if the king died in the fight that wouldn't be an issue IF Loghain hadn't given up the field. From the video and from having a strong knowledge of battle tactics, the plan was a good one and one that would have been successful granted no archdemon so it would have only just killed a ton of darkspawn. However, from what I saw Loghain's whole plan was just to kill the grey wardens (who were the only non-fereldens at the battle) and the king.



In my view had Loghain charged the flank as per the plan, the darkspawn would have been destroyed, killing Cailen in all that would have been fairly simple. If that had been played out I might have fallen for Loghain's bit, if only until I found out about the stuff he did before the battle to every one else.

[Vilegrim]

Majspuffen wrote...

he had a good reason for what he did? Who knows what would've happened, had he not fled the battle. The king might've died anyway... but how about the other actions? Poisoning Eamon, blame HIS actions on the wardens, slavery etc...? I can't beileve people actually want him in their party.

The army would have been destroyed, if only because the Archdemon would have shown itself sooner, in fact massive blunder on it's part that it didn't imho.  Poisoning Eamon gets a rival general out of the way, one that would have stood and died taking more precious troops with him.  Blaming the wardens, well as far as Loghian knows the only living warden are Orlaieans, so keeping them out of the picture makes sense, from the 'keep the chevaliers out of Ferelden' standpoint, the slavery however was beyond the pale.  Recruiting the Alienage elves to do the jobs the soilders couldn't would have made more sense, (farming, manufacture, goods transport etc, all things that the militia army had left behind to take up arms basically)

[soteria]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Serogon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I thought BioWare made a mistake in that section. You have one companion suggest going to Redcliffe (which is a horrible place to go before you've leveled) and another suggest just going to Loghian (which you can't do at all.)

How is Redcliffe a horrible place to go until you've leveled? I went there first on my first playthrough and it went fine.

You're also playing the XBox 360 version that reduces the difficulty of combat and has fewer people on the screen at the same time. If you don't have an AOE damage spell (and you can't unless you play a mage) or a healing spell (and you can't unless you play a mage), then Redcliffe village is incredably difficult for a first stop.

As one of the devs said, "Your first mistake was listening to Alistiar."

/shrug.  It is a difficult fight, but I went there on my first character and won the battle on my first attempt.  Most of my party was down before the end, but I did it.  At that level anywhere you go can be frustrating.  I remember my warrior had to replay one solo fight with an ogre 5-6 times before I could kill him, and when I did, it was just a lucky set of circumstances.  There's really nothing a warrior can do to stop an ogre from ramming him three times in a row...

Ironically, I had more trouble with Redcliffe on my second playthrough, when I went there after the circle tower.

[gotthammer]

Herr Uhl wrote...

gotthammer wrote...

Couldar wrote...

So basically replace Loghain with yourself?...

Why not?
I mean, it would have been nice to HAVE such an option (esp. if you want to play a truly 'evil' character).

The become king option does that. Can at least. But I don't think that Loghain is prone to incest though, so there is a difference.

But the existing option isn't really 'nasty' or 'evil' enough.
I mean wouldn't killing 'everyone' (Loghain, the Queen, some of the nobles, perhaps including Arl Eamon) be more...err...'fun'? (or more chaotic, at least. Embrace the dark side and all that...)

[Tennmuerti]

I don't know why all the debate, I thought it was pretty clear when I was told: "Dude ... he has an ARMY ... we don't."



Plus you know all the business with wanting to kill any grey warden left alive. Just a hunch.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Tennmuerti wrote...

I don't know why all the debate, I thought it was pretty clear when I was told: "Dude ... he has an ARMY ... we don't."

Plus you know all the business with wanting to kill any grey warden left alive. Just a hunch.

Armies don't protect people from being assassinated.  And the thing with hunting down Grey Wardens doesn't seem to have much play with anyone.  Even the lieutenant on the city watch doesn't much care that you are one.

[Tennmuerti]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Tennmuerti wrote...

I don't know why all the debate, I thought it was pretty clear when I was told: "Dude ... he has an ARMY ... we don't."

Plus you know all the business with wanting to kill any grey warden left alive. Just a hunch.

Armies don't protect people from being assassinated.  And the thing with hunting down Grey Wardens doesn't seem to have much play with anyone.  Even the lieutenant on the city watch doesn't much care that you are one.

Good point.
I just dont think you could pull it off at that point in your career.

To be more serious I believe this is simply a time/resource limitation of any crpg, you simply cannot predict and provide for all the options that players would want to try and take. Video game versus DM limitation. I also by the way agree with people that are saying that it would have been nice to try it.
/shrug
Good mod material

[Rugaru]

Tennmuerti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Tennmuerti wrote...

I don't know why all the debate, I thought it was pretty clear when I was told: "Dude ... he has an ARMY ... we don't."

Plus you know all the business with wanting to kill any grey warden left alive. Just a hunch.

Armies don't protect people from being assassinated.  And the thing with hunting down Grey Wardens doesn't seem to have much play with anyone.  Even the lieutenant on the city watch doesn't much care that you are one.

Good point.
I just dont think you could pull it off at that point in your career.

To be more serious I believe this is simply a time/resource limitation of any crpg, you simply cannot predict and provide for all the options that players would want to try and take. Video game versus DM limitation. I also by the way agree with people that are saying that it would have been nice to try it.
/shrug
Good mod material

At that point in the game you are nowhere near experienced enough to "sneak" through an army or assassinate Loghain...would be kind of silly to try...

[Loc'n'lol]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You're also playing the XBox 360 version that reduces the difficulty of combat and has fewer people on the screen at the same time. If you don't have an AOE damage spell (and you can't unless you play a mage) or a healing spell (and you can't unless you play a mage), then Redcliffe village is incredably difficult for a first stop.

Honestly, I recently replayed it. First stop after Lothering, normal (PC) difficulty, no mages, no cheese (pulling towards the knights, etc), and won on first try and even managed to have survivors among the militia (alas poor Murdock). Cautious application of taunt and shield bash saved many lives, and I wasn't trying too hard.

I think this is one of those encounters that actually get harder when you take on them later in the game.

Same deal with the Denerim backalleys, did them around level 10 and it was a breeze compared to what it can be a higher levels. (No scattershot spam helps a lot, for one thing)

[Ulicus]

Wait, the 360 version reduces difficulty?



Boo.



I remember thinking that defending Redcliffe village was pretty easy (on nightmare, and with it as my first stop) but I had made sure to prepare the town properly beforehand. Redcliffe castle, however, was much more challenging a place....

[Few87]

Yes, i also thought it was a shame the way you actually have no choice here. I do understand though that it would have been hard to implement this, but still it would have been good to actually be able to do that.

[wlderotter]

pinzig wrote...

When you first get to Lothering, Morrigan suggests going to pop Loghain and THEN gathering the troops to fight the archdemon... so why can't we go with her idea? why must the cool spots in denerim be blocked off, why NOT just go in and axe that creep and move on?

don't know if this was mentioned - but if you axe him first then he doesn't send a certain assassin after you, said assassin is useful in certain places - especially if you are evil enough to put off Liliana.

Modifié par wlderotter, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[apantoliani]

My first toon was a rogue, I have to admit, the idea of leaving everyone in camp outside Denerim while I took care of some business in town sounded rather appealing.



1. Loghain, knife in the back, check.

2. Howe, knife in the throat, check.



Come out, "HAY GUYS, WE'RE GOOD."