88 réponses à ce sujet

[Luzarius]

(Before responding to this post make sure you understand what metagaming is)

Early in the game Dr. Eva emerges from the crashed shuttle (after james rams into it). Then she grabs Kaiden and pummels him.

Then Dr. Eva rushes at you....... Keep in mind, at this point she has no armor, no barrier, no shields.

PROBLEM

I shoot her two times and notice that her health barely goes down.  Given the rate of health degrade from bullet fire vs how close she is to you, one would conclude it's impossible to take her down this way (think about this, her health barely goes down from gunfire, why keep shooting when she is so close?). What is the next logical choice for an Adept?  What would an adept shepard do if he/she knew that gunfire was barely hurting an opponent?....................

.................. Correct, use a crowd control ability like throw, singularity, pull. Only a soldier would keep firing or even use a melee attack.

Unfortunately Dr. Eva is completely immune to biotics even though she had no shield, no barrier and no armor.

Simple question: How are we supposed to know Dr. Eva is immuned to biotics without metagaming?

Perhaps it is explained why Dr. Eva is immuned to biotics "AFTER" the encounter.  But using information gained from a future the character does not know yet would be metagaming. I'd rather figure out how to defeat an opponent the first time through subtle clues, codex and paying attention to dialogue rather than using "dying" and "reloading" as way of learning how to beat a scenario.

What really irks me is that you are allowed to use your abilities even though none of them will work.  Shouldn't bioware disable the abilities? Why let the player use abilities that won't work against her?  Now if the game had a datapad somewhere before the encounter that describes Dr. Eva being immune to abilities in a direct or indirect way that would make sense. Then allowing the user to make a mistake would be justified since the player didn't read the datapad for example.

Help me out here. I'm not trying to be a smart ass. This is the first time I've encountered something like this in the Mass Effect series. In ME1 & ME2 you could learn before hand how to conquer challenges the first time by simply paying attention to detail, dialogue & codex.

Maybe it was mentioned in a codex that she is immuned to biotics? If so which codex?  Help me out please. This is a sincere & genuine inquiry.

Luzarius
http://www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"No death ruleset, death to metagaming"

Modifié par Luzarius, 07 mars 2012 - 05:17 .

[KingDan97]

Luzarius wrote...

(Before responding to this post make sure you understand what metagaming is)

Early in the game Dr. Eva emerges from the crashed shuttle (after james rams into it). Then she grabs Kaiden and pummels him.

Then Dr. Eva rushes at you....... Keep in mind, at this point she has no armor, no barrier, no shields.

PROBLEM

I shoot her two times and notice that her health barely goes down.  Given the rate of health degrade from bullet fire vs how close she is to you, one would conclude it's impossible to take her down this way (think about this, her health barely goes down from gunfire, why keep shooting when she is so close?). What is the next logical choice for an Adept?  What would an adept shepard do if he/she knew that gunfire was barely hurting an opponent?....................

.................. Correct, use a crowd control ability like throw, singularity, pull. Only a soldier would keep firing or even use a melee attack.

Unfortunately Dr. Eva is completely immune to biotics even though she had no shield, no barrier and no armor.

Simple question: How are we supposed to know Dr. Eva is immuned to biotics without metagaming?

Perhaps it is explained why Dr. Eva is immuned to biotics "AFTER" the encounter.  But using information gained from a future the character does not know yet would be metagaming. I'd rather figure out how to defeat an opponent the first time through subtle clues, codex and paying attention to dialogue rather than using "dying" and "reloading" as way of learning how to beat a scenario.

Help me out here. I'm not trying to be a smart ass. This is the first time I've encountered something like this in the Mass Effect series. In ME1 & ME2 you could learn pre-hand how to conquer challenges the first time by simply paying attention to detail, dialogue & codex.

Maybe it was mentioned in a codex that she is immuned to biotics? If so which codex?  Help me out please. This is a sincere & genuine inquiry.

Luzarius
http://www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"No death ruleset, death to metagaming"

She's immune to all powers, as a sentinel my overload didn't even touch her shield. Plot armor is the strongest power in the game, you weren't meant to be able to stop her.

[Luzarius]

She's immune to all powers, as a sentinel my overload didn't even touch her shield. Plot armor is the strongest power in the game, you weren't meant to be able to stop her.

After the shuttle crashes, she emerges with no shields and no armor. Did you not see her health bar?  No armor, no shields.

Please read my entire post before responding.

Modifié par Luzarius, 07 mars 2012 - 07:26 .

[Raging Nug]

Plot armor was a joke, Luzarius.

[KingDan97]

Raging Nug wrote...

Plot armor was a joke, Luzarius.

Nice to see someone got it <_<

[Luzarius]

KingDan97 wrote...

Raging Nug wrote...

Plot armor was a joke, Luzarius.

Nice to see someone got it <_<

Plot Armor (also known as Magic Bullet Shield, as seen in map scripts) is an informal term referring to a character's unusual ability to survive, due to their importance to the story.


If you're gonna joke around at least be clever about it. Plot armor is about survival.  Even though Dr. Eva survives she was still "defeated".  Gunfire can penetrate the plot armor while biotics can't.   True plot armor would of ensured her victory in any situation.

this can be seen when certain NPCs shrug off machine gun fire, grenade blasts, and other normally fatal events.

Normally biotic abilities vs health ensure control/success.

Modifié par Luzarius, 07 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[StarcloudSWG]

"Plot armor: When a character in a novel, game, movie, or TV show seems to be invulnerable to all harm despite being naked, nearly naked, or wearing normal not-bullet-resistant clothing, they're said to be wearing plot armor. This is an intangible, invisible kind of armor that makes the character in question immune to any harm, up until the plot no longer requires the character to be immune."

[Luzarius]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

"Plot armor: When a character in a novel, game, movie, or TV show seems to be invulnerable to all harm despite being naked, nearly naked, or wearing normal not-bullet-resistant clothing, they're said to be wearing plot armor. This is an intangible, invisible kind of armor that makes the character in question immune to any harm, up until the plot no longer requires the character to be immune."

"Up until the plot no longer requires the character to be immune"...

Once she emerges from the shuttle she is no longer immune since we can bring her down with gunfire.

Hence gunfire will do damage but biotic abilities do no damage.

My original question: How are we supposed to know that Dr. Eva is immune to biotics (when she has no armor/shields/barrier) without metagaming?

Modifié par Luzarius, 07 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[Soundsystem]

You're not.

Your Shepard just doesn't know. She goes down in only a few gun shoots though so I fail to see the issue?

She's also not just immune to biotics. So I would assume it has something to do with the metallic body.

[Luzarius]

Soundsystem wrote...

You're not.

Your Shepard just doesn't know. She goes down in only a few gun shoots though so I fail to see the issue?

She's also not just immune to biotics. So I would assume it has something to do with the metallic body.

It's an issue of metagaming - http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Metagaming

The first time I did this encounter I used biotics since I'm playing an adept. I shot a few times and noticed the bullets did no damage so i switch to biotics, but she was completely unaffected despite no armor and no shield/barrier.

Basically I had to die once to learn that she is immuned to biotics. Then next attempt I used the gun which doesn't really make sense sense I'm playing an adept. An adept's first instinct against an unarmored, unshielded target is to use biotics especially when gunfire doesn't do any damage initially.

Also, on a side note I'm going to stop responding to posts that don't address my OP. I can't keep bumping the thread that's a no no.

Modifié par Luzarius, 07 mars 2012 - 08:24 .

[AlphaJarmel]

It's done for cinematic purposes. Yes it's bull**** but better to move on.

[Soundsystem]

Luzarius wrote...

Soundsystem wrote...

You're not.

Your Shepard just doesn't know. She goes down in only a few gun shoots though so I fail to see the issue?

She's also not just immune to biotics. So I would assume it has something to do with the metallic body.

It's an issue of metagaming - http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Metagaming

The first time I did this encounter I used biotics since I'm playing an adept. I shot a few times and noticed the bullets did no damage so i switch to biotics, but she was completely unaffected despite no armor and no shield/barrier.

Basically I had to die once to learn that she is immuned to biotics. Then next attempt I used the gun which doesn't really make sense sense I'm playing an adept. An adept's first instinct against an unarmored, unshielded target is to use biotics especially when gunfire doesn't do any damage initially.

Also, on a side note I'm going to stop responding to posts that don't address my OP. I can't keep bumping the thread that's a no no.

Well, if it's really that important I guess your Shepard just canonically died and you should restart with a new Shep.

But seriously, if we're really going to go in this in a real world scenerio an adept wouldn't have a handy dandy little health bar so that they can know how much the bullets are working. Thus it's completely feasible that your adept would have kept shooting til Eva dropped because adept!Shep wouldn't have known it did little damage.

Several responses have addressed your question. You just don't seem to like the answers.

Edit: Eva's whole body is made out of armor. So. She is wearing armor. 

Modifié par Soundsystem, 07 mars 2012 - 08:37 .

[Luzarius]

Well, if it's really that important I guess your Shepard just canonically died and you should restart with a new Shep.

How does the new shep know that she is immune to biotics?

But seriously, if we're really going to go in this in a real world scenerio an adept wouldn't have a handy dandy little health bar so that they can know how much the bullets are working. Thus it's completely feasible that your adept would have kept shooting til Eva dropped because adept!Shep wouldn't have known it did little damage.

I never ran into this issue in ME1 or ME2.  Most of the time bioware explains things pretty well and leave subtle clues.   The game mechanics imply that shep knows when shields are down and when armor is damaged to a point where certain biotic powers come into play.

Several responses have addressed your question. You just don't seem to like the answers.

The answers weren't correct. Which answer was correct? I didn't see one.

Edit: Eva's whole body is made out of armor. So. She is wearing armor.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Warp - Warp is effective against armor.

Yet it does no damage to Eva. I tried throw, warp, singularity, pull.   The only thing that works is gunfire until she is at like 80% health.

Maybe I should try it again just to be thorough.

[Hecuter]

What's even more bizarre about that scene is that I suddenly had a pistol in my hand while my Shepard had assault rifle / sniper rifle configured with no sidearms on him.

Bad scripting is bad.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

A better question is why make an enemy totally immune to a certain classes powers? That is extraordinarily poor design.

[MageCeridan]

Hecuter wrote...

What's even more bizarre about that scene is that I suddenly had a pistol in my hand while my Shepard had assault rifle / sniper rifle configured with no sidearms on him.

Bad scripting is bad.

You mean like all the times my characters have assault rifles in cutscenes when they can't/don't use one?

[Luzarius]

Hecuter wrote...

What's even more bizarre about that scene is that I suddenly had a pistol in my hand while my Shepard had assault rifle / sniper rifle configured with no sidearms on him.

Bad scripting is bad.

Ouch, so it's worse than I thought.  Hopefully the game doesn't have problems like this further in.

I feel as if I should just re-roll a soldier since that scene is obviously designed for the gunfire soldier type class who shoots first with weapon instead of relying on anything else.

Now I feel I had to meta game and completely broke how I play shep. My shep is supposed to be this adept biotic who relies on biotics first and gunfire last.

Modifié par Luzarius, 07 mars 2012 - 02:17 .

[stylepoints]

You will have an avenger in your hands in 80% of the cutscenes. Even on the soldier it switches your assault rifle to the avenger for the scenes.

Edit: Even your squad members that can't use assault rifles will have them occasionally.

Modifié par stylepoints, 07 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[Kopikatsu]

stylepoints wrote...

You will have an avenger in your hands in 80% of the cutscenes. Even on the soldier it switches your assault rifle to the avenger for the scenes.

Edit: Even your squad members that can't use assault rifles will have them occasionally.

Interestingly, there was a scene in the Monestary where Shepard uses the currently equipped weapon to shoot a Cannibal. I was like...'Where did my magical cutscene Avenger go?'

Modifié par Kopikatsu, 08 mars 2012 - 01:27 .

[Militarized]

If you're mad about this, wait till you finish the game!

[Ry3 Sjursen]

I couldn't even Charge Dr. Eva. And I can charge things with shields and armor and barriers. I was kind of frustrated. Reminded me of one of those D&D games when you can't kill an enemy, despite doing anything to them. I can understand the need for her to stay alive, but I feel like it could have been done better. Maybe less running?

For some reason my Vanguard will use a shotgun in cut-scenes every now and then, but others it will use the Avenger. The lack of consistency is interesting... I mean I have been dealing with it for the last 2 games, so it is no big deal, I just hope in the future the transition would be seamless.

[Svests]

I don't think metagaming is actually required here. When I got to that scene, I'm also playing an adept, I was able to hit her with a singularity, see that it did nothing, and still had time to finish her off with my gun before she got to me. You don't really need to metagame it, you just need quick reaction time.

[Luzarius]

Svests wrote...

I don't think metagaming is actually required here. When I got to that scene, I'm also playing an adept, I was able to hit her with a singularity, see that it did nothing, and still had time to finish her off with my gun before she got to me. You don't really need to metagame it, you just need quick reaction time.

Wrong.  If you fire two shots initially you can easily tell that you won't get her down to 0% health given how close she is to you. Anyone with half a brain will quickly realize it's impossible to get her down to 0% health given how close she is to you (unless your weapon does A LOT of damage maybe?). To win that encounter you have to get her health to like 60-70% and then it goes into a cutscene ... There is no way to know that without metagaming.

A true adept would instantly realize it's impossible to get her health to 0% and instead try to control her with biotics since she has no armor & shields.

The first time you experience it you'll immediately realize it's impossible to get her to 0% life, therefore you stop shooting and find a better way to control the situation (singularity, throw, pull.. then warp for more damage)...

Modifié par Luzarius, 08 mars 2012 - 07:56 .

[ZX12r Ninja]

Oh noes! An action sequence of about 2 seconds and you found problems with it. What will we do! The horror! The humanity!

[Luzarius]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Oh noes! An action sequence of about 2 seconds and you found problems with it. What will we do! The horror! The humanity!

I've never experienced this type of flaw in a mass effect game before. This is why I'm concerned.  I've never had to metagame before to win an encounter in ME1 or ME2.

Modifié par Luzarius, 08 mars 2012 - 07:58 .