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[rumination888]

HoLyEmperor wrote...

rumination888 wrote...


Thats not what I remember. I remember her telling me they're better off being wiped out by the Rite of Annulment. Thats a bit different than saying "I want you to kill these mages."(if she cares about you enough, she reconsiders her words without losing approval if you persuade her)
Wynne is, infact, the one that draws first if you agree with Morrigan.

Do you honestly see a functional difference between:

A.  Best if we kill them all, and
B.  Best if we let the Templars kill them all?

Morrigan IS evil by D&D standards, by Ferelden's standards, by Wynne's standards, by Leliana's standards, by Alistair's standards, and hell, probably even by Loghain's standards (at least by how he perceives his standards).  We don't know what her (and Flemeth's) plan will end up causing, or whether they have an altruistic or selfish motive.  That does not change who Morrigan is, though.

Is there a functional difference between someone murdering another in self-defense vs. murdering another because they hate them? No.
But our society will say one is clearly "evil".

[marshalleck]

rumination888 wrote...

Is there a functional difference between someone murdering another in self-defense vs. murdering another because they hate them? No.
But our society will say one is clearly "evil".

Probably not the best example, since in a self-defense case violence or the threat of violence is typically initiated aginst you first?

[Drunkencelt]

Morrigan is far from evil. I would be one evil **** if I went through what she did. Infact,



Does she want a god child to eat like her mom? Does she want a knew start for the old god apart from the taint? Will the sequel see you hunting her down or protecting her/kid from darkspawn, cultist, chantry ect?



I think Morrigan is one of the truly interesting characters and highly misunderstood. She is the only one that is not completely transparant.

[Drunkencelt]

MassEffect762 wrote...

You can't become the best without knowing who you truly are, she is doomed.

Did you play the same game I did? Did you even talk to Morrigan or romance her?

Lelaine is the one who is confused. Hey I am a bard/spy/murderer but a self righteous/goody two shoes at the same time.

[archonambroseus]

Drunkencelt wrote...

Lelaine is the one who is confused. Hey I am a bard/spy/murderer but a self righteous/goody two shoes at the same time.

Until you talk to her and she admits that while she does believe in the Maker and the Chantry she really hated being there and just used it to escape her persuers and avoid drawing attention.

[Drunkencelt]

archonambroseus wrote...

X ROMAN VI X wrote...
I don't mean that they are accused of being a psychopath because they hide their feelings, but because of how they act because of that. I was diagnosed with several various disorders before the psychologists realized I was just extremely introverted. It was understandable that they do that as well, they made more money that way.

I don't think you know what the psychological disorder known as psychopathy means.  It is, to quote the article:

...a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy.  Robert Hare, a researcher in the field describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse."  What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony.

I see where you're coming from, but if someone sees "introvert" and diagnoses... that, they should be the ones getting examined.

For 75% of that, I could swear you were describing most women.

[oYOSSARIANo]

No she is not evil. Remember she was brought up by a witch in the wilds. The witch (Flemeth) would tell her stories that terrified her, and told her what she did with the men she brought to the hut, have sex with them then kill them. Flemeth would tell Morrigan that was expected of her when she grew up. Morrigan herself says no young girl should hear such blood curdling tales and her childhood could never be described as happy..



Morrigan is not evil or a sociopath just a product of her childhood. No contact with humans growing up will not give you a sense of compassion or empathy. She only really knew animals as she grew up and watched them. Animals do not show compassion, sympathy or empathy, nature is survival of the fittest, you do what you must do to survive.



Why would Morrigan then show the sort of traits that we say differentiate us from the animals when after all she had grown up with the animals not humans. Remember also that the human society she was told about hated what she was and would send the Templars to kill her if they could. Human society was only interested in killing her as a apostate.



If Morrigan had not grown up in the wilds with Flemeth as her mother, she would not be the cold person she is. It's a shame Bioware did not take Morrigan's inability to love a bit deeper through dialogue in game, but I think we have not seen the last of her, either in a sequel or an expansion. I can't see Bioware not telling us the story of the demon/old god/child, it's too good not to, and Morrigan is far too interesting to just be allowed to wonder west over the Frostback mountains to Orlais.

[red8x]

Is Morrigan even human?



There are some cryptic comments when you ask her if Flemeth is her mother and she says something like "if you mean whether she raised me..." Also, Flemeth says something along the lines that she "made" Flemeth so she could go with you. I distinctly remember the word "made" and thought it odd in the sentence structure because the usual phrasing should have been "I asked/forced Morrigan.." and not "she was made" ... Sorry, I don't remember the exact quote but it left me with a feeling that there was just something strange about how Morrigan came to be in the world.

[oYOSSARIANo]

Double post,  Bioware's forums unlike their games sucks.

Modifié par oYOSSARIANo, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:09 .

[keesio74]

As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think Morrigan is evil. She doesn't get a thrill out of hurting people (which is true evil IMHO). But she is selfish (as she stated to the PC and Leliana) and looking to further her own gain. She is also very flawed and hurt and I believe her feelings of love/friendship she can display is honest.



In D&D terms she is Chaotic Neutral with the hope of one day being redeemed to Chaotic Good.



She also reminds me of a mix of Kitiara/Raistlin of the Dragonlance books. They both viewed love as a weakness that should be avoided and like Morrigan struggled with dealing with that affection (Raistlin with his brother and somewhat Crysania while Kitiara with Tanis and Dalamar). And of course they were all damaged emotionally and thirsted for power.



Then again both Kitiara and Raistlin were considered Evil characters so perhaps I defeated my own argument?

[Drunkencelt]

As for the Circle of Magi. If you look at it from her back ground, they are no worse than sheep who live their lives in slavery to the Chantry. I would consider death a better option than that any day. Is she evil because they thinks we shouldn't help people who can't help themselves?



A darkspawn threat is the main danger, and certain party members get upset when we deviate to help people. If you really think about it, they are right. Why risk the nation for the few?

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

In my opinion, it really does depend on your personal take on what can be considered good and evil.
Since this isn't D&D however and more of a mature fantasy setting I'm inclined to beleive that not everyone in DA can be painted black and white more like shades of grey. I would probably compare her to the likes of Abigail from the Witcher(she's done some bad things like making and selling poison but she's also done some nice things like taking in Alvin and helping Geralt).

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

In my opinion, it really does depend on your personal take on what can be considered good and evil.
Since this isn't D&D however and more of a mature fantasy setting I'm inclined to beleive that not everyone in DA can be painted black and white more like shades of grey. I would probably compare her to the likes of Abigail from the Witcher(she's done some bad things like making and selling poison but she's also done some nice things like taking in Alvin and helping Geralt).

[Drunkencelt]

archonambroseus wrote...

Drunkencelt wrote...

Lelaine is the one who is confused. Hey I am a bard/spy/murderer but a self righteous/goody two shoes at the same time.

Until you talk to her and she admits that while she does believe in the Maker and the Chantry she really hated being there and just used it to escape her persuers and avoid drawing attention.

Actualy, the I am confused and is that who I am conversation is after her sidequest is completed in Denerim. This takes place after the conversations you refer too.

Lelaine just comes off as poorly written too me. All her protests and values are a direct contradiction to her whole life. She did worse things in Orlais then Morrigan ever did growing up. Some reason we aren't discussing the nature of her character beacuse she has flowers and bows in her hair. People fall in love with that sappy lovey dovey stuff.

Morrigan is the one who grows and matures as a direct result of your relationship together. She expresses regret, tries to warn you of the harm of your relationship, and is distraught that you two could even become that close. These are all natural human emotions everyone feels. Every single man who swears they never get married goes through that range of emotions.

[rumination888]

red8x wrote...

She is evil because if your PC goes down the path of evil she sticks with you and should you ever pause to help someone her approval rating goes down.

As to the other examples:

Connor and his desire demon are responsible for Redcliffe.  Is the kid evil?  Potentially.  Because of his age I would just say he is just really stupid.

Greigor requests the Rite of Annulment which is like calling  a tactical strike on a terrorist cell.  Evil in the sense that innocents would be caught up in it.

The rounding up of slaves in Denerim was all Loghain.

I don't hold Morrigan responsible for third party acts.

I don't remember many instances where her approval goes down for helping someone.
So I always assumed people were just using hyperbole.

I'll list what I can remember:

1.) Defending Redcliffe
2.) Sending Morrigan to save Conner's life
3.) Promising to help the blacksmith
4.) Helping 2 dalish elves fall in love
5.) Promising Wynne that you will try to save the mages
6.) Siding with the chantry in the little dispute at Lothering

For the first and second one, well...  my character told Flemeth that "No harm shall come to your daughter".
So dragging Morrigan into what looks like an impossible situation(think about it from the characters perspective and not a gamer) is my fault and I completely understood why she'd disapprove.

For the third, its a matter of "Why the hell would you help someone that refuses to help the village in the first place?". Basically, she disapproves of blatant stupidity, not "goodness".

For the fourth... what can I say, she hates love. (theres more to it than that but its really subjective and too long to write about)

For the fifth and sixth... her past bias against the chantry and the circle of magi is simply clouding her judgment. The writers tried to portray her as a human, afterall, not a machine of logic.  Besides, if her approval of you is high enough, you can change how she views the situation during the Circle of Magi quest.

[oYOSSARIANo]

Drunkencelt wrote...

archonambroseus wrote...

Drunkencelt wrote...

Lelaine is the one who is confused. Hey I am a bard/spy/murderer but a self righteous/goody two shoes at the same time.

Until you talk to her and she admits that while she does believe in the Maker and the Chantry she really hated being there and just used it to escape her persuers and avoid drawing attention.

Actualy, the I am confused and is that who I am conversation is after her sidequest is completed in Denerim. This takes place after the conversations you refer too.

Lelaine just comes off as poorly written too me. All her protests and values are a direct contradiction to her whole life. She did worse things in Orlais then Morrigan ever did growing up. Some reason we aren't discussing the nature of her character beacuse she has flowers and bows in her hair. People fall in love with that sappy lovey dovey stuff.

Morrigan is the one who grows and matures as a direct result of your relationship together. She expresses regret, tries to warn you of the harm of your relationship, and is distraught that you two could even become that close. These are all natural human emotions everyone feels. Every single man who swears they never get married goes through that range of emotions.

In a lot of way I agree, before I even read you post, I was thinking if Morrigan is evil what is Leliana, a thief who used to murder men she had seduced (just like Flemeth) who is practised in dirty fighting.

Modifié par oYOSSARIANo, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:22 .

[Drunkencelt]

rumination888 wrote...

For the fifth and sixth... her past bias against the chantry and the circle of magi is simply clouding her judgment. The writers tried to portray her as a human, afterall, not a machine of logic.  Besides, if her approval of you is high enough, you can change how she views the situation during the Circle of Magi quest.

Morrigan has the same predisposed reaction toward the Circle that various other npcs have in their respective situations. Allistar throws a giant sissy fit, demanding to be king just to kill someone out of hatred and revenge. He does a complete 180 and then goes on to continue dreading the crown. Sten thinks all mages should be killed on the spot, but no one is calling him truely evil? Infact, pretty much the enitre country treats mages/evles like crap but no ones calling them a nation of evil. If they allowed this to happen, and continue to allow themselves to be treated so, why should I save them?

[houdinimachine]

HoLyEmperor wrote...


She loathes those who are too weak to free themselves.  The Circle Magi?  Slaves, best to wipe them out.  The Tevinter slaver in Denerim?  Obviously the elves are pathetic and weak, so best to sacrifice their life force for a gain in health.

You can convince her that it's right to save the Circle magi by telling her she could have been one of them if not for Flemeth.

[Axterix]

red8x wrote...

Is Morrigan even human?

Pretty sure she is.  I think Flemeth acquires young magic capable girls, probably no more than a year or two old and then raises them to be future hosts.

[Drunkencelt]

I think there is no truly good or evil main characters in this game. That is the point of the overtly large grey area, you decide how to interact and proceed.



I was going to do a truly good and evil play through, till I realized a lot of the options I choose would of been the exact same.

[marshalleck]

rumination888 wrote...

For the fourth... what can I say,
she hates love. (theres more to it than that but its really subjective
and too long to write about)

Cammen and Gheyna? She probably disapproves of hooking them up since Cammen is such a failure when it comes to hunting, i.e. survival. He's a poor quality mate and has no right to be reproducing, to be blunt.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:27 .

[DrekorSilverfang]

And what does "evil" mean?

[rumination888]

marshalleck wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

For the fourth... what can I say,
she hates love. (theres more to it than that but its really subjective
and too long to write about)

Cammen and Gheyna? She probably disapproves of hooking them up since Cammen is such a failure when it comes to hunting, i.e. survival. He's a poor quality mate and has no right to be reproducing, to be blunt.

Actually Cammen has never failed. He never even tried. He CANT try.
The Keeper barred all hunters from entering the forest to keep them away from the curse, remember?

[oYOSSARIANo]

marshalleck wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

For the fourth... what can I say,
she hates love. (theres more to it than that but its really subjective
and too long to write about)

Cammen and Gheyna? She probably disapproves of hooking them up since Cammen is such a failure when it comes to hunting, i.e. survival. He's a poor quality mate and has no right to be reproducing, to be blunt.

That's why his was the ONLY quest I never did first play through. He reminded me of Fargoth from Morrowind, I disliked him too.

[keesio74]

keesio74 wrote...

As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think Morrigan is evil. She doesn't get a thrill out of hurting people (which is true evil IMHO). But she is selfish (as she stated to the PC and Leliana) and looking to further her own gain. She is also very flawed and hurt and I believe her feelings of love/friendship she can display is honest.

In D&D terms she is Chaotic Neutral with the hope of one day being redeemed to Chaotic Good.

She also reminds me of a mix of Kitiara/Raistlin of the Dragonlance books. They both viewed love as a weakness that should be avoided and like Morrigan struggled with dealing with that affection (Raistlin with his brother and somewhat Crysania while Kitiara with Tanis and Dalamar). And of course they were all damaged emotionally and thirsted for power.

Then again both Kitiara and Raistlin were considered Evil characters so perhaps I defeated my own argument?

Oh and I totally forgot to mention the whole Flemeth needing young bodies as a host to move on to. That is totally Fistandantilus(sp?) prepping Raistlin as a host.