24 réponses à ce sujet

[Kemor]

Just finished my first playthrough after 25h or so, great game, great gameplay (really awesome action sequences) and the only real downside was that the story seemed even more railed than ever before and that the companion choice was way too limited and overall, not engaging.

Anyway, had a good time...until the very end...with that frikkin kid representation and his completely stupid logic. 

Life is chaos by it's very nature and the more sentient life gets, the more chaotic it gets. Anyone not agreeing with that never actually met anything alive.
Synthetic on the other end is pure order, 100% predictible, until it's sentient (ie: AI), then it becomes part of the chaos, since it's alive.

So the ENTIRE plot for having the reapers in the first place, that is, to clean up evolved life before their synthetic creation bring chaos, is totally moronic, sorry to whoever thought about it. The Geth didn't bring any more chaos than there was before. EDI didn't bring any more chaos. Heck, even the Reapers didn't, just chaos on a bigger a scale is all.

I almost choked when that silly kid (please, no more dream sequences EVER) said that line, and totally went red when I couldn't even interact on that part or at least ask for some clarification. I'm sorry but you don't just "lay out" something THAT stupid that casually, not when it's the very reason for the ENTIRE mass effect plotline.

So great game, good fun, I'm about to start a new session. But very dissappointed, the ending totally sucked.

Also, while at it, I haven't checked the other endings but the "control one", wtf happened, it doesn't make sense! If you control the Reapers, why the heck would you send them away, especially now that the relays are destroyed! Plus, where can you send them, the relays are destroyed!
And the ship trying to escape the blast, then bam, you're on some random green planet and for some reason, only joker/ashley/james come out and don't say a thing? Where are the others? What are they gonna do? What happens to the human race?
How the other races cope with not being able to use the relays since their entire military is in Sol?


No sense of "completion" or closure whatsoever! It's almost as bad as the DA2 ending (which was the worst, ever). Why have 3 games, 30ish hour each, resolving around defeating the Reapers, if you don't even know what's  happening AFTER you do that. Gimme paintings, sketches with some voice over, anything but that.


Ah well...anyway. 

[omgBAMF]

Basic story:

Reapers are machines that kill people so those people can't make machines that kill people.

[Kemor]

Thanks omgBAMF, you summed up that stupid logic very nicely, better than I did actually

And yes, that blows. No idea what BIOWARE writers' team was thinking there.

[LucidStrike]

omgBAMF wrote...

Basic story:

Reapers are machines that kill people so those people can't make machines that kill people.

Pretty much the faulty logic of The Crucible. =/

Modifié par LucidStrike, 08 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

The old plot with the dark energy would have been better and made more sense. This whole hypocritical machine murder by the reapers to save ourselves from making machines that kill us is tacked on.


-Polite

[Muezick]

The reapers preserve civilizations.

you guys seen how much memory is stored inside that lil shard that Javik owns?

imagine a reaper filled with them. the collective memory of every species wiped out in each cycle.

the reapers did not "Kill people"

I found this deus ex machina very acceptable.

they didn't handle it well though. Since i'm so good at drawing conclusions and tracing lines in the sand, it seemed obvious to me.

but after reading reviews that i've read, i am seeing bioware didn't put enough emphasis on it. they should've made it more obvious.

We should've been allowed to befriend a reaper

(I expected the one on rannoch to make friends with us...then spill the beans on the whole thing, when he didn't...i was disapointed.)

[Muezick]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

The old plot with the dark energy would have been better and made more sense. This whole hypocritical machine murder by the reapers to save ourselves from making machines that kill us is tacked on.


-Polite

I am upset the haestrom story line was dropped as well.

[Militarized]

What was the old dark energy plot? I remember hearing a lot about it in ME2 then it went out the window obviously.

Also, it's ironic that the kid explains to Shepard the Reaper purpose in 10 seconds when Sovereign and others say that their "purpose is unfathomable to your organic mind". Seemed pretty easily fathomable, in fact we were able to quickly deduce how F*CKING STUPID it was. 

Modifié par Militarized, 08 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[Muezick]

i read some where that some guy read somewhere some early pre-approved script where the reapers were the good guys protecting us from some other un-named bad guys that were trying to destroy the galaxy with dark energy.

[Muezick]

Militarized wrote...

What was the old dark energy plot? I remember hearing a lot about it in ME2 then it went out the window obviously.

Also, it's ironic that the kid explains to Shepard the Reaper purpose in 10 seconds when Sovereign and others say that their "purpose is unfathomable to your organic mind". Seemed pretty easily fathomable, in fact we were able to quickly deduce how F*CKING STUPID it was. 

lol...

i find it ironic that you find it stupid.

>"Reapers said we can't fathom it."

>Get told what it is

>"thats stupid!"


if you can't see how silly it is for you to say this then i can't help you.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Yeah no follow up on haestrom at all. The old leak had that the reapers were harvesting us and turning us into reapers so that they could be strong enough to stop the spread of dark energy or something like that. Much better than we kill you guys so that you can't make machines that ultimately kill you. So hypocritical.


-Polite

[Militarized]

That.... doesn't sound much better honestly.

I really don't understand why they couldn't remain enigmatic and unknowable, a force of nature we couldn't comprehend but we fight against anyway. Sometimes coming out on top and other times not, but we live and die trying.

Er, poster above me made it sound a bit better. Still... I like my idea. lol 

Modifié par Militarized, 08 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[Ksandor]

Kemor wrote...

Thanks omgBAMF, you summed up that stupid logic very nicely, better than I did actually

And yes, that blows. No idea what BIOWARE writers' team was thinking there.

It seems an exec level company blackout is in effect. Meaning that they don't have the courage to come here and explain themselves about these endings (nothing to explain or defend anyway). "Our game, we did it, you suck it. Go pout we win, we are all high and mighty and don't deign to answer mortals aka fans" mode engaged. If only they knew that such attitude do not belittle us but them...

[Ghurshog]

There is a simply fact: the Guardian's stated purpose is from "its" point of view. And clearly it values logic and highest probability over random chance.

The issue is how probable was Shepard to actually get to the Guardian? It stated that because Shepard was there that its 'solution' would no longer work. Which given the stated logic I could have told it the plan would eventually fail.

In essence the story line is trying to defeat the Theory of Entropy of which you can read here;
http://en.wikipedia....ormation_theory

This is a theory of why we don't live in a Quantum universe (crazy stuff happening all the time predicted by Quantum Mechanics).

So in simple terms our universe naturally evolves from an "ordered state to a disordered stated constantly". This theory is why a broken glass simply doesn't reassemble itself before your very eyes. Quantum mechanics says its possible if you wait long enough. However we all know that it won't in the current universe we live in, so why not? The theory of entropy or Chaos theory prevents it from occuring.

From what I gathered form the dialog the guardian believed its method had the "highest" success chance of preventing synthetics from ultimately destroying orgaincs. However this ignores best outcomes by focusing on the How and simply excepting the eventual outcome.

Why does this seem so crazy to us humans? our intution, informed by experience, reasoning, and emotions, tell us that we want to try for the best outcome that doesn't destroy us and to strive for it.

The guardian's plan/point of view also assumes organics can't create synthetics with a moral or emotional component. That all synthetic life (we can discuss whether its truly synthetic in another thread) must/will destroy organics because they view organics as to dangerous to continue their existence.

Apparently the guardian hasn't heard of Asimov's 3 laws (and a 4th to cover the loop hole). http://en.wikipedia....aws_of_Robotics

All in all the precept of the narrative told to Shepard simply lacks sympathy and empathy. Its the solution a machine would choose. See Terminator, The Matrix, ect.

Modifié par Ghurshog, 08 mars 2012 - 03:19 .

[HaiknEdge]

Muezick wrote...

Militarized wrote...

What was the old dark energy plot? I remember hearing a lot about it in ME2 then it went out the window obviously.

Also, it's ironic that the kid explains to Shepard the Reaper purpose in 10 seconds when Sovereign and others say that their "purpose is unfathomable to your organic mind". Seemed pretty easily fathomable, in fact we were able to quickly deduce how F*CKING STUPID it was. 

lol...

i find it ironic that you find it stupid.

>"Reapers said we can't fathom it."

>Get told what it is

>"thats stupid!"


if you can't see how silly it is for you to say this then i can't help you.

Yeah, but if we do understand it, and think it's stupid, how is it unfathomable?

[Militarized]

Muezick wrote...

Militarized wrote...

What was the old dark energy plot? I remember hearing a lot about it in ME2 then it went out the window obviously.

Also, it's ironic that the kid explains to Shepard the Reaper purpose in 10 seconds when Sovereign and others say that their "purpose is unfathomable to your organic mind". Seemed pretty easily fathomable, in fact we were able to quickly deduce how F*CKING STUPID it was. 

lol...

i find it ironic that you find it stupid.

>"Reapers said we can't fathom it."

>Get told what it is

>"thats stupid!"


if you can't see how silly it is for you to say this then i can't help you.

It's mostly stupid because it was originally supposed to be unfathomable, it's EXTRA stupid to be pigeon-holed into wanna-be altruistic, psuephilosophical endings that make no sense. 

Ghurshog wrote...

All in all the precept of the narrative told to Shepard simply lacks sympathy and empathy. Its the solution a machine would choose. See Terminator, The Matrix, ect.

That's... actually you just kind of summed up what REALLY bothered me. Besides no sex scene with Jack . The control you felt before is taken away and you really don't have a real choice, your previous choices are also null and void and set to the tune of this AI's ideas. It's not really YOUR decision, it's the machines and that's characterized pretty well with all the endings being "different" yet all being vanilla.  

Modifié par Militarized, 08 mars 2012 - 03:25 .

[Militarized]

woops, double post my bad. 

Modifié par Militarized, 08 mars 2012 - 03:25 .

[Elsightos]

When they started harping on about Order/Chaos for a moment I thought Space Marines were going to drop onto the crucible and end everything.

Another possible ending!

[balmyrian]

The stuff came pretty close to being awesome, if it hadn't taken a turn for the pompous and pedestrian. I don't really know what kind of craziness possessed the writers to think that they had anything worthwhile to add on the old and tired "machines vs humans" science fiction trope (pedestrian bit). Worse yet when they put wild musings about order and chaos in there, which, whether they are stated as the perspective of a deranged AI ghost kid, or as absolute truth, is a good deal of nonsense (pompous bit).

I'm not too sure what made them think that the audience would be happy to suddenly shift right in the end from character-based storytelling based on emotion, choice, relationship and ethics, to some kind of plane of cosmic overview. It never works. You got to build that stuff up and make people ready for it. Especially when you got a confusing self-defeating plot that you can't rely on to back you up.

There were so many better ways to end the whole experience than to fly off in a rant on stuff that's too deep in the first place to be used as a plot device right out of nowhere. Especially when the entire series has been built on emotion, relationships, personality, choice and ethics. Not sure what happened.

I am still hoping that this is some kind of mass hallucination government black ops program.

[Merengues 1945]

Yeah, that's just a very stupid logic... If the guardian have the technology to build reapers, give sheploo a few bad dreams and al that stuff... I'm sure they should came with something with more logic than that rubbish.

[Jigero]

The order and chaos dichotomy was pointless, They keep telling us about this feared chaos we will bring, but we never get to experience it, see it or understand it. We are just told it will come, despite that every thing leading up to this point has proved other wise. On top of that if this Chaos is inevitable, whats so bad about letting it happen? Would we just wipe our selves out anyways, leaving what ever comes next to ascend,  The Earth it self has gone through many of these changes, one civilation or speacies falls another acends,  and wouldn't that be finishing your cycle for you? What are the point of the reapers in natural courses already cause extinction and acention? Or are they suggesting, that this chaos will end the galaxy? Even if it did, so what? That leaves no Organics to cause Chaos, Why are Organics needed if all they cause is Chaos? Why not just exterminate them?

She this is why this Order and cause thing is stupid, it just keeps bringing up more and more questions that go unanswered and in a game about choices where just forced to accept these things with out any input.

Modifié par Jigero, 08 mars 2012 - 06:10 .

[Abirn]

If the catalyst was the citadel. Why the hell didn't it just open the relay itself What was the point in leaving sovereign behind. Logically it negates the plot of the entire series.

[SyyRaaaN]

Abirn wrote...

If the catalyst was the citadel. Why the hell didn't it just open the relay itself What was the point in leaving sovereign behind. Logically it negates the plot of the entire series.

The plot holes are rampant with this ending. Its simply because they didn't take the time to explan ANYTHING in favor of action. Thats why endings like these sucks donkey in action oriented Sci-Fi. Would have been quite fun to do a full deconstruct of the ME story now and find all the major plot holes and contradictions.

Modifié par SyyRaaaN, 08 mars 2012 - 06:11 .

[Claym0re]

Little internet search

Original ending

The Reapers' goal was to find a way to stop the spread of Dark Energy which would eventually consume everything. That's why there was so much foreshadowing about Dark Energy in ME2.

The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of it's genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread.

The original final choice was going to be "Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left" or "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

Changed plot

The Reapers new goal is that they are working to prevent a technological singularity. The quick definition of a "technological singularity" is basically a point when the machines of a civilization become more advanced than their creators and they are able to outdo their creators in pretty much every way imaginable.

The game attempts to justify the Singularity Motivation because all it takes is ONE incident with A.I. to bring about an apocalyptic war that would destroy all organics. Project Overlord was a very, very clear example of this: Cerberus nearly destroyed the entire galaxy. Organics lucked out big time that the Geth were so understanding and that A.I. like EDI are tame (and even then, EDI did something in the past before ME2 that may make you view her in a very different light: Mass Effect 3 reveals this).

The Reapers aren't hypocrites (in concept) in the Singularity Motivation because they don't perceive themselves as machines wiping out organics. They see themselves as immortal vessels that preserve a civilization forever that just happens to be synthetic. They see themselves as the saviors of organics for letting them grow and prosper and then harvesting them before they evolve to the point of singularity. "Imposing order on the chaos of organic evolution" as Sovereign said.

Modifié par Claym0re, 08 mars 2012 - 06:15 .

[Ghurshog]

Militarized wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

All in all the precept of the narrative told to Shepard simply lacks sympathy and empathy. Its the solution a machine would choose. See Terminator, The Matrix, ect.

That's... actually you just kind of summed up what REALLY bothered me. Besides no sex scene with Jack . The control you felt before is taken away and you really don't have a real choice, your previous choices are also null and void and set to the tune of this AI's ideas. It's not really YOUR decision, it's the machines and that's characterized pretty well with all the endings being "different" yet all being vanilla.  

And I find it a little odd Shepard doesn't rebuke the fatalistic nature of the narritive with more conviction or creativity. 

Are the deam sequences a method to condition shepard (and the player) into a mind set that will make Shepard predispoded to simply accepting in the end the 3 choices? Not my Shepard I tell you!