144 réponses à ce sujet

[red8x]

Forumtroll wrote...

Morrigan expresses regret for leaving you if you romanced her as a male character. She really isn't all that charming.

Point taken 

rumination888 wrote...

I think people choose what society deems as the "good" choice in Dragon Age because they want to feel good about themselves. Who doesn't want to feel good about themselves?  Is it evil to want to feel good about yourself?

I would deem feeling good about yourself at the expense of others as evil. 

Modifié par red8x, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:36 .

[MassEffect762]

Evil in the sense that she was solely created to sucker all you good folks into demanding answers and eventually breaking out your wallets to find out.



I personally think she's an idiot or a retard if she can't mold the good and bad in life and take it at face value. This we all know was spawned from bad/biased parenting thus leaving her doomed to failure in reaching her ultimate potential.(knowing one self)

[marshalleck]

rumination888 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

He's talking about the D&D definition of evil.

Think of the good-evil scale like this:

good ------- evil
society ----- self

Theres a lot of people that would argue that communism is "evil".

I think people choose what society deems as the "good" choice in Dragon Age because they want to feel good about themselves. Who doesn't want to feel good about themselves?  Is it evil to want to feel good about yourself?

Meh. The D&D scale thing has been argued for many years. As I said before, it's a specific metric agreed upon so people can have a meaningful discussion.

Good in the D&D sense is behavior that benefits others more than yourself; selflessness. Evil being those behaviors that benefit yourself at the expense of others; selfishness.

It's not perfect, but it's a framework that allows people to talk about 'good' and 'evil' without constantly having to quantify every single statement.

In the D&D sense, 'neutral evil' fits Morrigan very well. Not lawful or chaotic, because she doesn't really care much for law and order but doesn't really go out of her way to spread chaos and disorder either. Evil because she is primarily committed to herself and her own goals and will not hesitate to use people to those ends.

This still does not make her maniacally evil, which in the D&D scale tends to fall under chaotic evil, aka chaotic stupid--killing and causing problems for no other reason than because they can.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:38 .

[X ROMAN VI X]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Evil in the sense that she was solely created to sucker all you good folks into demanding answers and eventually breaking out your wallets to find out.

I personally think she's an idiot or a retard if she can't mold the good and bad in life and take it at face value. This we all know was spawned from bad/biased parenting thus leaving her doomed to failure in reaching her ultimate potential.(knowing one self)

That may be your ultimate goal/potential, but it may not be hers. She may wish to become the most powerful person in Thedas by raising an Old God.

[MassEffect762]

You can't become the best without knowing who you truly are, she is doomed.

[X ROMAN VI X]

MassEffect762 wrote...

You can't become the best without knowing who you truly are, she is doomed.

I disagree, I do not believe that a person cannot know themselves. In real life, I recognize myself as a mildly selfish, arrogant person. The people I know say that they are something better then what I believe that believe that they are.

Perhaps I only believe that because I looked at everything from a 3rd person perspective, haha. :innocent:

Also, many people who I think are/were too full of themselves to see what they are/were actually like have achieved greatness. Such as Cicero, Caesar, Cato the Younger, etc.

Modifié par X ROMAN VI X, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[HoLyEmperor]

marshalleck wrote...
It's not perfect, but it's a framework that allows people to talk about 'good' and 'evil' without constantly having to quantify every single statement.

Exactly.  I provided an "objective" standard and supported my position.

[MassEffect762]

We know morrigan doesn't know herself, just listen to her choke when you bring up love.



The whole "regret/sadness" bit with the ring ending, she is fooling herself. That's not what brings out the best in people.

[archonambroseus]

X ROMAN VI X wrote...

Psychopathy could be used to describe a person who simply hides their feelings...

No.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Psychopathy

Volourn wrote...

"Loghain isn't evil either, just derranged. He genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing."

No, he most certainly is evil.

Maybe if you're Immanuel Kant.  And that's not a compliment, belive me.



*snark off*

Anyways, to me, this quotation from Robert Heinlein pretty much sums it up: "Sin lies only in hurting onthers unnecessarily.  All other 'sins' are invented nonsense.  (Hurting yourself isn't sinful, just stupid.)"

So some actions (like selling off the elves) could be described as despicable or heinous, but not quite evil since more money = more dead darkspawn.  Evil would be torturing for self gratification.  Torturing people for profit is pretty f***ing disgusting, but not quite evil.  Not quite by a hair.

Modifié par archonambroseus, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:54 .

[rumination888]

red8x wrote...

I would deem feeling good about yourself at the expense of others as evil. 

So then why do you think Morrigan is evil?
Shes not the one that attacked Redcliffe.
She's not the one that called for the Rite of Anullment on the Circle of Magi.
She isn't the one that rounded up the slaves in Denerim, nor is she the one that will benefit from their deaths.

Modifié par rumination888, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:51 .

[X ROMAN VI X]

archonambroseus wrote...

X ROMAN VI X wrote...

Psychopathy could be used to describe a person who simply hides their feelings...

No.  http://en.wikipedia....iki/Psychopathy

I don't mean that they are accused of being a psychopath because they hide their feelings, but because of how they act because of that. I was diagnosed with several various disorders before the psychologists realized I was just extremely introverted. It was understandable that they do that as well, they made more money that way.

MassEffect762 wrote...

We know morrigan doesn't know herself, just listen to her choke when you bring up love.

The whole "regret/sadness" bit with the ring ending, she is fooling herself. That's not what brings out the best in people.

Morrigan as a character probably wasn't supposed to understand her emotions and her Humanity entirely, it goes with the animal that she partly is due to her shapeshifting as well as her being raised in the Wilds.

Modifié par X ROMAN VI X, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:54 .

[MassEffect762]

Well in any case you know what they say about karma, she'll get hers.

[HoLyEmperor]

rumination888 wrote...
She's not the one that called for the Rite of Anullment on the Circle of Magi.
She isn't the one that rounded up the slaves in Denerim, nor is she the one that will benefit from their deaths.

Actually, she wants you to wipe out the Circle mages, just not for the same reasons the Rite of Annulment was called for.  And she doesn't mind if you let the Tevinter slaver go off with the slaves in Denerim (or if he kills them to give you +1 Con). 

[KalosCast]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Loghain isn't evil either, just derranged. He genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing.

Nobody outside of comic book villains and snarky high-schoolers honestly believe they are doing evil for the sake of evil, the fact that history's greatest villains were figures who were convinced that they were taking the proper course of action is what makes them so compelling.

[marshalleck]

X ROMAN VI X wrote...

Morrigan as a character probably wasn't supposed to understand her emotions and her Humanity entirely, it goes with the animal that she partly is due to her shapeshifting as well as her being raised in the Wilds.

Her emotional immaturity probably has more to do with being raised in near isolation than anything. If you ask her about shapeshifting, she knows she's a person and doesn't quite see things the same way an animal does--though she does have a broader range of experiencing the natural world since she can fly as a bird, or have the heightened senses of a wolf, etc.

She simply lacks the oversocialization of people who are raised in civilized and densely populated areas.

[X ROMAN VI X]

KalosCast wrote...

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Loghain isn't evil either, just derranged. He genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing.

Nobody outside of comic book villains and snarky high-schoolers honestly believe they are doing evil for the sake of evil, the fact that history's greatest villains were figures who were convinced that they were taking the proper course of action is what makes them so compelling.

Indeed, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Joseph Stalin, Osama Bin Laden, all motivated for their desire to do the best thing for their people.

[archonambroseus]

X ROMAN VI X wrote...
I don't mean that they are accused of being a psychopath because they hide their feelings, but because of how they act because of that. I was diagnosed with several various disorders before the psychologists realized I was just extremely introverted. It was understandable that they do that as well, they made more money that way.

I don't think you know what the psychological disorder known as psychopathy means.  It is, to quote the article:

...a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy.  Robert Hare, a researcher in the field describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse."  What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony.

I see where you're coming from, but if someone sees "introvert" and diagnoses... that, they should be the ones getting examined.

Modifié par archonambroseus, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:01 .

[PatT2]

We aren't even certain what Morrigan's motives are. Remember the very beginning when her mother said the blight was a bigger danger to everyone than, well, just about anything else?



Is/was morrigan really against her mother? Or......

Is/was Morrigan and her mother really in "cahoots" with each other?

Do they have a plan (obviously?)

Do we ever really know what that plan is?

So it's been about her mother surviving all along?



The old gods were dragons BEFORE the taint. The Archdemons become tainted. Perhaps they are trying to save an old god from the taint by using us? Which could be their real reason for saving us in the first place from that tower?



I think there's more going on here than meets the eye.



Is she evil? I don' t know. This player can't really see more than an occasional crack beyond her facade. When I do... (the golden mirror, etc.), or mentioning a mother's love... and what you see becomes pitiable rather than evil.



our players are just pawns in a bigger field. One we aren't aware of.



As for defining evil. The opposite of love, some people believe, is hate, right? But no...it's apathy. Consider the Hitlers of the world. Would they have succeeded if EVERYONE who just went along, refused? Not a chance. That is a lesson history repeats every century or so, but we refuse to learn. We are all sitting around waiting for someone else to put their arse on the line...because ...well....why? Isn't that the exact same question the storyteller at the Elven forest asks the human? Which is worse? Being the one who conquered and enslaved us? Or the one who sat by and did nothing to stop it?



Now, again, what is evil?

[Axterix]

I'm inclined to think of her as leaning toward evil.



Most of the time, her motivations are self centered. When the actions aren't, they typically involve freeing something from a cage of some sort, which is about the closest she gets to being good, though really more of a neutral action. It isn't what is inside that matters, but rather a rejection of stopping something from seeking or using its full power.



Ultimately, whether she is truly evil in my view depends mostly on how much like Flemeth she becomes. Will she lure men in, use them, then kill them? Possibly not, if you romanced her. Will she extend her life like Flemeth did, by raising a daughter and then possessing that body?



To that, I'd say, yeah, she will hurt others to gain personal power. And that puts her on the evil side of things.

[rumination888]

HoLyEmperor wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
She's not the one that called for the Rite of Anullment on the Circle of Magi.
She isn't the one that rounded up the slaves in Denerim, nor is she the one that will benefit from their deaths.

Actually, she wants you to wipe out the Circle mages, just not for the same reasons the Rite of Annulment was called for.  And she doesn't mind if you let the Tevinter slaver go off with the slaves in Denerim (or if he kills them to give you +1 Con). 

Thats not what I remember. I remember her telling me they're better off being wiped out by the Rite of Annulment. Thats a bit different than saying "I want you to kill these mages."(if she cares about you enough, she reconsiders her words without losing approval if you persuade her)
Wynne is, infact, the one that draws first if you agree with Morrigan.

She's not self-righteous enough to mind you letting the slavers go.
...unless you want to add that being self-righteous is a prerequisite to being "good"?

[X ROMAN VI X]

The opposite of love is fear. All emotions are centered around either love or fear and their subordinates.



But in the storyteller's question, I must side with being one of those who sit by and do nothing. They are not guilty of anything because fear gripped them, or because the benefits of atrocities suits them well. Besides, the majority of ****-era Germans I have met say they did not know Jews were being slaughtered as they do now, they did however know that they were being taken away and thrown into Ghettos.

[HoLyEmperor]

rumination888 wrote...


Thats not what I remember. I remember her telling me they're better off being wiped out by the Rite of Annulment. Thats a bit different than saying "I want you to kill these mages."(if she cares about you enough, she reconsiders her words without losing approval if you persuade her)
Wynne is, infact, the one that draws first if you agree with Morrigan.

Do you honestly see a functional difference between:

A.  Best if we kill them all, and
B.  Best if we let the Templars kill them all?

Morrigan IS evil by D&D standards, by Ferelden's standards, by Wynne's standards, by Leliana's standards, by Alistair's standards, and hell, probably even by Loghain's standards (at least by how he perceives his standards).  We don't know what her (and Flemeth's) plan will end up causing, or whether they have an altruistic or selfish motive.  That does not change who Morrigan is, though.

[1Parmenides]

Any human's essence is not pure evil per se. In that sense she is not evil. But does she do evil things? Sure. Infact, all your companions can do evil things... well, maybe not Dog. So, in another sense everyone is evil to some degree.

[red8x]

rumination888 wrote...

red8x wrote...

I would deem feeling good about yourself at the expense of others as evil. 

So then why do you think Morrigan is evil?
Shes not the one that attacked Redcliffe.
She's not the one that called for the Rite of Anullment on the Circle of Magi.
She isn't the one that rounded up the slaves in Denerim, nor is she the one that will benefit from their deaths.

She is evil because if your PC goes down the path of evil she sticks with you and should you ever pause to help someone her approval rating goes down.

As to the other examples:

Connor and his desire demon are responsible for Redcliffe.  Is the kid evil?  Potentially.  Because of his age I would just say he is just really stupid.

Greigor requests the Rite of Annulment which is like calling  a tactical strike on a terrorist cell.  Evil in the sense that innocents would be caught up in it.

The rounding up of slaves in Denerim was all Loghain.

I don't hold Morrigan responsible for third party acts.

[marshalleck]

1Parmenides wrote...

Any human's essence is not pure evil per se.

I used to think this. Then Jeffrey Dahmer happened, and I find myself questioning it. There are some evil ****s out there.