178 réponses à ce sujet

[Sereaph502]

There is a HUGE difference between "Oh people just want sunshine and rainbows endings, people don't understand that not everything is happy!" and an ending genuinely not being good in the slightest, and quite frankly the "Not everything ends happily" excuse is just one big fallacy, as the majority of the time it's only used to insult people who don't like a not so well done ending.

[Tartilus]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

I did.

I'm also offended at the notion that Bioware 'owes' the playerbase any sort of ending.

Is there a basis for that emotion which isn't rooted in your own unbearable self-rightousness? Bioware is a large company, I'm sure if they wanted you to scare off their enemies on your white stallion, they'd give you a call.

[QuirkyGroundhog]

Because videogames are art, and I'd rather an artist go with their artistic vision then compromise it to pander to their audience. Are there certain things the playerbase may have wanted? Sure. I know I didn't enjoy everything about Mass Effect 3. But I'd much rather they give me the game they wanted to make and the story they wanted to tell. Cause that's what art is.

Videogames are tough to do. It's interactive, and as such the 'audience' gets invested in new, powerful ways. Bioware is a pioneer in trying to match audience expectation and artistic vision, and I applaud them for choosing to lean more towards the latter, while still creating an engrossing game.

Modifié par QuirkyGroundhog, 10 mars 2012 - 08:41 .

[Sajuro]

I liked the ending of the game, I thought that star gazer sequence was nice too.
I admit I was confused by it at first but as I think about it I like it more.

[Sajuro]

Tartilus wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

I did.

I'm also offended at the notion that Bioware 'owes' the playerbase any sort of ending.

Is there a basis for that emotion which isn't rooted in your own unbearable self-rightousness? Bioware is a large company, I'm sure if they wanted you to scare off their enemies on your white stallion, they'd give you a call.

They don't 'owe' people an ending because they have given you the ending, just because it doesn't match up to what everyone was expecting doesn't mean it isn't an ending, and I was expecting a ****storm no matter which way the end went. If they made an alternate ending DLC I would buy that and run through it with a different Shepard, simply because I love how Bioware tells stories.

[Kabraxal]

I liked them. But then, I felt they left enough open to your own imagination that you could look at it how you please for the most part.

Though, I wouldn't mind a basic epilogue slide like DAO for some things.

[Tartilus]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

Because videogames are art, and I'd rather an artist go with their artistic vision then compromise it to pander to their audience. Are there certain things the playerbase may have wanted? Sure. I know I didn't enjoy everything about Mass Effect 3. But I'd much rather they give me the game they wanted to make and the story they wanted to tell. Cause that's what art is.

Videogames are tough to do. It's interactive, and as such the 'audience' gets invested in new, powerful ways. Bioware is a pioneer in trying to match audience expectation and artistic vision, and I applaud them for choosing to lean more towards the latter, while still creating an engrossing game.

As a professional writer: No, that is not what art is. You do not just get to do your thing and pretend you have no responsiblity to provide an enjoyable experience or a certain threshold of quality. There are subjective matters wherein artistic vision can be said to have sway, but there are objective matters where that vision takes backseat to the impetus to create good material. I cannot write a terrible novel (or, more to the point, an unfinished one) and tell my readers that their complaints are irrelevent because it's 'art.' I don't know why you feel that Bioware should be permitted as much.

[Revan312]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

Because videogames are art, and I'd rather an artist go with their artistic vision then compromise it to pander to their audience. Are there certain things the playerbase may have wanted? Sure. I know I didn't enjoy everything about Mass Effect 3. But I'd much rather they give me the game they wanted to make and the story they wanted to tell. Cause that's what art is.

Videogames are tough to do. It's interactive, and as such the 'audience' gets invested in new, powerful ways. Bioware is a pioneer in trying to match audience expectation and artistic vision, and I applaud them for choosing to lean more towards the latter, while still creating an engrossing game.

Except the original ending was leaked and so Bioware rushed out a piece of nonsensical garbage in it's place..  And I've been rooting since day one for a sacrificial Shep ending.. I even thought the emotional tone was spot on. Very tragic, very heartwrenching..

However, when taken as a whole, the ending was a giant copout and a huge middle finger to the "your choices matter" line that Bioware has been spouting ever since the first game..

How do they matter? What, the random 30 second low res movie is slightly different if you had lower or higher numbers in a UI screen? That you can get one of three colors of splashy explosion based on a decision in a vacuum? Or is it because we get to see the Normandy magicaly teleport to a random destination somewhere in space with the crew that was fighting with hammer squad on the ground?  Oh, nope, that's in every single ending "variation". Maybe they matter because... no.. nope, none of them matter in the end..

Let alone the fact that none of it makes any sense at all.  It's just like BSG. The show was great, until the end, when they pulled the ole "god did it" card and forced all the characters to do ridiculously stupid things. "Lets throw all of our technology into the sun and live like woodland native folk, derp!" Except here it's, oh, so the relays are destroyed in every single choice, can't I just refuse the choices alltogether? No? oh well then, guess I'll just walk over there and kill myself, screwing the entire galaxy over for hundreds of thousands of years..

This wasn't "art", it was a rushed, sloppy mess of an ending that solved no quandries, answered no question, brought up a crap load more questions, had zero resolution, made no sense and to top it off, made everything you did in all hundred hours of decision making from the three games null and void..

Ya, some artistic expression.. pff

[QuirkyGroundhog]

And as a writer, do you feel that the last 5 minutes of a 60 hour story invalidates the consistent quality of the rest? Cause if not, then their artistic vision, for the most part, certainly met the threshold of quality. Bioware's gut led me well for 60 hours, I'd rather they follow that.

[Pandaman102]

Ignoring everything that came before ME3, I really liked the ending. That's also the root of the problem - ignoring the first 2/3rds of a trilogy.

We all knew Mass Effect was a trilogy, we were told every decision we made would determine how the game would end, so in effect the entire process - from the moment Anderson introduced Shepard to Nihilus to the two old friends are sitting in the Citadel, dying of their wounds - we have been shaping Shepard to make that final choice.

Then that gets swept off the table and we're given the option of the blue pill, red pill, or green pill instead.

[Tartilus]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

And as a writer, do you feel that the last 5 minutes of a 60 hour story invalidates the consistent quality of the rest? Cause if not, then their artistic vision, for the most part, certainly met the threshold of quality. Bioware's gut led me well for 60 hours, I'd rather they follow that.

Endings are a different beast altogether. There are some fantastic writers who couldn't put together a good ending if their life depended on it, and in a team it's probably even more commonplace because of echo-chamber issues.

Regardless, I fundamentally reject the suggestion that we should trust 'Bioware's gut' in direct opposition to everything I understand makes a satisfying ending, especially when the vocal consensus (and I admit, of course, that such a self-selected sample can tell us nothing about their true perecentages) seems to agree that the endings are lackluster. 

[kj0600]

My ending was fine I played mostly Paragon ended up picking the 'Renegade' ending. I got what I wanted I saved Organic life, destroyed the Reapers. However what I don't like is that your choices meant nothing, you didn't have to unite anyone to get these endings, you just pick one. You didn't need to save everyone at the collectors base because in the end it doesn't matter. All that mattered was hey which glowing light should you walk to, Blue, Green, or Red?

[Hexxys]

In regard to the OP's question:

There are a few people who seem to, but they're a tiny minority of the overall consensus. Poll after poll show a decently large sample size of people irked about the lack of variance in the endings.

There is NOTHING wrong with a cataclysmic ending, or a bittersweet ending, or a Disney ending.  As long as it's possible to affect which one you get.

Modifié par Hexxys, 10 mars 2012 - 09:13 .

[ascended1]

Shwiggliness wrote...

 From what I'm reading on various sites, the endings to Mass Effect 3 and Mass Effect as a whole is one of those endings that seems to have been rejected by just about everyone. I'm interested to see if there is anyone on BSN who likese these endings and if there is anyone who can justify or explain their reasoning behind that. 

I can't stand the ending.  Not because Shepard dies.  Kill him off.  That's fine.  It's the end of his story.  Just make it something fitting.  Make it something choice related.  Nothing accomplished in the previous games means a damn.  No choices matter.  Paragon?  Renegade? Gopher?  Who cares.  Doesnt mean a thing.  It all boils down to a choice of your color of explosion. 

What happens afterwards to everybody?  Anybody?  (Minus the few that crashlanded who knows where.)  Does the galaxy get vaporized?  Fine, just say so.  Does everybody get stuck on their respective planets?  Great.  Just let me know.  Do the Krogans on earth end up having 3 trillion kids and starve to death?  Super.  Just.....say....something.  Besides Buzz Lightyear creepy geezer and his "my sweet."

[Sajuro]

Hexxys wrote...

In regard to the OP's question:

There are a few people who seem to, but they're a tiny minority of the overall consensus. Poll after poll show a decently large sample size of people irked about the lack of variance in the endings.

There is NOTHING wrong with a cataclysmic ending, or a bittersweet ending, or a Disney ending.  As long as it's possible to affect which one you get.

on that note, you don't see people at protests holding signs that says "I have no objections"
Also, if you think BSN is a clear representation of what people think about the Mass Effect games, I came here after number 2 and didn't know that anyone had a problem with the Mako before then.

[GoblinSapper]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Yes, there are a few.

From what I've seen, MY OPINION is that most people here want "My Little Pony rainbows" style endings, and have no idea what DARK Sci-FI is.

IMO, of course.

My only beef is the Normandy's leaving the Sol system.

Mass Effect is not dark sci-fi and has never been dark sci-fi. What the hell is 'dark' about space orcs (Krogan) or beautiful blue skinned bisexual space elves (Asari)?

Mass Effect is, and always has been, SPACE OPERA. It has the thematic components, it is Space Opera. You can try to slap 'dark' onto it, but it's not.

And crap, Dragon Age was 'Dark Fantasy' but it still let you swing a happy ending.

[Stouny]

I´ve played everything that was called Mass Effect and was ever released on PC. I´ve played ME3 with my character and got to these supposedly "bad" endings to discover that, they are not bad, just not what I expected them to be. 

After the Lair of the Shadow Broker, I was really looking forward to those blue children with Liara. But the endings were in the making since ME1 (Sov. said, that the relays were created to control the evolution of the organics, so they are not needed anymore etc..), creation of the human reaper in ME2... If you think about it, the backstory makes sense.

Well, and the endings themselves? I´ve made hundreds of choices during the trilogy and ME3 changed because of them. I don´t think that the endings are ignoring anything. You just have to think like your Shepard without the conv. wheel. If you want to, you can destroy syntetics and be "renegade", or you can control the reapers and be "paragon" or... you can create something new and ensure that there won´t be anymore cycles of destruction. 

Because I don´t need a conv. wheel to make a choice that would be appropriate for my Shepard. 

Pandaman102 wrote...

Ignoring everything that came before ME3, I really liked the ending. That's also the root of the problem - ignoring the first 2/3rds of a trilogy.

We all knew Mass Effect was a trilogy, we were told every decision we made would determine how the game would end, so in effect the entire process - from the moment Anderson introduced Shepard to Nihilus to the two old friends are sitting in the Citadel, dying of their wounds - we have been shaping Shepard to make that final choice.

Then that gets swept off the table and we're given the option of the blue pill, red pill, or green pill instead.

[NAWhisperBlade]

I wouldn't have minded if Shepard went out in a blaze of glory. Hell, a sad, tragic, ending would have made me happy. A Disney ending is even better.

The problem is that BioWare and EA are done taking our money are no longer give a crap.

[Costello_Anasazi]

I thought the ending sucked.

Now all the 'its dark sci-fi' have missed the point of why the ending sucked so badly. The story is going great up until the run for the sky bridge back to the citidel and then we get a matrix style cheesed up metaphysical ending and not the first good matrix film but one of the other two.

Suddenly the war is forgotten, everything done in the game up till this point is ignored such as curing the genophage or ending the geth war its all worthless and the entire galaxy is about to get trashed over as Shepard picks one of three equal bad endings. Does everyone have to live happily ever after hell no but it is a game one that people may have played from ME1 some 7 years ago. And to go out on such a lack luster ending of the normandy flying away from a coloured cloud and crashing doesn't do the story credit.

[Biotic Sage]

I'm not being contrary. I loved the ending. I couldn't believe my eyes coming to this forum to take a look around when i saw all the hate. I thought it was one of the most poignant and appropriate finales for the greatest sci fi trilogy of all time.  This is coming from a fan of the series since the very first game, someone with 9 Shepards and someone who has obsessed over the lore, story, and characters.

My response to your question OP would be another question:
Does anyone truly hate the ending and is not just going along with the hive mentality? Has anyone even stopped to personally reflect and form their own opinions before diving into the reactionary flames of the BSN?  I mean really stopped, taken a breath, and let it sink in for more than a couple minutes or hours.  It was that heavy.  It deserves reflection.  Many people can't let go of the status quo, and many people want to see plot holes because of this fact when really there are none if you paid close attention and really thought about it.  OTHER than the fact that some squadmates are on the Normandy at the end...that requires better editing and context, or it is a glitch.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 10 mars 2012 - 09:46 .

[Midz]

question did I like the endings ..........yes

[piemanz]

I quite liked the ending i got, Liara, Ashley and joker crash landing on a tropical planet somehow made my Sheps sacrifice seem all the more worthwhile. Fighting the reapers was never going to be easy, Those expecting a "brighter" ending seem to foget that.

[Tartilus]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I'm not being contrary. I loved the ending. I couldn't believe my eyes coming to this forum to take a look around when i saw all the hate. I thought it was one of the most poignant and appropriate finales for the greatest sci fi trilogy of all time.  This is coming from a fan of the series since the very first game, someone with 9 Shepards and someone who has obsessed over the lore, story, and characters.

My response to your question OP would be another question:
Does anyone truly hate the ending and is not just going along with the hive mentality? Has anyone even stopped to personally reflect and form their own opinions before diving into the reactionary flames of the BSN?  I mean really stopped, taken a breath, and let it sink in for more than a couple minutes or hours.  It was that heavy.  It deserves reflection.  Many people can't let go of the status quo, and many people want to see plot holes because of this fact when really there are none if you paid close attention and really thought about it.  OTHER than the fact that some squadmates are on the Normandy at the end...that requires better editing and context, or it is a glitch.

The 'Hive Mentality' might be a slightly more convincing argument if many of us hadn't come to these forums for the express purpose of vocalizing our displeasure as regards the ending.

I think we've already established that you were looking for something out of the endings that is different from what most people wanted. That's fine, but you need to stop acting like you have some more refined or enlightened interpretation of events; as if you've attained some understanding which sweeps aside what otherwise appear to be plotholes and lazy writing. You got something different out of the game then we were even looking for, and that it evoked in you the satisfaction we also crave is almost irrelevent. You are not furthering the discourse on this forum with your attempts to convince us that we need to take some extremely philosophical view of the ending. I'm happy that you're happy, but that neither makes you right, us wrong, or the ending acceptable.

Modifié par Tartilus, 10 mars 2012 - 09:52 .

[Pandaman102]

Stouny wrote...

I´ve played everything that was called Mass Effect and was ever released on PC. I´ve played ME3 with my character and got to these supposedly "bad" endings to discover that, they are not bad, just not what I expected them to be. 

After the Lair of the Shadow Broker, I was really looking forward to those blue children with Liara. But the endings were in the making since ME1 (Sov. said, that the relays were created to control the evolution of the organics, so they are not needed anymore etc..), creation of the human reaper in ME2... If you think about it, the backstory makes sense.

Well, and the endings themselves? I´ve made hundreds of choices during the trilogy and ME3 changed because of them. I don´t think that the endings are ignoring anything. You just have to think like your Shepard without the conv. wheel. If you want to, you can destroy syntetics and be "renegade", or you can control the reapers and be "paragon" or... you can create something new and ensure that there won´t be anymore cycles of destruction. 

Because I don´t need a conv. wheel to make a choice that would be appropriate for my Shepard.

Sorry, but I don't consider replacing a conversation wheel with three choices with a forked road with three choices as being meaningfully different. Perhaps it's more dramatic to limp one way, then waver and limp in another direction, but functionally it's the same: it's a paragon/renegade/neutral choice, except instead of your paragon/renegade level dictating which options are unlocked, it's your war assets threshold.

As to clarify what I meant about the ending ignoring the first 2/3rd of the trilogy: simply put, your decisions only translates into war assets and cameos. I enjoyed the interactions I had with every NPC I met in the previous games, I thought it was a great nod toward my actions, but it didn't actually influence how the game ended... or even progressed, really.

For example, killing the Rachni queen in ME1 should have prevented you from gaining Rachni workers, but on the other hand it should have also robbed the Reapers of their Ravager units. Destroying the Collector base should have reduced the ability of the ex-Cerberus scientists to contribute to the Crucible, but also weakened Cerberus' military strength. Every decision we made should have had an advantage and disadvantage, and in turn could have affected the Crucible's abilities.

Then on Shepard's side his/her decisions and Paragon/Renegade score could have influenced the framing of what motivates the final decision. A Paragon Shepard could have taken control of the Reapers and sent them away forever, leaving the future in the hands of the united races, or a Renegade Shepard could have gone all TIM and elevated humanity with Reapers as their servants. Both of these are the "Paragon" Control ending, both have very different implications to the fate of the universe.

So, no, we didn't need a dialogue wheel at the end to make our choice. In fact we didn't even need a forked path to make our choice. We made our choice long ago, it just never really materialized.

[Biotic Sage]

GoblinSapper wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Yes, there are a few.

From what I've seen, MY OPINION is that most people here want "My Little Pony rainbows" style endings, and have no idea what DARK Sci-FI is.

IMO, of course.

My only beef is the Normandy's leaving the Sol system.

Mass Effect is not dark sci-fi and has never been dark sci-fi. What the hell is 'dark' about space orcs (Krogan) or beautiful blue skinned bisexual space elves (Asari)?

Mass Effect is, and always has been, SPACE OPERA. It has the thematic components, it is Space Opera. You can try to slap 'dark' onto it, but it's not.

And crap, Dragon Age was 'Dark Fantasy' but it still let you swing a happy ending.

Genocide (Quarians/Geth), biological warfare (Krogan/Salarians), a cycle of galactic extinction and intelligent life being harvested (Reapers/The Cycle), dirty politics (Udina, certain ambassadors/councilors), people being turned into abominations (husks), suicidal odds and people being liquified (suicide mission), and sacrifice (Shepard and squad). 

...yep, sounds light hearted to me!

One of us is focusing on the things we want to and ignoring everything else (i.e. the foundational elements of Mass Effect).

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 10 mars 2012 - 09:55 .