189 réponses à ce sujet

[Farbautisonn]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Dragon Age 2 has far more dialogue choice than ME3.

[Corvus Metus]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Corvus Metus wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Corvus Metus wrote...

More posts how dialogue choices are what makes an RPG?

Do people forget that the genre existed before '97 or something?

The genre came from tabletop RPGs in which you took up a role and made decisions based on your character's personality aspects.

Dialogue options and decisions are what defines RPG. It was the core aspect of their origins.

Except that tabletop RPGs are not defined by your character's actions but the mechanics behind the game system you are using.  For example, as a long time Dungeons & Dragons player I've gamed with groups that focus on narrative storytelling and others that played it as a glorfied wargame.   Neither method is incorrect.

I'm not refering to tabletop RPGs, however.   I'm refering to computer RPGs.  I don't recall a whole lot of conversation in any old dungeon crawler.  I don't recall any in most rogue-likes.  Yet both are still computer RPGs, same as Mass Effect and other modern games. 

Actually, what defines an RPG *IS* the character aspect.  Not the numbers.  It's a role-playing game, not a roll-playing game. 

Now, many people don't get that, and treat them as very complex open-space board-games -- and it's that approach which was first adapted to the computer in those early "RPGs" that you were talking about, and too often that's still what people are asking for when they ask for "RPG elements" in a game (see also, the gun mods and so on that people wanted back for ME3). 

Series like Fallout, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and so on, changed that.  You could, to the extent allowable by the medium, define and control who your character was.  They brought elements of actual roleplaying games to the computer. 

Now, after DA2 and ME3, it appears that Bioware wants to go off into the "interactive cinematic experience" direction, which has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with roleplaying games. 

Don't get me wrong,  I consider myself a role-player, not a roll-play.   I have run campaigns were we had sessions where the dice weren't even picked up and have made characters with suboptimal builds because certain options I was given fit the character and made sense to talk.  At the same time, I realize that its not the only way to play.

After all, Gary Gygax was more concerned with the dungeon crawl than a gripping narrative.  He was into insidious trap, dangerous monsters, and pitting the Dungeon Master against the player.  If the godfather of the genre plays this way, I have to concede that  even if it isn't my play-style, it is just as valid as my own.

Again, not of that matters.  I am refering exclusively to computer RPGs.    It was a very different genre, pre-1997 with the release of the original Fallout.    Do the old "gold box" AD&D games suddenly stop being RPGs because a new game-style game out? No, because they have the element which make an RPG; complex character creation.

And while we're talking about role-playing, Bioware games post-Baldur's Gate have always been rather poor at that.  Dragon Age and Mass Effect are both perfect examples of that.  I was still bound by what Bioware would allow my Shepard to do - and sometimes, I felt that I had to pick the closest option to what my Shepard would do rather than what he actually would do.   When I grew to realize he was Bioware's character and I was just guiding him, I actually grew to love the games.

EDIT: As for Dragon Age.  Well, the games only redeeming feature were its characters.   Everything else was disappointing.

Modifié par Corvus Metus, 07 mars 2012 - 06:42 .

[Eterna]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

Because nothing says we're at war like having a lot of conversations.

Are you under the impression that war is fought by mimes?

It's not won with exeedingly long monologues in the heat of a battle either. 

[adembroski11]

I don't think it's fair to compare this game to DA2, but I do get it. DA2 felt very, very rushed. This game doesn't feel rushed, but that the focus of the design changed significantly. DA2 was simply a poor game, in every conceivable measure. This is NOT a poor game. It's a very good game. Hell, I damn near tear up just thinking about the scene with the kid climbing on the shuttle at the beginning... between the score and the scene itself, it was really powerful. I simply question a lot of the departures from previous Mass Effects.

One obvious one is the texture quality vs. the animation quality. It appears that in order to support richer textures, they compressed the animations, thus giving them a more robotic look than they had before.

They also elected to delve deeper into Shepard's psyche... which I don't need to explore since MY Shepard's psyche exists in my head. I need the means which with to interact with my surroundings... a "deeper" Shepard is the least of my concerns. Shepard is the deepest character in the game BECAUSE it doesn't dictate who he is to me. ME3 has departed from that significantly. They're trying to tell me who my Shepard is, and I'm really not liking that.

I'm actually becoming angry every time Shepard speaks. Early on, I kinda just shrugged and went "ok, tell me a good story and let me make the big decisions and I'll live with this", but the further I get, the more I really want that control back.

Modifié par adembroski11, 07 mars 2012 - 06:47 .

[AkiKishi]

adembroski11 wrote...

I don't think it's fair to compare this game to DA2, but I do get it. DA2 felt very, very rushed. This game doesn't feel rushed, but that the focus of the design changed significantly. DA2 was simply a poor game, in every conceivable measure. This is NOT a poor game. It's a very good game. Hell, I damn near tear up just thinking about the scene with the kid climbing on the shuttle at the beginning... between the score and the scene itself, it was really powerful. I simply question a lot of the departures from previous Mass Effects.

One obvious one is the texture quality vs. the animation quality. It appears that in order to support richer textures, they compressed the animations, thus giving them a more robotic look than they had before.

They also elected to delve deeper into Shepard's psyche... which I don't need to explore since MY Shepard's psyche exists in my head. I need the means which with to interact with my surroundings... a "deeper" Shepard is the least of my concerns. Shepard is the deepest character in the game BECAUSE it doesn't dictate who he is to me. ME3 has departed from that significantly. They're trying to tell me who my Shepard is, and I'm really not liking that.

I'm actually becoming angry every time Shepard speaks. Early on, I kinda just shrugged and went "ok, tell me a good story and let me make the big decisions and I'll live with this", but the further I get, the more I really want that control back.

I turned mine to action and played it like I would a Final Fantasy game. Well a Final Fantasy game with inferior characters,cutscenes and direction anyway. But it was still better than trying to be the Shepard I'd been for the other two games.

Very decent game 8.5 but a cruddy RPG.

[Killjoy Cutter]

adembroski11 wrote...

I don't think it's fair to compare this game to DA2, but I do get it. DA2 felt very, very rushed. This game doesn't feel rushed, but that the focus of the design changed significantly. DA2 was simply a poor game, in every conceivable measure. This is NOT a poor game. It's a very good game. Hell, I damn near tear up just thinking about the scene with the kid climbing on the shuttle at the beginning... between the score and the scene itself, it was really powerful. I simply question a lot of the departures from previous Mass Effects.

One obvious one is the texture quality vs. the animation quality. It appears that in order to support richer textures, they compressed the animations, thus giving them a more robotic look than they had before.

They also elected to delve deeper into Shepard's psyche... which I don't need to explore since MY Shepard's psyche exists in my head. I need the means which with to interact with my surroundings... a "deeper" Shepard is the least of my concerns. Shepard is the deepest character in the game BECAUSE it doesn't dictate who he is to me. ME3 has departed from that significantly. They're trying to tell me who my Shepard is, and I'm really not liking that.

I'm actually becoming angry every time Shepard speaks. Early on, I kinda just shrugged and went "ok, tell me a good story and let me make the big decisions and I'll live with this", but the further I get, the more I really want that control back.

Exactly -- they've taken away that sense of player agency.  They've ditched it in favor of something else, whether that's "artistic storytelling", "streamlining for the FPS market", or something else... hard to say for sure. 

And in that way, it is a flaw that's shared with DA2 -- the player has ZERO control over the outcome or over whether certain plot points occur.  One sibling dies, the other is lost or dies.  Leandra dies.  The Arishok goes to war.  Anders blows up the Chantry.  Hawke loses everything but maybe a love interest in the end.  Etc. 


(Damn typos.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 07 mars 2012 - 07:43 .

[Maria Caliban]

thrones6 wrote...

Salaya wrote...

When someone complains on the Bioware forums about one of the games, he/she is automatically branded as a troll, a crybaby or a "nutjob". I don't see any insults in the OP post, but many direct attacks to the forum user that started this topic.

If the new forum rules were something near to the objective of making new, softer and enjoyable ambience, the users that insulted the OP should be banned. But, somewhat, I'm certain that it won't happen.

If you report a user, it will be investigated. There's a red icon by the top right of the post.

DO NOT USE THE RED REPORT BUTTON. PM A MOD IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.

[SeminoleFarms]

adembroski11 wrote...

They also elected to delve deeper into Shepard's psyche... which I don't need to explore since MY Shepard's psyche exists in my head

Bingo, and (insert whatever term the kids use these days for "I second that comment")

[Julia343]

I'm enjoying the game big time. I really want to have long drawn out conversations while big assed lasers are blasting glass all over the place so I can gather more details before I determine where I want to take cover. I really need to have detailed conversations while bullets are whizzing over my head. Save the details for when we're in safer areas, and that was done.

Perhaps I don't care for the overly detailed conversations? In RL, I'm not all touchy feely anyway. Just get to the point. I got stuff to do. You want dialog options you'll need a "people person." lol. RE Shepard's psyche? They nailed it.

I've gotten from earth > mars > citadel > cerberus station, and I'm going with a 8.8 on this game (subject to change later). That's a high rating from me - drawback is still that Shepard doesn't go back into cover sometimes. I never give anything higher than a 9.5. I'm playing as RPG.

Modifié par Julia343, 07 mars 2012 - 07:16 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Julia343 wrote...

I'm enjoying the game big time. I really want to have long drawn out conversations while big assed lasers are blasting glass all over the place so I can gather more details before I determine where I want to take cover. I really need to have detailed conversations while bullets are whizzing over my head. Save the details for when we're in safer areas, and that was done.

Perhaps I don't care for the overly detailed conversations? In RL, I'm not all touchy feely anyway. Just get to the point. I got stuff to do. You want dialog options you'll need a "people person." lol. RE Shepard's psyche? They nailed it.

I've gotten from earth > mars > citadel > cerberus station, and I'm going with a 8.8 on this game (subject to change later). That's a high rating from me - drawback is still that Shepard doesn't go back into cover sometimes. I never give anything higher than a 9.5. I'm playing as RPG.

Maybe they nailed Shep's psyche for you, but it sounds like they missed it for a lot of people who played different Sheps in ME1 and ME2. 

Which is something of the point you seem to be missing.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Well, it's quite easy for full paragon and full renegade, but I don't think it's even possible for paragade and renegon Shepard.

[Wulfram]

Eterna5 wrote...

It's not won with exeedingly long monologues in the heat of a battle either. 

But this isn't about how much Shepard talks, it's about how much control we have of him when he does.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Wulfram wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It's not won with exeedingly long monologues in the heat of a battle either. 

But this isn't about how much Shepard talks, it's about how much control we have of him when he does.

Exactly. 


But that won't stop some people from quick-responding with red herrings like "It's a war!" whenever the changes in ME3 are criticized or questioned.

[android654]

Has no one ever read a book on war or seen a film about war? War and Peace? Saving Private Ryan? The Company? Band of Brothers? The Pacific? Wind Talkers? Miracle at St. Anna?

They never shut the f**k up! It's a war, there's a lot to contemplate when your life is in danger and you have to keep risking it in order to do what you've set out to do.

[Heartrot]

Corvus Metus wrote...

KnifeForkAndSpoon wrote...

Corvus Metus wrote...

More posts how dialogue choices are what makes an RPG?

Do people forget that the genre existed before '97 or something?

They were part of what makes a Mass Effect game.

You mean like in ME1, where the neutral and paragon dialogues were the same?  And sometimes, all three choices would lead to the same line regardless?  Maybe I see things different than some people, but I'd rather have less choices that actually mean something than the illusion of choice.

Man, it's refreshing runnin' into someone with some sense on this place.

[gangly369]

I love it when people compare ME3 with DA2, despite the fact that the problems with DA2 have NOTHING in common with what people are complaining about with ME3.

I'll comment more on what people are saying about the 'lack of control' they have over Shepard when I get a chance to play the game myself, but from what I can tell, it's mostly the old, hardcore gamers who haven't come to gripes yet that the whole ME series isn't what they wanted it to be and they think it should be some kind of different RPG. Could be wrong though so I'll withhold judgement

[Caelistas]

Modifié par Caelistas, 07 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[Caelistas]

Modifié par Caelistas, 07 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[Caelistas]

gangly369 wrote...

I love it when people compare ME3 with DA2, despite the fact that the problems with DA2 have NOTHING in common with what people are complaining about with ME3.

I'll comment more on what people are saying about the 'lack of control' they have over Shepard when I get a chance to play the game myself, but from what I can tell, it's mostly the old, hardcore gamers who haven't come to gripes yet that the whole ME series isn't what they wanted it to be and they think it should be some kind of different RPG. Could be wrong though so I'll withhold judgement

Na, DA2 was a bad rushed job, everyone knows it.

ME3 doesn't suffer "quite" from these problems, and is "fairly" polished (although they should've done some better bug-testing before release), and most of the game is really really good and fun.... it's just that everything goes to hell (even litterally) with the endings.

My opinion: screw the multiplayer, if they dropped that they could've polished up the game AND myabe write some decent endings.

[Heartrot]

gangly369 wrote...

I love it when people compare ME3 with DA2, despite the fact that the problems with DA2 have NOTHING in common with what people are complaining about with ME3.

I'll comment more on what people are saying about the 'lack of control' they have over Shepard when I get a chance to play the game myself, but from what I can tell, it's mostly the old, hardcore gamers who haven't come to gripes yet that the whole ME series isn't what they wanted it to be and they think it should be some kind of different RPG. Could be wrong though so I'll withhold judgement

Some awkward animations, low res textures, and a not so great FOV.  Basically, what was in the demo is in the game.  If you played the demo and liked it then you'll enjoy ME3.  If you didn't enjoy the demo I have no idea why you'd blow $60 on the game.  Give yourself something to cry about on these forums I suppose.

[TheRealJayDee]

OdanUrr wrote...

It's "whose."

Win.

[Killjoy Cutter]

gangly369 wrote...

I love it when people compare ME3 with DA2, despite the fact that the problems with DA2 have NOTHING in common with what people are complaining about with ME3.

I'll comment more on what people are saying about the 'lack of control' they have over Shepard when I get a chance to play the game myself, but from what I can tell, it's mostly the old, hardcore gamers who haven't come to gripes yet that the whole ME series isn't what they wanted it to be and they think it should be some kind of different RPG. Could be wrong though so I'll withhold judgement

The thing is, DA2 and ME3 so in fact share the deep and crippling flaws of reduced player agency, and railroad plotting.

[MsKlaussen]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

Because nothing says we're at war like having a lot of conversations.

Are you under the impression that war is fought by mimes?

It's not?

I was told to endure Walking Against The Wind at parks because it's a reenactment of Navy SEALS attempting to feel their way around dark enemy control rooms in Russia to find the abort button on their nukes during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
 
But I slipped so many mimes tongue in honor of the heroes they were portraying...why didn't they tell me? 

Modifié par MsKlaussen, 08 mars 2012 - 02:09 .

[SalsaDMA]

Heartrot wrote...

gangly369 wrote...

I love it when people compare ME3 with DA2, despite the fact that the problems with DA2 have NOTHING in common with what people are complaining about with ME3.

I'll comment more on what people are saying about the 'lack of control' they have over Shepard when I get a chance to play the game myself, but from what I can tell, it's mostly the old, hardcore gamers who haven't come to gripes yet that the whole ME series isn't what they wanted it to be and they think it should be some kind of different RPG. Could be wrong though so I'll withhold judgement

Some awkward animations, low res textures, and a not so great FOV.  Basically, what was in the demo is in the game.  If you played the demo and liked it then you'll enjoy ME3.  If you didn't enjoy the demo I have no idea why you'd blow $60 on the game.  Give yourself something to cry about on these forums I suppose.

That reminded me of the people crying: "Don't slag the game based on the demo!" when people started to complain about issues they didn't like with the demo...

Guess it's DA2 all over again in some areas.

[Killjoy Cutter]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Heartrot wrote...

Some awkward animations, low res textures, and a not so great FOV.  Basically, what was in the demo is in the game.  If you played the demo and liked it then you'll enjoy ME3.  If you didn't enjoy the demo I have no idea why you'd blow $60 on the game.  Give yourself something to cry about on these forums I suppose.

That reminded me of the people crying: "Don't slag the game based on the demo!" when people started to complain about issues they didn't like with the demo...

Guess it's DA2 all over again in some areas.

[appologist]

"ME and DA have different teams!"

[/appologist]


( EDIT:  you'd never believe the word I just found out is censored, PM me if you want a good laugh. )

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 mars 2012 - 07:58 .