144 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

rumination888 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

For the fourth... what can I say,
she hates love. (theres more to it than that but its really subjective
and too long to write about)

Cammen and Gheyna? She probably disapproves of hooking them up since Cammen is such a failure when it comes to hunting, i.e. survival. He's a poor quality mate and has no right to be reproducing, to be blunt.

Actually Cammen has never failed. He never even tried. He CANT try.
The Keeper barred all hunters from entering the forest to keep them away from the curse, remember?

My PC had no problem walking to the gate and entering the forest. He fails because he doesn't try.

My PC also had no problem convincing Gheyna that she deserved better, and took her for a roll in the sack.

[rumination888]

marshalleck wrote...

My PC had no problem walking to the gate and entering the forest. He fails because he doesn't try.

My PC also had no problem convincing Gheyna that she deserved better, and took her for a roll in the sack.

I didn't realize your PC was a part of their tribe.

...are you sure you aren't trying to make stuff up so society won't call you "evil" in order to feel good about yourself?

[marshalleck]

I think you need to explore the dialogue options in the game more thoroughly.

Not making it up. You can sleep with Gheyna as a human noble and then tell Cammen about it to break them up.

Odd thing is, Wynne approves of your little tumble with the elf girl.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[rumination888]

marshalleck wrote...

I think you need to explore the dialogue options in the game more thoroughly.

If you tell him that you'll get a wolf pelt for him, he will refuse your offer.
If you tell him to break his tribes law by entering the forest, he will refuse your suggestion.

[omgduckies]

I have trouble viewing Morrigan as traditionally evil, even in the Dungeons & Dragons sense, mostly because of comments made by Kate Mulgrew.



Kate, who plays Flemeth, has said in an interview that "Her (Flemeth's) daughters are really there to serve her more diabolical needs. However, even within that reality, Flemeth can be touched by her daughter. And she is touched by Morrigan, because Morrigan is innocent. She is beautiful. She is vulnerable. She is accessible. She is everything that Flemeth once was. So we realize through Morrigan than Flemeth is touchable, moveable, is still attainable on one level."



Perhaps reading this interview has made me come from a place of bias, but because of it I rather see Morrigan as an innocent, seeing the world through a skewed lens crafted for her by Flemeth.



(PS: You can read Kate's fantastic interview here! http://fidgit.com/ar..._classic_gr.php )

[Axterix]

oYOSSARIANo wrote...

In a lot of way I agree, before I even read you post, I was thinking if Morrigan is evil what is Leliana, a thief who used to murder men she had seduced (just like Flemeth) who is practised in dirty fighting.

Actually, Leliana tried to avoid killing people, that is why she went the seduction route.  When talking about bards, there's a conversation about how bards operate.  She says some steal, some assassinate, and that some seduce, in a way that strongly implies she's of the latter.  If the seduction was discovered, then she might have to kill.  But seduction, not murder was her art.  She was also good at infiltrating, not by stealth, but by assuming a low key look and blending in, like she belonged.

And she's loyal.  She didn't want to betray her country.  She didn't want to betray her master.  There's always been a bit of niavity to her, even when she was doing the bard thing in the home country.  Not selfish, like, say, Morrigan.

Also worth noting that part of why Leliana is so big on redemption and happiness for everyone is that she found herself changed while in the chantry, found herself at peace.  She doesn't agree with what the chantry preaches, but she did like the how she felt while she was there, leaving only when she felt the Maker told her to.  When you are talking to her in the aftermath of dealing with her former mentor, she worries that she might go that, wonders if she can be redeemed, worries about evil tendencies.  And even with that, she doesn't want to kill people, even those who have wronged her.

Quite different than, say, Morrigan.  Morrigan would view all that as weaknesses.  And she'd give in to her nature. 

The equivelant for Morrigan would be if she gave in to her desire to be loved, to want to be part of society, and gave up her desire for personal power as part of that, after finding out Flemeth betrayed her.

Now, it is possible that Morrigan could have reached that point.  But she definitely wasn't there, as shown by her leaving if she can't get baby.   Leaving if she does get preggers, well, that might be necessary for whatever the plan is for superbaby, be it good, evil, or something inbetween.

[RunCDFirst]

Is Morrigan really evil?

Yes. Burn it with fire.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 26 novembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[Sidney]

Morrigan isn't evil....she's a borderline sociopath though.



You wonder if the "old god" plan has been in the works all along or if she found the plan from Flemeth's book.

[Herr Uhl]

marshalleck wrote...
Not making it up. You can sleep with Gheyna as a human noble and then tell Cammen about it to break them up.

Odd thing is, Wynne approves of your little tumble with the elf girl.

It is a good deed. Cammen is a loser.

And Morrigan is not evil, she just got raised by Flemeth and has not really talked to any other people up to that point.

[marshalleck]

Herr Uhl wrote...

And Morrigan is not evil, she just got raised by Flemeth and has not really talked to any other people up to that point.

That's not true at all really. She has been outside the swamp..she even talks about having numerous previous trysts with men from around the wilds.

[MassEffect762]

Bah, take away her looks and most of you wouldn't even bother with this girl.



You know I know it, if you met her equivalent in real life most of you would steer clear.



Just another cash cow if you ask me. Good job Bioware.

[Herr Uhl]

marshalleck wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And Morrigan is not evil, she just got raised by Flemeth and has not really talked to any other people up to that point.

That's not true at all really. She has been outside the swamp..she even talks about having numerous previous trysts with men from around the wilds.

Yes, but as an alien, she never really understood them.
There is a difference. It is kind of like with Sten, but worse.

[marshalleck]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Bah, take away her looks and most of you wouldn't even bother with this girl.

You know I know it, if you met her equivalent in real life most of you would steer clear.

Just another cash cow if you ask me. Good job Bioware.

If I met you in real life I'd think you're jealous.

Of course, it's just a game, so I don't think that.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 novembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[Original182]

Yes Morrigan is evil even without realizing it, due to her upbringing. She either cannot tell the difference between right and wrong (willing to let the mages in the Mages Circle be sacrificed just because she disapproves of them being submissive to the Chantry), or she doesn't care.



The only reason why she doesn't wantonly kill people is because she may not survive the outcome.

[marshalleck]

Herr Uhl wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And Morrigan is not evil, she just got raised by Flemeth and has not really talked to any other people up to that point.

That's not true at all really. She has been outside the swamp..she even talks about having numerous previous trysts with men from around the wilds.

Yes, but as an alien, she never really understood them.
There is a difference. It is kind of like with Sten, but worse.

But she has talked to other people. Done more than that, even. She's not some completely backward feral child who's been raised by wolves and can't speak.

[Herr Uhl]

Yes, but neither is Sten. And still he does not understand humans.



I simply think of her behavior as a natural side effect of being raised by a bitter old crone in the middle of nowhere.

[Walina]

Tyrf wrote...

This is simply something I was thinking about...

Why is Morrigan considered evil for giving you a choice?

She offerred a method to save your life and gave you the option to choose.  If she really wanted to be evasive, Morrigan could have simply forced you to take her along for the final battle...

If she were truly evil, would it not be easier for her to simply sleep with you and say NOTHING about the possiblity of the old god transfer, and let the killing blow take place anyway?

In fact, if she slept with the main char at any point, she would already be pregnant even without the final scene.

Perhaps she was really being sincere when she offerred you the choice?

Well, random ponderings.

That has nothing to do if you romanced her or not because Bioware made this for both females and males players.

Please sto thinking only as a male consider other people feeling, what's the point of asking that question again ? what's your problem fans o fMorrigan of making hundred of thread to just say : I disagree because I like Morrigan ??

Take a look at girls who make topics about how to solve their problem instead of screaming to the world : "whyy everyone hateee Alistair ??"

<_<

[marshalleck]

omgduckies wrote...

I have trouble viewing Morrigan as traditionally evil, even in the Dungeons & Dragons sense, mostly because of comments made by Kate Mulgrew.

Kate, who plays Flemeth, has said in an interview that "Her (Flemeth's) daughters are really there to serve her more diabolical needs. However, even within that reality, Flemeth can be touched by her daughter. And she is touched by Morrigan, because Morrigan is innocent. She is beautiful. She is vulnerable. She is accessible. She is everything that Flemeth once was. So we realize through Morrigan than Flemeth is touchable, moveable, is still attainable on one level."

Perhaps reading this interview has made me come from a place of bias, but because of it I rather see Morrigan as an innocent, seeing the world through a skewed lens crafted for her by Flemeth.

(PS: You can read Kate's fantastic interview here! http://fidgit.com/ar..._classic_gr.php )

That's an interesting and insightful interview. Mrs. Mulgrew obviously knows a lot more than we do about Flemeth so far. This game is really piquing my curiosity, I can't wait to see where the story goes from here.

Thanks for the link.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 novembre 2009 - 07:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

Ah, yes, that interview have probably altered my viewpoint slightly. Kind of like how reading the books make Loghain seem less like an useless paranoid man with lust for power.

[Zamav]

Morrigan is Neutral Evil in the full sense of D&D definition. She reminds me of Ammon Jerro sometimes.



Neutral Evil doesn't mean killing babies at every chance you get. It can be as bland as kicking the beggar and his dog everytime just for the sake of it, and as rich as watching the reactions of Morrigan. I'd say she's extremely well written. If nothing else, this discussion alone proves that

[JamesX]

Morrigan will screw over anyone for what she wants.

Morrigan doesn't want happiness for anyone.

If Morrigan need to chose between joy/love or raw power - she will pick power everytime, because as far as she is concerned that is the only thing that makes a difference.

Morrigan does not care about the suffering of others.

Morrigan have no problem screwing over anyone for her goals.

She might not be the devil incarnate, but she is definitely evil.

[Axterix]

Original182 wrote...

Yes Morrigan is evil even without realizing it, due to her upbringing. She either cannot tell the difference between right and wrong (willing to let the mages in the Mages Circle be sacrificed just because she disapproves of them being submissive to the Chantry), or she doesn't care.

Thing about this though is Morrigan has one huge trigger that sets her off.  She hates cages. 

She believes things should run free and that those things that don't run free, well, don't deserve to be.  That's why pretty much everytime you run across something caged, especially if it is shows some life, pride, spirit, whatever, she wants it set free.  Jowan should be freed.  Sten shouldn't be caged.  And the Chantry is an oppressive system to her, pretty much slavery or prison labor.  And that institution should be wiped out.  Yeah, a bit harsh, but keep in mind that the Circle is tied to the templars and both institutions are against Morrigan roaming free.

I don't really fault her for that.  It isn't so much evil as being fanatically opposed, and her on the side that typically is not the one starting things.  So she finally gets the chance for some payback against the system.  Any surprise she wants to take it?  But even then, she's pretty easy to talk out of it, if you put your foot down, not a big hit at all.

What I do fault for her for is being pro-demons running around possessing people.  You'd think she'd be against that, as possessed mages only serve to show the value of keeping mages under control.

The only reason why she doesn't wantonly kill people is because she may not survive the outcome.

I think most of the time, she needs a reason to kill people.  Not just because they are there.  She's more live and let die than someone prone to going on a murderous rampage.  Of course, what qualifies as an acceptable reason to kill someone for her differs a bit from what most people would consider acceptable, due to her upbringing.

[Original182]

Axterix wrote...
Thing about this though is Morrigan has one huge trigger that sets her off.  She hates cages. 

She believes things should run free and that those things that don't run free, well, don't deserve to be.  That's why pretty much everytime you run across something caged, especially if it is shows some life, pride, spirit, whatever, she wants it set free.  Jowan should be freed.  Sten shouldn't be caged.  And the Chantry is an oppressive system to her, pretty much slavery or prison labor.  And that institution should be wiped out.  Yeah, a bit harsh, but keep in mind that the Circle is tied to the templars and both institutions are against Morrigan roaming free.

Too harsh. Letting the mages die without even trying to save them (the good route) is a strong indication that Morrigan is dangerously amoral. If Morrigan doesn't approve of something, let it die or suffer.
The Chantry is not an oppressive system. It's just trying to protect mages from themselves and the rest of the world.
Look at what happened to Connor. So many people died because Isolde hid him and let his power get the best of him.
Look at what happened to the Circle. If it wasn't for the templars, the abominations would go unchecked. This is what the Chantry is worried would happen.

You cannot expect mages to be more free just because there are people like Morrigan are smart enough not to make pacts with demons or let them possess her. That's the problem, not many people are as strong or smart. If we let things be like how Morrigan wants it, there will be more Connors around the world.

Nevertheless, it is still wrong to abandon people just because they don't live up to your expectations.

I don't really fault her for that.  It isn't so much evil as being fanatically opposed, and her on the side that typically is not the one starting things.  So she finally gets the chance for some payback against the system.  Any surprise she wants to take it?  But even then, she's pretty easy to talk out of it, if you put your foot down, not a big hit at all.

I guess you cannot blame her due to her upbringing, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to think that way. It's only thanks to the main character that she's held in check.

What I do fault for her for is being pro-demons running around possessing people.  You'd think she'd be against that, as possessed mages only serve to show the value of keeping mages under control.

Actually in one of her conversations about apostates, she did acknowledge that some magics outside of the circle or Chantry is bad because they involve demons, but just because some are like that, doesn't mean ALL apostates (like her shapeshifting magic) are like that.

But she doesn't provide alternatives on how to prevent people like Connor or Uldred from harming people, better than the Chantry's methods, which she hates so much.

[Vilegrim]

The palladium alignment scale defines her better, she is one of the selfish alignments, and depending on if she develops during the game she is either Anarchist (starts out that way) 1) Keeps her word but only if it suits her, 2) Lie cheat and steal if necessary/desirable to do so 3) Not likely to help someone without gain 4) Ignore the law when possible 5) possibly betray a friend. Or Unprincipled, becomes this on the friendship/romance path. 1) Keep her word to a friend 2)lie and cheat is necessary 3)have a high regard for personel freedom 4) break the law to achieve her goals.



These are incomplete lists but they give the idea of the alignments and I think they fit her. Loghain is Aberrant on that scale, the honourable villian 1) Keep his word of honour (but be careful only his word of honour, he will lie to you) 2)Torture to extract information and to intimidate, but not for pleasure 3) Have no use for laws or beaucracy, but respect honour and discipline. 4)Never betray a friend. (Note only Maric was his friend, everyone else can go hang)

[Axterix]

Original182 wrote...

Too harsh. Letting the mages die without even trying to save them (the good route) is a strong indication that Morrigan is dangerously amoral. If Morrigan doesn't approve of something, let it die or suffer.
The Chantry is not an oppressive system. It's just trying to protect mages from themselves and the rest of the world.
Look at what happened to Connor. So many people died because Isolde hid him and let his power get the best of him.
Look at what happened to the Circle. If it wasn't for the templars, the abominations would go unchecked. This is what the Chantry is worried would happen.

Actually, both those things can be directly attributed to the repressive Circle system.

Conner's mother felt she had to get a private tutor to train him enough to hide his mage talents because she didn't want to lose her son.  That trainer turned out to be Jowan, who was not a full fledged mage, probably not the best qualified to teach, but was available, because the Circle system wouldn't let him have his love, causing him to feel the need to flee.

The whole mess inside the circle, meanwhile, happened on the scale it did because a large chunk of mages wanted out of the system.  And to do that, they believed they needed violent means, needed power, and so turned to blood magic.

On other hand, look at your free roaming mages, the ones who haven't had their lives ruined by the circle.  You've got a bunch of Dalish.  One sorta bad apple there, with his curse that caused the WW situation, but you could talk him out of it without violence and overall, he's been very good for his people.  Flemesh is evil, but not as crazy bad as what happened inside the tower or Redcliffe.  She's a smart evil, in for the long term.  Morrigan is slightly tilted toward evil, would wind up like Flemesh, except Flemesh would take her body.  And who knows how many other mages hanging out in more tribal conditions?

Now, would you still need oversight on mages?  Yeah, definitely.  Too easy for them to go bad, too easy for them to go powerhungry.   But is the circle the best way?  Is having mages hate themselves because they can do magic good?  Is taking 5 year old kids away from their parents good?  Is stripping someone of all emotions and magic because they might go bad good?

I guess you cannot blame her due to her upbringing, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to think that way. It's only thanks to the main character that she's held in check.

Without the main character, she wouldn't be in the tower.  And keep in mind that the templars are waiting to kill everyone inside the tower as well.  She wants to scour the tower to free future mages.  Templars want to do it to be sure they end the threat to the land.  Both are good from a certain point of view.  Both are also bad.

The whole circle thing is not set in stone, morally.

Actually in one of her conversations about apostates, she did acknowledge that some magics outside of the circle or Chantry is bad because they involve demons, but just because some are like that, doesn't mean ALL apostates (like her shapeshifting magic) are like that.

Now go let kitty possess the girl and see who approves.  A few other cases like that as well.  She's fine with letting demon possessed people run around, long as they don't mess with her.

But she doesn't provide alternatives on how to prevent people like Connor or Uldred from harming people, better than the Chantry's methods, which she hates so much.

I don't think she feels a need to state what is obvious.  Master + student pairings seem to work pretty well for the Dalish and Flemesh.  And there are people who can seak out and deal with mages who overstep their bounds, just like your party did when the Templars failed in their duty. 

Although, mostly, she's a barbarian.  She'd rather pull down the trapping of civilization and let nature takes its course and figure it out.  Imposing structure isn't her job.  But woe be to any who try to curtail her freedom.

Modifié par Axterix, 26 novembre 2009 - 10:14 .