46 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil_medved]

Fleet of Reapers and functional hub of Mass-relay network is only hope of this galaxy to fast rebuild as i see it. Though game aint telling us nothing about green ending consequences, it can give galaxy great possibilities. If Reaper-Shepard is still has same mind (Which he probably is, he wouldnt force reapers to leave Earth if he was cata's buddy in this matter), and if ReapShep can turn their indoctrination signals off - nuff said. Reapers fastes ships in the galaxy with almost unlimited fuel, maybe even capable to evacuate Quarian, Krogan and Turians back to their worlds, clean their own mess and construct new mass relays there. I hated Illusive man, sure, but he appears to be right this one time. "Red" ending end up in thousands of dark years for all races. What do you think guys?

[KrakenGreyjoy]

I can get on board with that. I'm fine with Shep dying or "assimilating" but I'm not cool with the relays destruction.

[LordHelfort]

I think the actual canon ending is entirely irrelevant, the next ME will be so far forward they'll all just be legends anyways.

That being said, it'll be the Killing the Reapers one. Most people will likely be too attached to Shep to want him to die. Just my 2 cents though.

[hismastersvoice]

Evil_medved wrote...

 Reapers fastes ships in the galaxy with almost unlimited fuel, maybe even capable to evacuate Quarian, Krogan and Turians back to their worlds, clean their own mess and construct new mass relays there.

Reapers still move at FTL speed when not using the relays AFAIK. That means they'd still spend thouasands of years travelling to systems that should have a relay to construct it there. Not really that relevant for all the Turians eating their boots on Earth.

[Evil_medved]

Think about it - ReapShep can use Reaper fleet to police galaxy, making sure something like Krogan rebellions or Rachni wars will never happen again. Being an immortal, ReapShep also can upload himself on some mobile platform or even implant some organic to control, like Sovereign controlled Saren, so he would not remain bodyless.

hismastersvoice wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...

 Reapers
fastes ships in the galaxy with almost unlimited fuel, maybe even
capable to evacuate Quarian, Krogan and Turians back to their worlds,
clean their own mess and construct new mass relays there.

Reapers
still move at FTL speed when not using the relays AFAIK. That means
they'd still spend thouasands of years travelling to systems that should
have a relay to construct it there. Not really that relevant for all
the Turians eating their boots on Earth.

Its not like there any other options, they are still fastes. Only year to fly from dark space, not bad i say.

Modifié par Evil_medved, 08 mars 2012 - 01:56 .

[LordHelfort]

I believe the point of the endings was to clear the way for ME4 in the future. ReapShep playing Intergalatic Policeman is going to...complicate that extensively.

[elferin91]

agree
altough it would be fun if they also added paragon/renegade score in it also
paragon -> reapshep help rebuild the relays and then leaves/destroys each reaper
renegade ->also rebuilds relays but ensure human dominance

[golyoscsapagy]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...

 Reapers fastes ships in the galaxy with almost unlimited fuel, maybe even capable to evacuate Quarian, Krogan and Turians back to their worlds, clean their own mess and construct new mass relays there.

Reapers still move at FTL speed when not using the relays AFAIK. That means they'd still spend thouasands of years travelling to systems that should have a relay to construct it there. Not really that relevant for all the Turians eating their boots on Earth.

I think you are wrong.

They were offline in their hidey hole (which is intergalactic space according to ME1 - referred often with 'black' so it should be out of the halo of the milky way).
You took down the citadel relay which could pull them in.
Yet they were here here in relatively short order (3 years or so?). The distance they travelled should be around 0,25-1 milky way radius depending on their exact hiding place. So that comes to 8 ly per hour speed on average. That's pretty much respectable.

Modifié par golyoscsapagy, 08 mars 2012 - 02:01 .

[Evil_medved]

elferin91 wrote...

agree
altough it would be fun if they also added paragon/renegade score in it also
paragon -> reapshep help rebuild the relays and then leaves/destroys each reaper
renegade ->also rebuilds relays but ensure human dominance

Yeah. Actually all endings could use that.

Modifié par Evil_medved, 08 mars 2012 - 02:02 .

[vivanto]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Reapers still move at FTL speed when not using the relays AFAIK. That means they'd still spend thouasands of years travelling to systems that should have a relay to construct it there. Not really that relevant for all the Turians eating their boots on Earth.

With those FTL drives, they reached the border of the galaxy in ~2 yeras (ME1 -> ME2 difference) and after Arrival DLC, they reached the nearest system with another Mass Relay in 6 months + had time to wipe out a few batarian colonies (ME2 -> ME3 time difference).

That's why I dont get all the rage on the stranded Normandy, they could be rescued in just a few years time.

[Evil_medved]

vivanto wrote...

hismastersvoice wrote...

Reapers still move at FTL speed when not using the relays AFAIK. That means they'd still spend thouasands of years travelling to systems that should have a relay to construct it there. Not really that relevant for all the Turians eating their boots on Earth.

With those FTL drives, they reached the border of the galaxy in ~2 yeras (ME1 -> ME2 difference) and after Arrival DLC, they reached the nearest system with another Mass Relay in 6 months + had time to wipe out a few batarian colonies (ME2 -> ME3 time difference).

That's why I dont get all the rage on the stranded Normandy, they could be rescued in just a few years time.

Exactly. Reapers themselves or their fleets of smaller ships can scout all nerby systems.

And, its unpleasant, yea, but reapers also have legions of husks. if we can make them work they'll rebuild Earth in ten years.

[vivanto]

Evil_medved wrote...
And, its unpleasant, yea, but reapers also have legions of husks. if we can make them work they'll rebuild Earth in ten years.

Are the husks actually controllable? I always imagined them as just frenzied "combatants" incapable of following strategic orders, hence why they're always used as cannon fodder.

Haven't played ME3 yet (friday unlock in EU), so don't know if any of the new husk variants already answer my question.

[Evil_medved]

vivanto wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...
And, its unpleasant, yea, but reapers also have legions of husks. if we can make them work they'll rebuild Earth in ten years.

Are the husks actually controllable? I always imagined them as just frenzied "combatants" incapable of following strategic orders, hence why they're always used as cannon fodder.

Haven't played ME3 yet (friday unlock in EU), so don't know if any of the new husk variants already answer my question.

They are defianly use tactics, especially turian ones. And remember collectors - prothean husks. They were pretty smart. And with Shepard himself ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL of dem bastards they'll do just fine.

Modifié par Evil_medved, 08 mars 2012 - 02:25 .

[hismastersvoice]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

I think you are wrong.

They were offline in their hidey hole (which is intergalactic space according to ME1 - referred often with 'black' so it should be out of the halo of the milky way).
You took down the citadel relay which could pull them in.
Yet they were here here in relatively short order (3 years or so?). The distance they travelled should be around 0,25-1 milky way radius depending on their exact hiding place. So that comes to 8 ly per hour speed on average. That's pretty much respectable.

Depends on how far into dark space they slept, or rather how far from the nearest functional relay they were at the end of Arrival. But yeah, they could travel faster than what human FTL drives were capable of.

Then again, if you destroy the Reapers you've got all those intact shells just lying all over Earth. They built the Big Bad Doomsday Device in a matter of months. At that point, getting a Reaper shell operational isn't much of a strech and if they travel so fast, who needs the relays anyway?

[Evil_medved]

hismastersvoice wrote...

golyoscsapagy wrote...

I think you are wrong.

They were offline in their hidey hole (which is intergalactic space according to ME1 - referred often with 'black' so it should be out of the halo of the milky way).
You took down the citadel relay which could pull them in.
Yet they were here here in relatively short order (3 years or so?). The distance they travelled should be around 0,25-1 milky way radius depending on their exact hiding place. So that comes to 8 ly per hour speed on average. That's pretty much respectable.

Depends on how far into dark space they slept, or rather how far from the nearest functional relay they were at the end of Arrival. But yeah, they could travel faster than what human FTL drives were capable of.

Then again, if you destroy the Reapers you've got all those intact shells just lying all over Earth. They built the Big Bad Doomsday Device in a matter of months. At that point, getting a Reaper shell operational isn't much of a strech and if they travel so fast, who needs the relays anyway?

I kinda doubt that, not much left of earth by that point, and rebuilding reaper to manual control will be a lot of fuss. Don't forget that even dead reapers emit indoctrination signal, and if the don't, it means their core is dead, and i cant imagine that thing replaced with scrap from Earth. Also, speed won't give you much. Citadel is gone, and with Reapers dead, recreating mass-relay technology from nothing will take hundreds of years.

Reapers themselves on the other hand can fast (relatively) travel to far systems and build new relays there, connecting them to citadel.

[Wazooty]

I want them to wrap this story off in a GOOD way before they even talk about how it will influence future games.

I want my little blue babies.

[golyoscsapagy]

Evil_medved wrote...
I kinda doubt that, not much left of earth by that point, and rebuilding reaper to manual control will be a lot of fuss. Don't forget that even dead reapers emit indoctrination signal, and if the don't, it means their core is dead, and i cant imagine that thing replaced with scrap from Earth. Also, speed won't give you much. Citadel is gone, and with Reapers dead, recreating mass-relay technology from nothing will take hundreds of years.

Reapers themselves on the other hand can fast (relatively) travel to far systems and build new relays there, connecting them to citadel.

Nah, it's more about the magnitude of the speed. From what I got (can't put a thumb on it where exactly, maybe it's just the impression) that organic ships are slower but by not much. Definitely not with a magnitude or more. So we are talking about several lightyears in an hour. That's awesome speed and colonizing even the whole milky way is possible (even with the highest estimation of 120k lys it would only take 13 years to cross the milky way with 1ly/h speed. That's plausible even for a human).

Also I think humans invented stuff to communicate near real time. If information exchange is possible instantly I don't think it's really that bad. And I think at this point relays were just a matter of convenience (meaning they only didn't make **** like this because it was pointless - there were relays everywhere).

I would say in a month or so relays or something like that will be up and running. You really think batarians would dismiss an opportunity like this?

Modifié par golyoscsapagy, 08 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[Evil_medved]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...
I kinda doubt that, not much left of earth by that point, and rebuilding reaper to manual control will be a lot of fuss. Don't forget that even dead reapers emit indoctrination signal, and if the don't, it means their core is dead, and i cant imagine that thing replaced with scrap from Earth. Also, speed won't give you much. Citadel is gone, and with Reapers dead, recreating mass-relay technology from nothing will take hundreds of years.

Reapers themselves on the other hand can fast (relatively) travel to far systems and build new relays there, connecting them to citadel.

Nah, it's more about the magnitude of the speed. From what I got (can't put a thumb on it where exactly, maybe it's just the impression) that organic ships are slower but by not much. Definitely not with a magnitude or more. So we are talking about several lightyears in an hour. That's awesome speed and colonizing even the whole milky way is possible (even with the highest estimation of 120k lys it would only take 13 years to cross the milky way with 1ly/h speed. That's plausible even for a human).

Also I think humans invented stuff to communicate near real time. If information exchange is possible instantly I don't think it's really that bad. And I think at this point relays were just a matter of convenience (meaning they only didn't make **** like this because it was pointless - there were relays everywhere).

I would say in a month or so relays or something like that will be up and running. You really think batarians would dismiss an opportunity like this?

Big question is this - will mass relay network even work without main hub - citadel?
And only way to save it is "control".

By the way, you saw yourself what left of Earth. Few barely alive military men, without any resources or scientific base, cut off from all colonies. Even with all help of aliens, who will die out of starvation in couple of month, they need to build relays on both ends, right? You cant build one and just jump in nowhere, so it will be years to make one connection one way or another.

With Reapers rebuiling Earth and creating relays, humanity and aliens can focus on survival.

[KadianK]

LordHelfort wrote...

I believe the point of the endings was to clear the way for ME4 in the future. ReapShep playing Intergalatic Policeman is going to...complicate that extensively.

Not everyone choose that ending. It wouldn't make sense.
All relays being destoryed, how the hell does that "clear the way" for ME4... They wont be no ME4 without relays, they'll have to go into the past.

[Evil_medved]

KadianK wrote...

LordHelfort wrote...

I believe the point of the endings was to clear the way for ME4 in the future. ReapShep playing Intergalatic Policeman is going to...complicate that extensively.

Not everyone choose that ending. It wouldn't make sense.
All relays being destoryed, how the hell does that "clear the way" for ME4... They wont be no ME4 without relays, they'll have to go into the past.

And i bet my boots Reapers is the only force in universe that can build relays at maximum speed.

They are also need to be redeemed. They are not main villians, they are tools. And since they are sentient AI, we even can call them slaves of the catalyst. Properly reprogrammed by ReapShep they can be best defenders galaxy ever seen.

[HaiknEdge]

Yeah, for the entire series up till the last 10 minutes, the Reapers were the BBEG. Then, the Catalyst shows up, and suddenly, the Reapers are the misunderstood slave of the real evil mastermind, the fairy child who is the actual BBEG...

Seriously, at this point, I'd love for the Reapers to end up like the Geth.

[Xellith]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...

 Reapers fastes ships in the galaxy with almost unlimited fuel, maybe even capable to evacuate Quarian, Krogan and Turians back to their worlds, clean their own mess and construct new mass relays there.

Reapers still move at FTL speed when not using the relays AFAIK. That means they'd still spend thouasands of years travelling to systems that should have a relay to construct it there. Not really that relevant for all the Turians eating their boots on Earth.

The reapers are already everywhere.  They wouldnt have to travel since different groups of reapers could make relays in their particular region.  There wouldnt be any need for any long distance trips apart from material transportation.

[Parrk]

I do not agree with that control ending should be cannon, or that it represents the "good" ending at all.

I support organic-synthetic assimilation, and here's why:

I chose the Geth over the Quarians because they were right. The Geth did not desire conflict. They never attacked except in instances where it was the only means of self-preservation. The quarians chose their destiny through a litany of short-sighted and selfish choices. Their entire culture was based on whining and finger pointing They could easily have chosen a new home even before their immune systems were compromised by hundreds of years in sterile environments, but they chose not to. They could have chosen peaceful cohabitation and would have been allowed to return to their home planet, but they chose not to.

The Asari could have engaged the entire galaxy in a level of scientific development and discovery which would have culminated in the reapers having gotten their asses handed to them as soon as they showed up in known space. Instead they chose to hide this wondrous thing they found, this object that could have acted as the key that would unlock ongoing survival for organic species indefinitely.

Instead they hid it away and only capitalized on it to the extent of a few meager scientific advancements, as had other greedy and self-interest species in similar instances time and again over the past millions of years.

Those species that are prominent in Shepard's cycle are dramatically less advanced then those from the cycle directly previous.

Organics are broken.

It must be said that it is not Shepard who saved the galaxy and enables the continuity of organic life, but rather it is Shepard and EDI. Without EDI Shepard would have failed. She is the single most important member of the crew many times over. Shepard would have died to a hanger venting on the IM base. Shepard would have died to a destroyer in London. The collectors would possibly have proven impossible to defeat prior to the completion of the human reaper in ME2 as well if not for EDI.

Even before being granted individuality by Legion's upload, the Geth have spent hundreds of years developing a culture where runtime processes deal with each other in a manne that can be described as dispassionate interest in the welfare of all. Though they are incapable of emotion as organics know it, they are continuously self-evolving, and unlike organics, they are moving in the right direction.

We could debate whether synthetics could every really be "alive", but my feeling is that saying they cannot requires adoption of an unnecessarily narrow definition of what "life" is. They lack the ability to experience chemical-reaction-induced-sensory-input-resulting-in-conclusions-not-supported-by-logic. Even that though can be synthesized to the point that a series of conclusions to a control group of stimuli could not be differentiated from that of an organic. This would require little more than an on-board chemistry analyzer with some sort of pseudo-random component. Such a thing is certainly within the grasp of the science of their age.

This is why the destroy technology option is clearly the "bad" one in my view. It dooms those who enable organic continuity thereby underscoring the very qualities that prevented organics from ever being ready for the reapers to begin with. It represents more of the same brokenness that has always held sapiens back.

A large portion (those who can afford to) of organics are part machine already.

Without EDI victory was not possible (or at least far far less likely by several degrees of magnitude).

Organics and synthetics both benefit tremendously from the conversion. The conversion itself is portrayed as seamless, mild and relatively unobtrusive (ummmm.. Jim....you got some green stuff on ur neck).

Lastly, the crucible/citidel itself says that the cycle began when it was realized that organics always rebel against their creators when allowed to develop along known paths independently. I took this to mean that hte crucible and by extension the reapers are ordained agents of the sentient originator. This is further illustrated by his statement that assimilation will render the cycle no longer necessary.

Free will tempered with the unity created by the advent of a singular new hybrid life form and an unnatural understanding of how emotions-based-selfishness ultimately contributes to the the suffering of all; This is a mutually-beneficial exchange.

The control option just strikes me as a crutch.  I believe that it was only the weaknesses of organic species that prevented them from evolving beyond the reapers in the 50,000 years since the last cycle ended.  The control option buys in to the idea that all is well with the exception of the reapers showing up.  All is not well and reaper technology enables individuals and societies the levels of power that they are not advanced wnough to be entrusted the control of.  Cerberus disproves the efficacy of the control option.  The control option is feeble in that along with a reprieve, not much is gained, certainly not long-term continuity.

If allowed to simply rebuild their reaper-technology-enabled societies in an environment where reaper tech is known and readily availible, then it is not hard to imagine a time when Shepard's little reaper army is destroyed by a cerberus-like group.  Reaper tech enables the building of reaper-level ships which would undermine the security provided by controller-shep very rapidly.  The strength of the reapers, what made them unbeatable in conventional warfare was the hull strength of their ships and the shinyness of their lasers.  Against similar-level equipment they have little advantage.

Assimilation is the only feasible long-term solution.

Modifié par Parrk, 08 mars 2012 - 04:30 .

[Evil_medved]

Xellith wrote...

hismastersvoice wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...

 Reapers fastes ships in the galaxy with almost unlimited fuel, maybe even capable to evacuate Quarian, Krogan and Turians back to their worlds, clean their own mess and construct new mass relays there.

Reapers still move at FTL speed when not using the relays AFAIK. That means they'd still spend thouasands of years travelling to systems that should have a relay to construct it there. Not really that relevant for all the Turians eating their boots on Earth.

The reapers are already everywhere.  They wouldnt have to travel since different groups of reapers could make relays in their particular region.  There wouldnt be any need for any long distance trips apart from material transportation.

Thats is an excellent point. Reapers can start rebuilding entire network in ten minutes after detonation. Then its matter of using individual relays to bring citadel back in widow and we all set.

Parrk wrote...

I do not agree with that control ending should be cannon, or that it represents the "good" ending at all.

I support organic-synthetic assimilation, and here's why:

I
chose the Geth over the Quarians because they were right. The Geth did
not desire conflict. They never attacked except in instances where it
was the only means of self-preservation. The quarians chose their
destiny through a litany of short-sighted and selfish choices. Their
entire culture was based on whining and finger pointing They could
easily have chosen a new home even before their immune systems were
compromised by hundreds of years in sterile environments, but they chose
not to. They could have chosen peaceful cohabitation and would have
been allowed to return to their home planet, but they chose not to.

The
Asari could have engaged the entire galaxy in a level of scientific
development and discovery which would have culminated in the reapers
having gotten their asses handed to them as soon as they showed up in
known space. Instead they chose to hide this wondrous thing they found,
this object that could have acted as the key that would unlock ongoing
survival for organic species indefinitely.

Instead they hid it
away and only capitalized on it to the extent of a few meager scientific
advancements, as had other greedy and self-interest species in similar
instances time and again over the past millions of years.

Those species that are prominent in Shepard's cycle are dramatically less advanced then those from the cycle directly previous.

Organics are broken.

It
must be said that it is not Shepard who saved the galaxy and enables
the continuity of organic life, but rather it is Shepard and EDI.
Without EDI Shepard would have failed. She is the single most important
member of the crew many times over. Shepard would have died to a
hanger venting on the IM base. Shepard would have died to a destroyer
in London. The collectors would possibly have proven impossible to
defeat prior to the completion of the human reaper in ME2 as well if not
for EDI.

Even before being granted individuality by Legion's
upload, the Geth have spent hundreds of years developing a culture where
runtime processes deal with each other in a manne that can be described
as dispassionate interest in the welfare of all. Though they are
incapable of emotion as organics know it, they are continuously
self-evolving, and unlike organics, they are moving in the right
direction.

We could debate whether synthetics could every really
be "alive", but my feeling is that saying they cannot requires adoption
of an unnecessarily narrow definition of what "life" is. They lack the
ability to experience
chemical-reaction-induced-sensory-input-resulting-in-conclusions-not-supported-by-logic.
Even that though can be synthesized to the point that a series of
conclusions to a control group of stimuli could not be differentiated
from that of an organic. This would require little more than an
on-board chemistry analyzer with some sort of pseudo-random component.
Such a thing is certainly within the grasp of the science of their age.

This
is why the destroy technology option is clearly the "bad" one in my
view. It dooms those who enable organic continuity thereby underscoring
the very qualities that prevented organics from ever being ready for
the reapers to begin with. It represents more of the same brokenness
that has always held sapiens back.

A large portion (those who can afford to) of organics are part machine already.

Without EDI victory was not possible (or at least far far less likely by several degrees of magnitude).

Organics
and synthetics both benefit tremendously from the conversion. The
conversion itself is portrayed as seamless, mild and relatively
unobtrusive (ummmm.. Jim....you got some green stuff on ur neck).

Lastly,
the crucible/citidel itself says that the cycle began when it was
realized that organics always rebel against their creators when allowed
to develop along known paths independently. I took this to mean that
hte crucible and by extension the reapers are ordained agents of the
sentient originator. This is further illustrated by his statement that
assimilation will render the cycle no longer necessary.

Free will
tempered with the unity created by the advent of a singular new hybrid
life form and an unnatural understanding of how
emotions-based-selfishness ultimately contributes to the the suffering
of all; This is a mutually-beneficial exchange.

I can't disagree with you, since you stating the facts by the most part. Though i'd prefer to see Reapers as allies of organics then turning everybody into them. If we ever will reach that point, it sould be organics decision, not be forced upon them.

Modifié par Evil_medved, 08 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[Kiyosuki]

Well the control ending does definitely have the possibilities in it for continuing the ME universe as we know it. Technology definitely still exists, the Citadel is floating up in Earth's orbit intact, the Mass Relays are severely damaged but not destroyed, and Shepards' gone but he still "exists" as the collective consciousness of the reapers which is worth a dozen implications in itself. 

How to balance the idea of letting people choose whatever (not like the three endings have much variation to begin with though, outside of the implications within your imagination.) while still being able to continue this universe is the question. But yeah I agree that assuming their technology exists, and FTL drive is still there....it's not like all hope is lost for galactic civilization or the Normandy crew. Also remember that one Matriarch who talked about building our own mass relays, which wasn't a popular idea at the time but...

I just keep thinking of all those races stuck on Earth with what's left of humanity. It kind of sucks for the forseeable future, like Wrex just got the Krogans' act together but now he's stuck with us to name a few things, but at the same time it's kind of an interesting premise in itself. 

Edt: I never thought about the idea of the relays being rebuilt by the controlled reapers....

Modifié par Kiyosuki, 08 mars 2012 - 04:17 .