86 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoni89]

I agree with the guy above me

[Revantis]

I dont understand the frustration with the ending. The only things i wanted from this game were:

1) what is the true nature of the reapers and why didnt they just come with overwhelming force right out of the gate.

2) Get to see everyone from the story line and interact with them in some fashion (no i dont care that my choices didnt ultimately change who they have become.) (ps. loved jack ftw)

3) Lastly, See Shepard go out the hero she/he is, and i felt i got that. I like that shepard doesnt live, i like that shepard has to make the hard choices with the Geth, and i got to say hey, the geth are right. Got finally really help the krogan.

 No matter what choice or path you take Bioware wanted to make it clear that this incarnation of the ME universe was over, and I dont blame them one bit. They had a vision that the relays would be destroyed, and that either way, humanity gets a second chance and the advanced organics in this timeline would ultimately be the first to get a second chance to start over.

Merging with the reapers to me was a great ending, although i was kinda torn cause i just freed the Geth, But it gives shepard the chance to not only save this cycle, but to effect other cycles in the future and i took comfort in that.

I think too many people had their own vision of what they wanted to see, and i'm actually proud of Bioware in a way for saying, hey you have had free reign up too now with how things play out, this ending is for us. Honestly, it should be, you dont get to rewrite books, you just read them and conclude from there on out how you see things past that point. This should be no different.

(ps dont be so emo next cycle tali)

Modifié par Revantis, 08 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[N7 Banshee Bait]

Hey ZX12r Ninja,

I'll make this real easy for you. You ever play the original Metal Gear Solid? Take a good long look at that games ending. Then maybe you'll understand.

[ZX12r Ninja]

Steelgrave wrote...


Mass Effect is the type of game where you get all the answeres served on a plate. It never was one of those psychological murder mystery thrillers with a lot of plot twists that fry your brain. Except for The Illusive Man's motives the entire series has been pretty straight forward.

What are you talking about? When ME came out it was praised for being a new genre unlike anyother game. Nonsense!

Ever since "The Sixth Sense" & The Others", everybody has been going for that super duper epic plot twist ending that nobody saw coming. It's easy to see that Bioware was going for the same thing but it just doesn't work for Mass Effect. We don't want some weird cryptic symbolism that you have to put together yourself. We don't want 50 million gaps that we need to fill in by ourselves (like you're trying to do). We don't want all our decisions that we made thoughout all 3 games being completely erased. We don't want more questions than we had in the beginning. We just want a real friggin ending. Something simple & satisfying.

Just because you lack the skills to understand and appriciate the story. Just because it didn't live upto your expectation doesn't mean it's "weird cryptic" or has "50 million gaps".

Did we need a major plot twist at the end of Star Wars for it to work? NO! Luke blew up the Death Star, everybody was happy, THE END! We all wanted the same thing for Mass Effect. Did we really need little ghost catalyst dude talking a bunch of stupid psychobabble? HELL NO! Did we need the mass relays to blow up & destroy all the planets we fought so hard to save? HELL NO! That's why nobody likes the ending, even if it did make sense, it just flat out sucked.

Yeah so? What did you expect? How was he goign to defeat the Reapers? A dues ex machina? A war which lasts centuries (that would be one long ass game)? How was he supposed to beat the Reapers?

Modifié par ZX12r Ninja, 08 mars 2012 - 11:21 .

[ZX12r Ninja]

Dragoni89 wrote...

I agree with the guy above me

You agree with the subscribe button? Nice!

[LordHelfort]

Revantis wrote...

I dont understand the frustration with the ending. The only things i wanted from this game were:

1) what is the true nature of the reapers and whey didnt they just come with overwhelming force right out of the gate.

2) Get to see everyone from the story line and interact with them in some fashion (no i dont care that my choices didnt ultimately change who they have become.) (ps. loved jack ftw)

3) Lastly, See Shepard go out the hero she/he is, and i felt i got that. I like that shepard doesnt live, i like that shepard has to make the hard choices with the Geth, and i got to say he, the geth are right. Got finally really help the krogan.

Its clear that no matter what choice or path you take Bioware wanted to make it clear that this incantation of the ME universe was over, and I dont blame them one bit. They had a vision that the relays would be destroyed, and that either way, humanity gets a second chance and the advanced organics in this timeline would ultimately be the first to get a second chance to start over.

Merging with the reapers to me was a great ending, although i was kinda torn cause i just freed the Geth, But it gives shepard the chance to not only save this cycle, but to effect other cycles in the future and i took comfort in that.

I think too many people had their own vision of what they wanted to see, and i'm actually proud of Bioware in a way for saying, hey you have had free reign up too now with how things play out, this ending is for us. Honestly, it should be, you dont get to rewrite books you just read them and conclude from there on out how you see things past that point. This should be no different.

(ps dont be so emo next cycle tali)

Except the ending is supposed to be for the fans, again as has been mentioned a hundred times, as they promised. If they said "We're going to end this our way, and we dont care whether you like it or not" people might have been skittish about buying. So either they're lazy, or they lied. Either way, these endings dont do it for the majority of the fan base.

[ZX12r Ninja]

Steelgrave wrote...

Hey ZX12r Ninja,

I'll make this real easy for you. You ever play the original Metal Gear Solid? Take a good long look at that games ending. Then maybe you'll understand.

LOL!! Ever heard of the MGS4 contraversy? So what you're saying is MGS did have this dramatic climactic ending but also the holes and lack of detail, but because of the ending it was good. ME3 has holes and lack of detail (in your words) but has a bitter sweet ending and thus it's bad.

So what you're saying is it's just the ending and not the details. Thank you for proving my point, next!

Modifié par ZX12r Ninja, 08 mars 2012 - 11:24 .

[N7 Banshee Bait]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Steelgrave wrote...


Mass Effect is the type of game where you get all the answeres served on a plate. It never was one of those psychological murder mystery thrillers with a lot of plot twists that fry your brain. Except for The Illusive Man's motives the entire series has been pretty straight forward.

What are you talking about? Nonsense!

Ever since "The Sixth Sense" & The Others", everybody has been going for that super duper epic plot twist ending that nobody saw coming. It's easy to see that Bioware was going for the same thing but it just doesn't work for Mass Effect. We don't want some weird cryptic symbolism that you have to put together yourself. We don't want 50 million gaps that we need to fill in by ourselves (like you're trying to do). We don't want all our decisions that we made thoughout all 3 games being completely erased. We don't want more questions than we had in the beginning. We just want a real friggin ending. Something simple & satisfying.

Just because you lack the skills to understand and appriciate the story. Just because it didn't live upto your expectation doesn't mean it's "weird cryptic" or has "50 million gaps".

Did we need a major plot twist at the end of Star Wars for it to work? NO! Luke blew up the Death Star, everybody was happy, THE END! We all wanted the same thing for Mass Effect. Did we really need little ghost catalyst dude talking a bunch of stupid psychobabble? HELL NO! Did we need the mass relays to blow up & destroy all the planets we fought so hard to save? HELL NO! That's why nobody likes the ending, even if it did make sense, it just flat out sucked.

Yeah so? What did you expect? How was he goign to defeat the Reapers? A dues ex machina? A war which lasts centuries (that would be one long ass game)? How was he supposed to beat the Reapers?

Ok, you go girl!  I'm done here.  It's obvious that you either just don't get it or you're a Bioware employee trying to cover up the mess you just made. Either way going back & forth with you waste of time.

In the end the only thing that matters is the way I feel. I don't feel like playing the game again. I don't love Mass Effect as much as I did last week. I feel like Bioware kicked me in the nuts. No matter how hard you try to defend the **** sucking ending it's not going to change the way I feel right now.

So go enjoy the ending, all 2 or 3 of you. As for the rest of us...

[ZX12r Ninja]

Steelgrave wrote...

Ok, you go girl!  I'm done here.  It's obvious that you either just don't get it or you're a Bioware employee trying to cover up the mess you just made. Either way going back & forth with you waste of time.

You can't argue with logic and thus you need to revert to basic childish behaviour. Thank you for proving another point.

In the end the only thing that matters is the way I feel. I don't feel like playing the game again. I don't love Mass Effect as much as I did last week. I feel like Bioware kicked me in the nuts. No matter how hard you try to defend the **** sucking ending it's not going to change the way I feel right now.

So go enjoy the ending, all 2 or 3 of you. As for the rest of us...

Saying it's bad and proving it's bad are two different things. I have done my part in proving the counterpart and haven't heard anything from you. If you really think it's so come up with decent arguments and well debate those. But thank you for proving yet a third point and that one is the nay sayers have no idea what they're talking about.

Be bye.

[Creylon]

It's a troll! Don't feed the troll!
Honestly, no one can be as thickheaded as this guy and be genuine...

[Arykel515]

The reapers goal is really something that irks me as its so dumb. You could have left it UNEXPLAINED and it would be better. I mean when sovereign said that their goals were incomprehensible then you could have left it there and not tried to explain it as its beyond human perception, but all we do need to know is basically life as we know it would be destroyed like with the protheans.

What would have made more sense though was the way I thought they may have been going from ME2, where they re purposed the Protheans into the collectors and where using the organic material of the colonists to make that sort of human reaper thing - that our galaxy, and maybe others were kind of farms, where they left the relays left some life to grow and develop then came and harvested or even reaped, the organics, for materials and for use as in the collectors.

To my mind this would have made more sense.

The holes in the ending are what really get my motor going, how similar they are & with no extrapolation of the ramifications of these last actions. I would have liked 2/3 more endings. 1) You cannot win, reapers wipe all out, starting cycle again, 2) A much more positive ending for all the work you have done paying off, some loses/some crew die but theres a chance for the crew to not be stranded in the sticks and Shepard be with them, with/without LI & 3) Reapers win, buuuuuuut through Shepards actions there is something left, so when the cycle comes full circle next time the organics will have a chance to break it.

[Sundance31us]

OP



I agree.

[SyyRaaaN]

Enough. Now I'm gonna try to attack this game. Since people here insist to call this a good story i will tell you why not. Because now I'm gonna treat the ME series story line as something solid, and thus it should survive criticism.

My memory is slightly off; So correct me if I'm wrong in my facts.

Statement 1

The only reason the Reapers couldn't invade the galaxy several years ago was because the signal that altered the Keepers. Thus the Citadel wouldn't open. This is told by Vigil. Ok? I buy this premise of the series. But... In ME3 the Citadel and the Reapers are controlled by this AI-kid, Guardian. I wouldn't consider this a plot hole necessarly. But it needs to be answered. So ok? Why didn't the Guardian open the citadel? Does the Guardian need the keepers to open it? Why? This setup is obviously flawed. The keepers could be killed by some dubious race or whatever. Why on earth would they run with this setup? This premise is just unbeliavable after we learn about the Guardian.

Statement 2

Why didn't the reapers attack the Citadel directly; take it over and shut down the entire relay system? From ME1 i always assumed thats how the Protheans lost the war. Vigil also says so. When the relay system was unusable for them they were on isolated islands in space and thus they couldn't defend themselves. We knew that the Reapers were very, very strong and tough. But they werent undestructable, it even didn't seem as they were undefeatable. So why didn't they strike the citadel? Dunno.

Statement 3

Okay, after the Illusive Man tells the Reapers about the plan of the crucible. They decide to move it to earth... Ok. Again, why not shut down the Mass Relay system. The Reapers obviously felt a threat, thats why they moved it. In ME1 we saw Sovereign tampering with the relay to fix it. Why didn't Harbinger or one of his tools do this? Its almost that they invited Shepard into the room. But then... Why was all the fighting and running necessary to get in there? If the Guardian wanted him there he could have rolled out the carpet. If he didn't want him there, well... SHUT DOWN THE RELAY SYSTEM. Unanswered...

Statement 3,5

All in all, controlling the Mass relay system seemed to be a core strategy of the Reapers. Why didn't they try it again? Sovereign worked for centuries its said to gather allies to find whats wrong with the citadel. I always assumed that the collectors built a new Reaper to try to fix the citadel. But in ME3 the Reapers only care about the citadel in the end. Allthough everything else implied that it was vital for their strategy.

If Sovereign worked for centuries for his plan to work... Why didn't he ditch it when he realised that Harbinger & co only were a couple of years away and gathered with them. Why suicide run into the citadel if there were ways this easy? His failure actually made this cycle aware of the Reapers. Sure, they arent omniscent, but they don't need to be 100% stupid. This premise is broken. Specially since they didnt care about the citadels Mass Relay control.

Statement 4

The crucible. Okay, they built that massive Death Star within a week? That thing was obviously easy to build. It was continued by each race adding a part. But how exactly did the previous races learn about this thing? Did they also know about the Reapers? But i always assumed we, in this cycle, knew about it only because the Protheans tampered with the Keepers and because of the cipher + Sovereign failing with his plan. Or are you telling me that the other destroyed races were able to research and build that thing on isolated islands, with very limited war time resources? Well, i don't know. And its sure as hell not explained. Also, how did the other races know it would work? How did they find out about the Guardian? It implied that snythetics had visited it before. Was it syntehtic races that built it? That means that the dominat race in some cycle was sythetic or? 

Statement 5

Ah, yes, the solution to order vs chaos. Now thats half-baked philosophy for you right there like my dear admiral Adama would say. What was that? So, lets talk with Sovereign.



What? He says that the Reapers are something we cant comprehend and stuff like that... Eh, obviously we can comprehend it. Actually, a 10 year old kid would understand their excistance after we talked to the Guardian. The Reapers are there to break the cycle of syntetic life destroying their biological creators and thus making room for new biological life.

But, Sovereign seems to have a severe contempt towards biological life in the dialogue. Also he calls us rudimentary, an accident, etc. Now, this is a gap. They both talk about biological life being in chaos, and thats why they harvest. But they definitely seem to imply different things. Sovereign says that by using the relays we evolve in a certain pattern. Interesting. Would he be kind enough to tell me in what way? I always assumed that he implied that we expand, thus more indivuals to harvest. But from what i learned in ME3 the Reaper tech allows for different ways to evolve. The Protheans became enslavers and tyrants. While our cycle became cooperative. I'm smelling more half baked philosphy here.

AH YES THE STORY IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE BECAUSE THE REAPERS EXISTANCE IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE TO US.

The only reason its uncomprehendable is the same way 1+1=3 is uncomprehendable. Either there is a error, or info is missing.


I could continue forever.

Modifié par SyyRaaaN, 08 mars 2012 - 11:49 .

[nitefyre410]

SyyRaaaN wrote...

Enough. Now I'm gonna try to attack this game. Since people here insist to call this a good story i will tell you why not. Because now I'm gonna treat the ME series story line as something solid, and thus it should survive criticism.

My memory is slightly off; So correct me if I'm wrong in my facts.

Statement 1

The only reason the Reapers couldn't invade the galaxy several years ago was because the signal that altered the Keepers. Thus the Citadel wouldn't open. This is told by Vigil. Ok? I buy this premise of the series. But... In ME3 the Citadel and the Reapers are controlled by this AI-kid, Guardian. I wouldn't consider this a plot hole necessarly. But it needs to be answered. So ok? Why didn't the Guardian open the citadel? Does the Guardian need the keepers to open it? Why? This setup is obviously flawed. The keepers could be killed by some dubious race or whatever. Why on earth would they run with this setup? This premise is just unbeliavable after we learn about the Guardian.

Statement 2

Why didn't the reapers attack the Citadel directly; take it over and shut down the entire relay system? From ME1 i always assumed thats how the Protheans lost the war. Vigil also says so. When the relay system was unusable for them they were on isolated islands in space and thus they couldn't defend themselves. We knew that the Reapers were very, very strong and tough. But they werent undestructable. So why didn't they strike the citadel? Dunno.

Statement 3

Okay, after the Illusive Man tells the Reapers about the plan of the crucible. They decide to move it to earth... Ok. Again, why not shut down the Mass Relay system. The Reapers obviously felt a threat, thats why they moved it. In ME1 we saw Sovereign tampering with the relay to fix it. Why didn't Harbinger or one of his tools do this? Its almost that they invited Shepard into the room. But then... Why was all the fighting and running necessary to get in there? If the Guardian wanted him there he could have rolled out the carpet. If he didn't want him there, well... SHUT DOWN THE RELAY SYSTEM. Unanswered...

Statement 4

The crucible. Okay, they built that massive Death Star within a week? That thing was obviously easy to build. It was continued by each race adding a part. But how exactly did the previous races learn about this thing? Did they also know about the Reapers? But i always assumed we, in this cycle, knew about it only because the Protheans tampered with the Keepers and because of the cipher + Sovereign failing with his plan. Or are you telling me that the other destroyed races were able to research and build that thing on isolated islands, with very limited war time resources? Well, i don't know. And its sure as hell not explained. Also, how did the other races know it would work? How did they find out about the Guardian? It implied that snythetics had visited it before. Was it syntehtic races that built it? That means that the dominat race in some cycle was sythetic or? 

Statement 5

Ah, yes, the solution to order vs chaos. Now thats half-baked philosophy for you right there like my dear admiral Adama would say. What was that? So, lets talk with Sovereign.



What? He says that the Reapers are something we cant comprehend and stuff like that... Eh, obviously we can comprehend it. Actually, a 10 year old kid would understand their excistance after we talked to the Guardian. The Reapers are there to break the cycle of syntetic life destroying their biological creators and thus making room for new biological life.

But, Sovereign seems to have a severe contempt towards biological life in the dialogue. Also he calls us rudimentary, an accident, etc. Now, this is a gap. They both talk about biological life being in chaos, and thats why they harvest. But they definitely seem to imply different things. Sovereign says that by using the relays we evolve in a certain pattern. Interesting. Would he be kind enough to tell me in what way? I always assumed that he implied that we expand, thus more indivuals to harvest. But from what i learned in ME3 the Reaper tech allows for different ways to evolve. The Protheans became enslavers and tyrants. While our cycle became cooperative. I'm smelling more half baked philosphy here.

AH YES THE STORY IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE BECAUSE THE REAPERS EXISTANCE IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE TO US.

The only reason its uncomprehendable is the same way 1+1=3 is uncomprehendable. Either there is a error, or info is missing.


I could continue forever.

 


*applauses* ... all that needs to be said.

[AnttiV]

....
The choices you are presented with aren't as easy anymore and for once the choice made me think about possible consequences. In my first playthrough it wasn't an easy pick anymore. Do I wan't the Geth or the Quarians and what effects is this goign to have on the final fight? The Geth platforms are obvious fighters and their military strength and strategies are unmatched, that is what I need. But on the other hand I have the Quarians and Tali my friend, I can't let them down. What do I pick? The game is full of choices like this one, hard choices which can't be defined as good or bad (paragon or renegade) and have immidiate consequences beyond your control.
....

I'm too angry and disappointed to comment properly, but this is really something I need to address. Yes, the game is full of choices like that. BUT (and it is a big but), almost always before and even on that exact choice you quoted, the story had a third option. For those that had given it enough, earned points in the eyes of the galaxy (reputation). You especially DID NOT need to choose between Geth and Quarians. With enough Paragon points, you could have them BOTH. The Geth even helped the Quarians to colonize Rannoch afterwards.

That's my point really. The game/story let's you "work" towards the ultimate good ending, having united the entire galaxy and having all races aboard and allied. Turian, Asari, Quarians, Geth.. even Rachni.

BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER. No matter how hard you try, no matter how "good" you play you ALWAYS get kicked in the balls.

Why does the story/game allow me to select all these choices, play differently, make hard/emotional choices when NONE of it REALLY matters. Save ALL the races and unite ALL the galaxy, for what? An amount equal to X in a statistical list of abstract "War Assests", easily remedied by a couple of hours of multiplayer. (Playing 100% paragon and uniting ALL races is about the same as giving the finger to everyone and playing multiplayer a day to get galactic readiness up.)

And still, NONE of that matters, really. You're still kicked in the nuts, as much as the ending is considered.

The endings make it pointless, the whole story. It invalidates EVERYTHING you did.

It is quite telling if "and then she woke up", would've been a better ending... And it would. 

[Maxunit]

^This.

I am no longer in the mood to re-play any of the Mass Effect games at all. I will stick to the ME3 Multiplayer, because it is a load of fun with my mates.

Why should I put effort into another Shepard, if I know, that my Shepard either dies or that there is a really uncertain rendering showing me Shepard's body in the rubble and showing 1 single short sign of life? I mean, that can be his/her last breath before he/she dies. Still no clarification, that Shepard survives.

No meaning for me to put a lot of work (gameplay) into a character, who is doomed to die.

As I said in other topic:

The story from the Mass Effect Franchise is awesome (and heart breaking in terms of the choices in ME3), except the endings. The last...10? minutes of gameplay felt like..being made up in a hurry instead of being well thought out. Like the Story Writer was writing them down at something like 5 AM and was getting tired.

[Raxxman]

SyyRaaaN wrote...

Enough. Now I'm gonna try to attack this game. Since people here insist to call this a good story i will tell you why not. Because now I'm gonna treat the ME series story line as something solid, and thus it should survive criticism.

My memory is slightly off; So correct me if I'm wrong in my facts.

Statement 1

The only reason the Reapers couldn't invade the galaxy several years ago was because the signal that altered the Keepers. Thus the Citadel wouldn't open. This is told by Vigil. Ok? I buy this premise of the series. But... In ME3 the Citadel and the Reapers are controlled by this AI-kid, Guardian. I wouldn't consider this a plot hole necessarly. But it needs to be answered. So ok? Why didn't the Guardian open the citadel? Does the Guardian need the keepers to open it? Why? This setup is obviously flawed. The keepers could be killed by some dubious race or whatever. Why on earth would they run with this setup? This premise is just unbeliavable after we learn about the Guardian.

Statement 2

Why didn't the reapers attack the Citadel directly; take it over and shut down the entire relay system? From ME1 i always assumed thats how the Protheans lost the war. Vigil also says so. When the relay system was unusable for them they were on isolated islands in space and thus they couldn't defend themselves. We knew that the Reapers were very, very strong and tough. But they werent undestructable, it even didn't seem as they were undefeatable. So why didn't they strike the citadel? Dunno.

Statement 3

Okay, after the Illusive Man tells the Reapers about the plan of the crucible. They decide to move it to earth... Ok. Again, why not shut down the Mass Relay system. The Reapers obviously felt a threat, thats why they moved it. In ME1 we saw Sovereign tampering with the relay to fix it. Why didn't Harbinger or one of his tools do this? Its almost that they invited Shepard into the room. But then... Why was all the fighting and running necessary to get in there? If the Guardian wanted him there he could have rolled out the carpet. If he didn't want him there, well... SHUT DOWN THE RELAY SYSTEM. Unanswered...

Statement 3,5

All in all, controlling the Mass relay system seemed to be a core strategy of the Reapers. Why didn't they try it again? Sovereign worked for centuries its said to gather allies to find whats wrong with the citadel. I always assumed that the collectors built a new Reaper to try to fix the citadel. But in ME3 the Reapers only care about the citadel in the end. Allthough everything else implied that it was vital for their strategy.

If Sovereign worked for centuries for his plan to work... Why didn't he ditch it when he realised that Harbinger & co only were a couple of years away and gathered with them. Why suicide run into the citadel if there were ways this easy? His failure actually made this cycle aware of the Reapers. Sure, they arent omniscent, but they don't need to be 100% stupid. This premise is broken. Specially since they didnt care about the citadels Mass Relay control.

Statement 4

The crucible. Okay, they built that massive Death Star within a week? That thing was obviously easy to build. It was continued by each race adding a part. But how exactly did the previous races learn about this thing? Did they also know about the Reapers? But i always assumed we, in this cycle, knew about it only because the Protheans tampered with the Keepers and because of the cipher + Sovereign failing with his plan. Or are you telling me that the other destroyed races were able to research and build that thing on isolated islands, with very limited war time resources? Well, i don't know. And its sure as hell not explained. Also, how did the other races know it would work? How did they find out about the Guardian? It implied that snythetics had visited it before. Was it syntehtic races that built it? That means that the dominat race in some cycle was sythetic or? 

Statement 5

Ah, yes, the solution to order vs chaos. Now thats half-baked philosophy for you right there like my dear admiral Adama would say. What was that? So, lets talk with Sovereign.



What? He says that the Reapers are something we cant comprehend and stuff like that... Eh, obviously we can comprehend it. Actually, a 10 year old kid would understand their excistance after we talked to the Guardian. The Reapers are there to break the cycle of syntetic life destroying their biological creators and thus making room for new biological life.

But, Sovereign seems to have a severe contempt towards biological life in the dialogue. Also he calls us rudimentary, an accident, etc. Now, this is a gap. They both talk about biological life being in chaos, and thats why they harvest. But they definitely seem to imply different things. Sovereign says that by using the relays we evolve in a certain pattern. Interesting. Would he be kind enough to tell me in what way? I always assumed that he implied that we expand, thus more indivuals to harvest. But from what i learned in ME3 the Reaper tech allows for different ways to evolve. The Protheans became enslavers and tyrants. While our cycle became cooperative. I'm smelling more half baked philosphy here.

AH YES THE STORY IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE BECAUSE THE REAPERS EXISTANCE IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE TO US.

The only reason its uncomprehendable is the same way 1+1=3 is uncomprehendable. Either there is a error, or info is missing.


I could continue forever.

Is it bad that I think you're going easy on it?

The problem is trying to inject philosophical domga 2/3rds of the way into it. Battlestar suffered terribly for this, with its ever watered down premise.

Whatever Mass Effect tried to start out as, what it ended up was popcorn.

[NubXL]

I wouldn't have changed much about them.  Just some brief shots of how the destruction of the Reapers/relays had effected the other alien homeworlds would have satisfied me.  I can forgive the Normandy passing through a relay for no apparent reason as they explode, as goofy as that is.  I would have preferred they crash on Earth, but it's not a big grievance.

Maybe throw something in there for the LI fanatics.  It's not like they're being unreasonable in such a request.  BioWare put plenty of emphasis on LI's, so it's hard to see how they couldn't have expected a backlash.

Also, do those 3 black and white shots of Joker, Anderson, and Liara ever change?  Particularly the Liara one.  She was my LI, so it's expected, but every ending I've seen has her in it.  I would think that it would be whoever the person romanced.

[SyyRaaaN]

Raxxman wrote...

Is it bad that I think you're going easy on it?

The problem is trying to inject philosophical domga 2/3rds of the way into it. Battlestar suffered terribly for this, with its ever watered down premise.

Whatever Mass Effect tried to start out as, what it ended up was popcorn.

Actually if i understand you correctly. I did a post where I made a point of the game becoming an action-sci fi story and thus it should continued that path, instead of trying a half-assed return to first story arc which was bound to fail because of balblaba.

Modifié par SyyRaaaN, 09 mars 2012 - 12:43 .

[PinkysPain]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

It seems in this day and age of mindless shooters like Duke Nukem and Serious Sam people don't seem to appriciate a good story anymore.

I like good stories, but all other things being equal I don't think bad endings add anything to a story. It reminds me of high school mandatory literature reading, high literature == bad ending (assuming it has a plot to begin with of course). Barf.

What's wrong with a good ending? Especially in a computer game ... it establishes player agency. I think that was what it was all about in the end. Mac showed the players that in the end player agency was bull****, only the writer should matter, he won ... the players lost. GG, Mac.

People have compared the ending to Gurren Lagann before, that show did it right ... bittersweet ending as far as the protags went (heroic sacrifice, love interest dies etc) but in the end they didn't let themselves be stopped by inevitability of defeat or disaster ... they simply overcame it and had the confidence they would overcome it in the future.

A lot more people rewatch the finale of Gurren Lagann than there will be people replaying ME3.

PS. SyyRaaaN makes some good points as well ... a problem with forcing a new writer to write sequels is that writers have HUGE egos and they can not abide being forced into an established plot, they will try to retcon to avoid going down paths others set out for them. Once again, GG, Mac.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 09 mars 2012 - 12:50 .

[bpzrn]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I'm extremely sorry we actually expected more than three exactly the same, crappy endings...

But aside from that, you make excellent points.

Yep, the endings are not consistant with the previous 2 games o rmuch of the third game. Give us a well thought out ending that fits the game and games before it and the game is a "10", up until the ending I was very happy, but the ending(s) really mad eme angry and unlike ME2 (played it 6 times start to finsh) I wont put this in my XBOX ever again nor would I by another BW game with out reading these forums, when 80-90% of the posts are dissapointed it speaks for it self.

[ZX12r Ninja]

Yet another who didn't pay attention.

SyyRaaaN wrote...

Enough. Now I'm gonna try to attack this game. Since people here insist to call this a good story i will tell you why not. Because now I'm gonna treat the ME series story line as something solid, and thus it should survive criticism.

My memory is slightly off; So correct me if I'm wrong in my facts.

Statement 1

The only reason the Reapers couldn't invade the galaxy several years ago was because the signal that altered the Keepers. Thus the Citadel wouldn't open. This is told by Vigil. Ok? I buy this premise of the series. But... In ME3 the Citadel and the Reapers are controlled by this AI-kid, Guardian. I wouldn't consider this a plot hole necessarly. But it needs to be answered. So ok? Why didn't the Guardian open the citadel? Does the Guardian need the keepers to open it? Why? This setup is obviously flawed. The keepers could be killed by some dubious race or whatever. Why on earth would they run with this setup? This premise is just unbeliavable after we learn about the Guardian.

Sovereign is the vanguard, it keeps tabs on the galaxy and judges when the time is right. The Guardian AI , however impressive, cannot see anything beyond it's immidiate area. The Keepers provide upkeep for the Citadel. It is possible the Guardian goes into a sleep mode to conserve energy and the Keepers wake it and prepare The Citadel when the time is right. Also it is possible that Sovereign communicates with the Citadel through radio but the Prothean scientists disrupted the wireless communication lines and thus Sovreign had to dock with the Citadel to make a hard connection and notify the AI.

Statement 2

Why didn't the reapers attack the Citadel directly; take it over and shut down the entire relay system? From ME1 i always assumed thats how the Protheans lost the war. Vigil also says so. When the relay system was unusable for them they were on isolated islands in space and thus they couldn't defend themselves. We knew that the Reapers were very, very strong and tough. But they werent undestructable, it even didn't seem as they were undefeatable. So why didn't they strike the citadel? Dunno.

It's obvious they had taken an intrest in humanity. As it turns out the Citadel wasn't a direct threath because it is under the guardians control. The homeworlds are the ones you should go after first and as shown in the game it's a damn good strategy because attacking the homeworlds disorganized the complete race.

Statement 3

Okay, after the Illusive Man tells the Reapers about the plan of the crucible. They decide to move it to earth... Ok. Again, why not shut down the Mass Relay system. The Reapers obviously felt a threat, thats why they moved it. In ME1 we saw Sovereign tampering with the relay to fix it. Why didn't Harbinger or one of his tools do this? Its almost that they invited Shepard into the room. But then... Why was all the fighting and running necessary to get in there? If the Guardian wanted him there he could have rolled out the carpet. If he didn't want him there, well... SHUT DOWN THE RELAY SYSTEM. Unanswered...

I don't remember sovereign doing anyhting of the sorts to be honest. Why they moved it to Earth is explained in the game, because the brunt of the Reaper fleet is there. What better way to protect it then to surround it with masses of Reapers? Shutting down the relays works both ways and too be honest I'm not sure it can be done, it's never shown and seeing the humongous amounts of energy flowing through a relay I don't think it's that simple.

Statement 3,5

All in all, controlling the Mass relay system seemed to be a core strategy of the Reapers. Why didn't they try it again? Sovereign worked for centuries its said to gather allies to find whats wrong with the citadel. I always assumed that the collectors built a new Reaper to try to fix the citadel. But in ME3 the Reapers only care about the citadel in the end. Allthough everything else implied that it was vital for their strategy.

If Sovereign worked for centuries for his plan to work... Why didn't he ditch it when he realised that Harbinger & co only were a couple of years away and gathered with them. Why suicide run into the citadel if there were ways this easy? His failure actually made this cycle aware of the Reapers. Sure, they arent omniscent, but they don't need to be 100% stupid. This premise is broken. Specially since they didnt care about the citadels Mass Relay control.

The strategy of the Reapers is to overwhelm their targets with numbers, size and force. Controlling the mass relay network isn't mentioned anywhere. I don't think the relay network can be controlled because it just is and it just does.

Statement 4

The crucible. Okay, they built that massive Death Star within a week? That thing was obviously easy to build. It was continued by each race adding a part. But how exactly did the previous races learn about this thing? Did they also know about the Reapers? But i always assumed we, in this cycle, knew about it only because the Protheans tampered with the Keepers and because of the cipher + Sovereign failing with his plan. Or are you telling me that the other destroyed races were able to research and build that thing on isolated islands, with very limited war time resources? Well, i don't know. And its sure as hell not explained. Also, how did the other races know it would work? How did they find out about the Guardian? It implied that snythetics had visited it before. Was it syntehtic races that built it? That means that the dominat race in some cycle was sythetic or?

The plans were probably made up over millions of years. Some might have been way more advanced then the Protheans and knew/understood things we didn't. Some might have gotten as close as Shepard did but just didn't make it. Over millions of years information just compiled and they were able to make this. How and why will probably never be explained specifically as it will span a story over millions of years.

Statement 5

Ah, yes, the solution to order vs chaos. Now thats half-baked philosophy for you right there like my dear admiral Adama would say. What was that? So, lets talk with Sovereign.



What? He says that the Reapers are something we cant comprehend and stuff like that... Eh, obviously we can comprehend it. Actually, a 10 year old kid would understand their excistance after we talked to the Guardian. The Reapers are there to break the cycle of syntetic life destroying their biological creators and thus making room for new biological life.

But, Sovereign seems to have a severe contempt towards biological life in the dialogue. Also he calls us rudimentary, an accident, etc. Now, this is a gap. They both talk about biological life being in chaos, and thats why they harvest. But they definitely seem to imply different things. Sovereign says that by using the relays we evolve in a certain pattern. Interesting. Would he be kind enough to tell me in what way? I always assumed that he implied that we expand, thus more indivuals to harvest. But from what i learned in ME3 the Reaper tech allows for different ways to evolve. The Protheans became enslavers and tyrants. While our cycle became cooperative. I'm smelling more half baked philosphy here.

AH YES THE STORY IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE BECAUSE THE REAPERS EXISTANCE IS UNCOMPREHENDABLE TO US.

The only reason its uncomprehendable is the same way 1+1=3 is uncomprehendable. Either there is a error, or info is missing.


I could continue forever.

Another thing you misunderstood. The AI and the Reapers believe they're bringing order to chaos and believe they're doing what's right for the galaxy and for organics. Obviously they don't have high regards of us, in such that they even define us as chaos which needs sorting. the whole ending is about Shepard showing the AI that it isn't so. It's never said it is so it's just said that this is what the Reapers and the AI believe in and why they're doing what they do.

First of Sovereign and Harbinger were acting like they're all powerfull machines and the galaxy didn't stand a chance. Spreading doubt and fear is one of their primary strategies. Why would Sovereign tell specific details about what they're doing to Shepard? Just feed him some nonsense to propegate fear. Shepard says this himself: "Maybe our enemies aren't as allpowerfull as they want us to believe" or something in the sorts. If you tell your enemies all the details of your plan then you wouldn't have much of a war.

Second it's obvious Guardian didn't think highly of organic life. He thought we were dumb and needed this cycle thing to preserve us and prevent us from wiping ourselves out. Heck they can go as far as mindcontrolling organics and even manipulate organics on a genetic basis to alter/create species they wan't. It's obvious they see us as puppets. It's possible they thought so low of us that they believed we wouldn't understand anyway so why bother to begin with?


Do you have any other questions?

Modifié par ZX12r Ninja, 09 mars 2012 - 01:27 .

[SyyRaaaN]

ZX12r Ninja wrote...

Yet another who didn't pay attention.



I don't remember sovereign doing anyhting of the sorts to be honest. Why they moved it to Earth is explained in the game, because the brunt of the Reaper fleet is there. What better way to protect it then to surround it with masses of Reapers? Shutting down the relays works both ways and too be honest I'm not sure it can be done, it's never shown and seeing the humongous amounts of energy flowing through a relay I don't think it's that simple.

The strategy of the Reapers is to overwhelm their targets with numbers, size and force. Controlling the mass relay network isn't mentioned anywhere. I don't think the relay network can be controlled because it just is and it just does.

Do you have any other questions?

Didnt pay attention? Dude, dont try to bully me around

Around 3:25 and forward please. I interpret that as a core strategy and the real reason why they lost - along with losing their leaders. He also says that we cant comprehend it; at yet, it was very easy to comprehend or? Rofl.


Also at around 2:00; Sovereign docking: 

"Didn't pay attention" Yeah.


Other questions? Nope, you haven't played ME1 or you simply don't remember it.

Modifié par SyyRaaaN, 09 mars 2012 - 01:36 .

[ZX12r Ninja]

SyyRaaaN wrote...

Didnt pay attention? Dude, dont try to bully me around

Around 3:25 and forward please. I interpret that as a core strategy and the real reason why they lost - along with losing their leaders. He also says that we cant comprehend it; at yet, it was very easy to comprehend or? Rofl.

Yeah okay, that was the original strategy because they come through the Citadel. If you enter the system through the Citadel you might as wel start there. Because of the Prothean scientists they couldn't come through the Citadel anymore. What I said still holds true because Vigil says the Reapers wen't after the heads of their goverments. As shown in ME3 the Citadel en te Council doesn't have much power when all the homeworld are attacked. So attacking Earth is still the primary target.

SyyRaaaN wrote...

Also at around 2:00; Sovereign docking: 

"Didn't pay attention" Yeah.

Yeah and then it gets shotdown before it can complete the task. Else the Citadel relay would open.

Modifié par ZX12r Ninja, 09 mars 2012 - 01:35 .

[ZX12r Ninja]

PinkysPain wrote...
I like good stories, but all other things being equal I don't think bad endings add anything to a story. It reminds me of high school mandatory literature reading, high literature == bad ending (assuming it has a plot to begin with of course). Barf.

What's wrong with a good ending? Especially in a computer game ... it establishes player agency. I think that was what it was all about in the end. Mac showed the players that in the end player agency was bull****, only the writer should matter, he won ... the players lost. GG, Mac.

People have compared the ending to Gurren Lagann before, that show did it right ... bittersweet ending as far as the protags went (heroic sacrifice, love interest dies etc) but in the end they didn't let themselves be stopped by inevitability of defeat or disaster ... they simply overcame it and had the confidence they would overcome it in the future.

A lot more people rewatch the finale of Gurren Lagann than there will be people replaying ME3.

PS. SyyRaaaN makes some good points as well ... a problem with forcing a new writer to write sequels is that writers have HUGE egos and they can not abide being forced into an established plot, they will try to retcon to avoid going down paths others set out for them. Once again, GG, Mac.

So it's not a bad story, infact it's quite a good story. It just didn't live upto your expectations and wishes. That's something completely different.