144 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

"Evil" is the word I hate the most. I never use it.



Morrigan is, imo, an ubersmench. She doesn't give a **** about petty concepts like "good" and "evil" that humans decided to create. She doesn't need those concepts to make decisions. She doesn't need to label her enemies as "evil" or her allies as "good". Of course for that reason, the masses would be inclined to consider her evil. A ridiculous thought.

Morrigan is self centered (good for her), a good liar and planner, capable of showing mercy when deserved, passionate, becomes truly in love...etc. She is all of those things, but she is not "evil".



In Dragon age, there is absolutely no one I had the urge to call evil. There are people I hated, but I don't need to call them "evil" to cut their heads off.

[Count Viceroy]

In the end, good and evil are a matter of perspective. Simple as that. This topic is rather pointless.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[Vilegrim]

Original182 wrote...

[
Too harsh. Letting the mages die without even trying to save them (the good route) is a strong indication that Morrigan is dangerously amoral. If Morrigan doesn't approve of something, let it die or suffer.
The Chantry is not an oppressive system. It's just trying to protect mages from themselves and the rest of the world.
Look at what happened to Connor. So many people died because Isolde hid him and let his power get the best of him.
Look at what happened to the Circle. If it wasn't for the templars, the abominations would go unchecked. This is what the Chantry is worried would happen.

You cannot expect mages to be more free just because there are people like Morrigan are smart enough not to make pacts with demons or let them possess her. That's the problem, not many people are as strong or smart. If we let things be like how Morrigan wants it, there will be more Connors around the world.

Nevertheless, it is still wrong to abandon people just because they don't live up to your expectations.

Think for a second of what the Circle of mages does,  kidnaps children, forces demons into them t test their strength, or completly destroys their humanity by making them tranquil, and they tried to do this to her, would you forgive them?

[Vansen Elamber]

Personally I don't think she is evil however I also don't think she totally understands how Flemeth can still influence her and actually controls her even if the player chose to kill Flemeth when Morrigan asked for that. I think Flemeth has planted the notion of Morrigan offering the ritual at the appropriate time, and somehow when the "god child" is concieved Flemeth will somehow be a part of it.

Has anyone ever read Steven Erickson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series? As soon as I saw all of this taking place with Morrigan, Flemeth, and the god child, I thought of the character in those books known as Silverfox who had the spirits of others in her and I somehow think the spirit of Flemeth will be a part of the god child. Just my oppinion though...

Modifié par Vansen Elamber, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:00 .

[Vilegrim]

Vansen Elamber wrote...

Personally I don't think she is evil however I also don't think she totally understands how Flemeth can still influence her and actually controls her even if the player chose to kill Flemeth when Morrigan asked for that. I think Flemeth has planted to notion of Morrigan offering the ritual at the appropriate time and somehow when the "god child" is concieved Flemeth will somehow be a part of it. Has anyone ever read Steven Erickson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series? As soon as I saw all of this taking place with Morrigan I thought of the character in those books known as Silverfox who had the spirits of others in her and I somehow think the spirit of Flemeth will be a part of the god child. Just my oppinion though...

now that I hadn't thought of, the game is inspired by dark fantasy novels and they don't come much darker than the Malazan series, hmm, Silverfox, if the god child is anything like her, messiah and destroyer god and lonely young woman, shaman and shapeshifter,  and generally an enigma wrapped in a puzzle, hmm.

[Vansen Elamber]

Also note that Flemeth's story as told by Morrigan and what little you get from Flemeth herself that all children she ever had were female, she raised only daughters and I suspect the same will be true with Morrigan so the god child will be female, just as silverfox was.

[Allattar1]

Morrigan doesnt screw the PC over in the end. At least thats not how I viewed it. There was a hidden agenda, but an honest offer to save your life.

You are assuming that a child with a soul of an old god is going to be a rampaging malovent force.

The child has to be hidden, becuase it would be obvious from the anyone observing said child that something was not right with it. At best the Chantry would force it to go to the circle of mages, at worst the templars would kill it. Morrigan knows the child could not survive in view of anyone in Fereldan, her only hope is to keep the child safe out of sight, in the wilds.

Of course this child has a destiny, but what that destiny holds?... well I assume thats what DA 2 will show us.

Why can our hero not go looking for Morrigan, and live with her? reasons here have to do with Morrigan and the child and visibility again.

Morrigan despises the chantry, and from her actions thoughts and approval in my view she wishes mages to be free. Free to choose and live without fear of being killed should they think the wrong thoughts.
Of course there is no question that weaker minds succomb to creatures of the fade, which makes this issue a matter of grey, and not black and white.

How does the tevinter imperium stop abominations, they do not have the chantry?
Certainly the elves never needed the chantry, and then the dwarves. I had an ending where the dwarves founded there own school of magic, much to the worry of the chantry, and rumours of another march.

edit:
Wanted to also point out that the assumption that the blight would continue in the child with the soul of an old god.  I assumed that the soul of the old god is being reborn, that the blight already in the child is from the blood of the Warden.  A warden isn't turned by the blight for 30 years.  That this time we are dealing with an unknown.  Whilst the soul of the old god (dragon) has been touched by blight, I feel that Morrigan knows this and thinks she can account for this. 
Certainly the blight stops with the death of the archdemon, where if the archdemon continued in the child, it would not.

Modifié par Allattar1, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[Xivai]

Is Morrigan evil? Well I won't be so stupid to run in here waving my good and bad tm light sticks, but let's break this down a little. I think it comes down to her ACTIONS, sure she may say and suggest all these things or even agree with it. What has she actually done?

Ill do what she says and believes first: 
Thinks that killing off the mages in the tower is a good thing. She wants only the strongest people left alive, and if these mages can't care for themselves what are they good for during a battle with darkspawn? Where I disagree with this reasoning is that she can't see there is sometimes more to be gained by letting them live then by killing them. If they live you have Mages, and Templar to fall back on. Where as if you kill them you only have Templar. Not good when war comes down to numbers and they have more. Although she has the best of intentions, she fails at thinking. I am going to lob this into the evil bin, I am doing this because she wanted to kill them just because they failed once. She couldn't really justify why other than personal opinion, she was being selfish, but more importantly so selfish she wanted people to die because of her personal opinions. So yea, evil. Not to mentiont he Templar are hihgly trained combatants in a unique way, and the fact that they are not evil opressors. She does not see that they actually make the mages stronger, because now they have magic on their side and anti magic for enemy casters. Clearly whoever set up the circle was an amazing tactical genius. Not to mention if people are so weak then why have we founded this amazing civilization called Ferelden, while not perfect it is still stronger than any individual. She doesn't seem to get it in her head that there is more strength in numbers than anything else. What feelings and emotions bring people togeather? Love, compassion, and kindness. Those kinds, and they tie society togeather and make it stronger.

Where powerful magic failed to defeat the Tevinter Imperium, some lowly rebels banding togeather out of feelings of opression and sadness allowed them to triumph over a vastly superior opponent. So yes, she is evil in this regard, and yes she may even be dumb.
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Now on to her "not caring" about people. I think she cares more than she likes to admit, if she didn't care why go out and steal pretty mirrors and be sad when they are broken? Why feel betrayed by Flemmeth? Why care about saving the world at all? No she cares, but in her own special way, and more like speshul way. She thinks that by being tough and harsh only the strongest susvive, and thus people will succeed and be happier. She also thinks by letting only the strong survive that we stand a better chance against the blight. Is it evil? Could be, but a belif does no harm. So she may be a little stupid, but not evil in this instance. Also yes, she does care or she wouldn't be doing anything at all. Does she care alot would be a better question. 

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The elder god. I think she is under some sort of dellusion here myself. I mean it took nations to bring these dragons down. I think she will be in for a nasty surprise after the ritual, if it happens. Now it could go either way, it could be good or it could be bad. I am guessing it will have a mind of it's own from birth. Sort of like Letto II in the dune series, super smart beyond everything. So I think it may use her more than she can see. Point is there is no way to tell if it will be evil or not, but considering these things ruled through fear and were known for destroying armies I do not think it is likely to be good. So the most likely thing is she sets loose upon us another **** storm from Tevinter as they get a new god, and compiled witht he darkspawn creates a perfect climate for a lot of death. So I am going to go and say evil here, but more of a selfish evil than anything. She just wants the child for herself so she can do what she wants to do, anything good or bad that happens in the process is irrelivant, but from what I seen she will most likely not take kindly to it being good. So this falls into the spectrum of evil, but how evil? Well either way the intent is ****ing off the evil charts. A baseline for measuring evil is kilo****s, and a baseline of supreme evil is the offspring of cruelledeville and Sauron who is at 50 kiloz****s. I picture her somewhere in the 100 kilo****s range of evil for her intent. I mean this is a lot of potential bad just so she can be selfish.
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Don't even get me started on her actions, oh boy we will go on and on. Basically yes, she is evil. I am basing this off of what ought to be, and how much people benefit from what ought to be. I also factored in the individual, how is it fair if everyone agrees upon something but one person disagrees? So I factored in just how selfish she was, not that fact that she was just being selfish. I also tried to see if she had any valid points for helping people, and while she did it was secondary to her own needs. So she shifted right into neutral evil.  So yes, she is selfish and evil. No she is not RAWR BURN MAIM KILL evil. Although I think any good done would only be to better her own selfish aims. So I am going to go and lump her into Neutral Evil as I said above.

Now I think it is more appropriate to see if it is possible to redeem her somewhere down the line in another game.

Edit
She did honestly approach you at the end instead of tricking you. So yes she does care, and yes she could easily shift to chaotic neutral. Although currently she is just a little too far into neutral evil.

Modifié par Xivai, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:26 .

[Allattar1]

I still think the child with the sould of the old god will, whilst not being purged of blight, will be an unknown in the future. The child will definately not be an archdemon, but may even be immune to the blight in the same manner as a grey warden. Though where a Warden eventually succombs after 30 years, this child may last longer.



However I am fairly sure we will find out in a sequel and possibly even play the child in a sequel.

[rodchett]

Morrigan is not evil. If you were raised by Flemeth alone in the forrest, interacting with animals and passively observing people... you would also have difficulty understanding how "normal" people deal with each other. Morrigan believes in survival of the fittest. It's why she doesn't approve of putting the needs of random people before your own and that of the mission.

[rodchett]

Allattar1 wrote...

I still think the child with the sould of the old god will, whilst not being purged of blight, will be an unknown in the future. The child will definately not be an archdemon, but may even be immune to the blight in the same manner as a grey warden. Though where a Warden eventually succombs after 30 years, this child may last longer.

However I am fairly sure we will find out in a sequel and possibly even play the child in a sequel.

I thought so too, but what happens if you didn't use that option? and no babymaking took place? Also, at the something along the lines of "We've seen the last of the Hero of Ferelden --  for now..." is said. I was thinking that your kid maybe be an NPC

[Allattar1]

It all depends on how the sequel will work I suppose.

Will the sequel follow a "This is the canon series of events" and start up at a later time with new characters.

Or will it be a, loads your saved game checks what you did. Some things happen in the sequel regardless of whether you asked for them or not. Such as the elves gaining the Wilds, the circle gaining a little more independance, explained either as your actions or due to another plot reason.



If its the second then a god child will be a sideplot, but we will see I guess.

[slackbheep]

Dragon Age is so great precisely because questions like this are so hard to answer.
In my opinion: No, Morrigan is not explicitly evil. I feel that her personality is largely molded by the PC throughout the adventure which makes sense. S/he is likely the person Morrigan has known longest save for Flemeth. Though initially she seems to believe in survival of the fittest, she seemed to soften as the adventure progressed.

I must admit that this may simply be due to having pursued her romance subplot and the order in which I completed areas, On my second play through I am trying to keep her either around neutral or perhaps lower to see if it changes my perceptions.

Edit: As for which ending will be Canon, I feel that the male pc/morrigan romance and dark ritual ending is the most likely outcome. That the the game will take place either from the point of view of the child, or the child will be a companion/major player. This is all assuming Morrigan isn't secretly a dragon cultist, Flemeth, Batman,  or a time traveller. It is also quite likely that the game will be set 200 years in the future where you're dealing with an Old God who's decided to make themselves known, and hints of another blight perhaps happening in another country. This would allow them to avoid upsetting people by having Bhelen on the throne, the circle of mages having only recently fully recovered from a purge, ect.

Modifié par slackbheep, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:20 .

[Akka le Vil]

slackbheep wrote...

Dragon Age is so great precisely because questions like this are so hard to answer.

Seriously, they aren't THAT hard to answer. The debate comes from personnal opinions more than anything, and depend on people considering that pushing someone to kill others just because she doesn't like them, or considering that people should be left to die, is "evil" or not.

[supakillaii]

She's no evil.

Power is everything, End justifies the means and Power is to be respected.

[Vilegrim]

Akka le Vil wrote...

slackbheep wrote...

Dragon Age is so great precisely because questions like this are so hard to answer.

Seriously, they aren't THAT hard to answer. The debate comes from personnal opinions more than anything, and depend on people considering that pushing someone to kill others just because she doesn't like them, or considering that people should be left to die, is "evil" or not.

Considering that you butcher your way thru entire companies of troops, sentient werewolves, dwarves of a different alliance, etc, that are thinking beings and not blight adominations, it;s pretty hard to apply our standards directly, otherwise everyone is evil, simply by how the world is setup, how all computer games are setup in fact.

[DPSSOC]

Original182 wrote...

Too harsh. Letting the mages die without even trying to save them (the good route) is a strong indication that Morrigan is dangerously amoral.  If Morrigan doesn't approve of something, let it die or suffer.

Why should she help those who refused to help themselves?  The Mages chose to put their trust in the Templar, they chose to allow themselves to be caged in the tower, they chose to force mages to study dangerous magicks in secret.  All the problems the Circle faces are of their own making, the Annulment, the abominations, everything.  They could have stopped all of this a long time ago but they didn't and now they face the consequences for those actions.

Original182 wrote...

The Chantry is not an oppressive system. It's just trying to protect mages from themselves and the rest of the world.
Look at what happened to Connor. So many people died because Isolde hid him and let his power get the best of him.
Look at what happened to the Circle. If it wasn't for the templars, the abominations would go unchecked. This is what the Chantry is worried would happen.

The Chantry is oppressive, well meaning perhaps, but oppressive none the less.

Connor is the Chantry's fault.  The Chantry decided that Mages couldn't inherit titles out of fear of letting them have any kind of power or freedom, and the Chantry decided that those who can use magic must be locked away from those who can't.  Those decisions forced Connor's mother to hide her son's abilities and seek teaching outside the Circle.  If the Circle were run more like an academy and less like a prison Connor could have developed his abilities in a safe and controlled environment.

Same with Uldred.  By forcing those who wish to learn Blood Magic to do so in secret you rob them of any protections that might be offered by their colleagues.  Imagine if you will someone trying to build a bomb.  Is the bomb more likely to blow up in their face if they're given a proper facility and materials or if he has to make it in his garage out of whatever happens to be handy?

Now Morrigan is evil, by societal definition of the term.  She's self serving, uncaring, manipulative, ruthless, and the list goes on.  She is not however bad.  She's willing to do whatever is necessary to survive, she desires neither dominance nor destruction of anyone, and if left alone is no threat to anyone.

[Malsumis]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

She's not evil in my opinion. She's a selfish **** however. For obvious reasons due to her upbringing.

She screws the PC over in the end. Ergo, she's evil. Anyone that isn't working for you is against you.

Really, and here I thought she saved the PC/Kings life. I would call it a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Akka le Vil wrote...

slackbheep wrote...

Dragon Age is so great precisely because questions like this are so hard to answer.

Seriously,
they aren't THAT hard to answer. The debate comes from personnal
opinions more than anything, and depend on people considering that
pushing someone to kill others just because she doesn't like them, or
considering that people should be left to die, is "evil" or not.

If Morrigan is evil, then so is Leliana, Zevran and Sten. Sten cares nothing for helping the weak and is extremely annoyed if you help, Leliana and Zevran are murderers that killed for money. The only truly 'good/noble' characters would be Alistair and Wynne.

I personally, would say none of them are 'evil'.

[Raxtoren]

evil? its like saying a child predator is evil, yes he is,but like 8-9/10 has been molested as kids themselves, so that says something, morrigan hasnt lived in a normal world, she is acting as any human would do living under her cirumstances.

[Naturalus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"Evil" is the word I hate the most. I never use it.

Morrigan is, imo, an ubersmench. She doesn't give a **** about petty concepts like "good" and "evil" that humans decided to create. She doesn't need those concepts to make decisions. She doesn't need to label her enemies as "evil" or her allies as "good". Of course for that reason, the masses would be inclined to consider her evil. A ridiculous thought.
Morrigan is self centered (good for her), a good liar and planner, capable of showing mercy when deserved, passionate, becomes truly in love...etc. She is all of those things, but she is not "evil".

In Dragon age, there is absolutely no one I had the urge to call evil. There are people I hated, but I don't need to call them "evil" to cut their heads off.

I liked Morrigan she was polite, intelligent, independent.

You say that Morrigan is liar I dont think there was any point on the story where Morrigan actually lied to my PC she never told everything but that is not lying. Morrigan was more of reserved and did not trust people and I think that she did not tell everything for my PC becouse she did not trust that others would understand her goals and motives and she was propably right in that considering the fact how backstabbing world in DOA is.