51 réponses à ce sujet

[noxsachi]

It really depends on your difficulty. I could see the free power being good before insanity, but on the highest difficulty a fully damage upgraded Incinerate does not even kill a husk.

[RenegadeVA]

It is a free power, at least w/ incinerate, b/c you can cloak, incinerate, shoot.. then you get hit with the standard cloak cooldown. You can immediately shoot after the incinerate too.

If you get no additional cooldown, and an incinerate gets fired... I call that free.

Still no way I'm seeing making up the damage an incinerate can do.

noxsachi wrote...

It really depends on your difficulty. I could see the free power being good before insanity, but on the highest difficulty a fully damage upgraded Incinerate does not even kill a husk.

 

And the extra 40% will do more damage than incinerate+sniper shot? 


My basic arguement is that incinerate+sniper shot > Sniper Shot w/ 40% damage boost in almost all instances. 

Modifié par RenegadeVA, 10 mars 2012 - 09:13 .

[Kronner]

But with Black Widow, you can go (in this order): Shot + Shot + Incinerate in one Cloak cycle. This is useful only in a few fights though.

[Tumedus]

Personally I go for the sniper damage over the cloaked power for 1 simple reason, I want to shoot first. Incinerate is great to finish something off that isn't worth using a snipe on, but in most situtation if I am cloaked I am headshotting or taking out big targets (yes insanity). Headshot>incinerate and I would rather spend that extra second of every cycle on lining up another shot.

If the the power let you use an incinerate after cloak had dropped at no penalty, I might consider it, but as you basically need to lead with it so you don't drop cloak before taking your shots, not worth it, imo.

Each to their own, of course.

Modifié par Tumedus, 10 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[RenegadeVA]

Kronner wrote...

But with Black Widow, you can go (in this order): Shot + Shot + Incinerate in one Cloak cycle. This is useful only in a few fights though.

Heh, well that still supports the Bonus Power> rifle damage. 

I didn't really mess around w/ the black widow too much until the end of the game, but I hated how heavy it is. 

I like my 2 second cooldown incinerates, dammit. 

[Athenau]

It is a free power, at least w/ incinerate, b/c you can cloak, incinerate, shoot.. then you get hit with the standard cloak cooldown. You can immediately shoot after the incinerate too.

It isn't a free power. You hit incinerate and the incinerate cooldown starts immediately even though you remain cloaked.

[RenegadeVA]

Athenau wrote...

It is a free power, at least w/ incinerate, b/c you can cloak, incinerate, shoot.. then you get hit with the standard cloak cooldown. You can immediately shoot after the incinerate too.

It isn't a free power. You hit incinerate and the incinerate cooldown starts immediately even though you remain cloaked.

Yes it is, because wihout it, doing any action will trigger the cloak cooldown. Which is longer than the incinerate one. 

With it, you can cloak, IMMEDIATELY incinerate (no cooldown) and IMMEDIATELY fire your rifle, which triggers cloak cooldown instead. 

It's free. 

Whether or not a cooldown still happens is irrelevant. 

Modifié par RenegadeVA, 10 mars 2012 - 10:01 .

[RenegadeVA]

Tumedus wrote...
I want to shoot first. Incinerate is great to finish something off that isn't worth using a snipe on, but in most situtation if I am cloaked I am headshotting or taking out big targets

That's why with mantis, my optimal order was something like
Shoot,
Cloak,
animation cancel the reload w/ incinerate,
shoot. 

That way I shot faster, reloaded faster, and got bonus from cloaking. 

[Athenau]

With it, you can cloak, IMMEDIATELY incinerate (no cooldown) and IMMEDIATELY fire your rifle, which triggers cloak cooldown instead.

What are you talking about? You can do all that without the cloak upgrade. Cloaking and triggering incinerate will immediately start the incinerate cooldown either way. The only difference is that with the upgrade you don't break cloak until you shoot instead of when you fire incinerate.

You do realize the cloak damage bonus lasts for more than a single shot (you have 2.5 seconds from the moment you break cloak), right?

Modifié par Athenau, 10 mars 2012 - 10:32 .

[Tumedus]

RenegadeVA wrote...

Tumedus wrote...
I want to shoot first. Incinerate is great to finish something off that isn't worth using a snipe on, but in most situtation if I am cloaked I am headshotting or taking out big targets

That's why with mantis, my optimal order was something like
Shoot,
Cloak,
animation cancel the reload w/ incinerate,
shoot. 

That way I shot faster, reloaded faster, and got bonus from cloaking. 

Which requires an exposed shot to get and basically just compensates for the fact that you don't have more shots per clip.

In comparison, the Black Widow has roughly the same stats in all categories but weight, which is higher, but it comes with 3 shots per clip and innate armor peneatration (easy mode guardian kills). I can cloak, easily fire 2 shots with the bonus, reload in the brief cooldown*, cloak again and repeat.

I think the real question is, can you kill more than 2 enemies per cloak cycle, because if you can't, all this extra work for you reload cancel is ultimately a bit useless. It may help you kill the big bads faster, but at the same time, when there are multiple big bads on the screen, I am even less wanting to take exposed fire.

Edit: *fwiw, I run w/ a fully upgraded BW and a Vindicator for just-in-case moments (use it on the occassional husk). That gives me +140%.

Modifié par Tumedus, 10 mars 2012 - 10:47 .

[RenegadeVA]

Athenau wrote...

With it, you can cloak, IMMEDIATELY incinerate (no cooldown) and IMMEDIATELY fire your rifle, which triggers cloak cooldown instead.

What are you talking about? You can do all that without the cloak upgrade. Cloaking and triggering incinerate will immediately start the incinerate cooldown either way. The only difference is that with the upgrade you don't break cloak until you shoot instead of when you fire incinerate.

Ahh.. all this arguing over semantics. Listen, the Cloaks cooldown is triggered when you break cloak, and it's longer than incinerate. if you were to cloak and use incinerate, cloak cooldown happens overtop the incinerates. 
When you have the bonus option, you can incinerate, immediately fire which breaks the cloak and inititates cloak cooldown overtop the incinerate cooldown. 
No matter what, you're stuck with the cloak cooldown. 
Only w/ the bonus, you used an incinerate too. 

Thus, it's basically free. 

I'm not sure why this is so confusing to you. 

[rumination888]

Cloak boosts power damage now. So with the bonus power, you can (90% more damage)Incinerate, wait 2.5s, shoot, (90% more damage)incinerate, shoot, decloak.

[Athenau]

No matter what, you're stuck with the cloak cooldown.

Do you even read what you write? If you're stuck with the cloak cooldown either way, it doesn't matter. You've just disproven your own assertion.

You do understand that the game uses global cooldowns? And that cloak and incinerate/sabotage share a cooldown? So when the cloak cooldown triggers incinerate is locked out until the cloak cooldown ends. You don't overlap the incinerate and cloak cooldowns, the cloak cooldown overrides incinerate when you decloak (which is 1 second after you break cloak).

The only way you could consider the upgrade giving you a free power is if you stay in cloak and fired incinerate twice without shooting.

I'm not sure why this is so confusing to you.

I'm often confused by bad arguments, yes.

rumination888 wrote...

Cloak boosts power damage now. So
with the bonus power, you can (90% more damage)Incinerate, wait 2.5s,
shoot, (90% more damage)incinerate, shoot, decloak.

I didn't know cloak buffed power damage.  Now see, this is a good reason to get the bonus power.   Firing off massively buffed incinerates while cloaked is pretty sweet.

Modifié par Athenau, 10 mars 2012 - 11:02 .

[Tumedus]

Do you even read what you write? If you're stuck with the cloak cooldown either way, it doesn't matter. You've just disproven your own assertion.

While I still disagree with his strategy, the cooldown thing he is claiming is correct (for the way he is using it). Here is why: The cooldown for cloak does not activate until your cloak dissipates and the cooldown for incinerate is shorter than that of cloak (assuming fully specced). So the cooldown of incinerate will never impact the cooldown of cloak if used while actually cloaked because the cloak cooldown will override it.

To put it in actual game terms, what happens is you activate cloak off of cooldown. No cooldown is activated yet. You fire an incinerate which incurs X second cooldown (obviously varies based on spec and loadout). You then fire a shot or possibly another ability if X is appropriately low. When cloak now dissipates it activates its own cooldown, which is longer than the incinerate cooldown.

Apart from the time spent casting a largely meaningless incinerate, imo, the actual cooldown time is not increased in any way. Although, because he is using a 1shot per cloak weapon it really doesn't help him in any way. He could activate incinerate and fire within 2.5 seconds and get all the bonus regardless.

And just to add to my personal preference, I find shooting through cover to be far more reliable than arcing fire around it.

Modifié par Tumedus, 11 mars 2012 - 12:07 .

[Nabbed]

From coalesced.bin.

Two numbers, as far as I understand it, are for I - V variants.
Some numbers appear to be slightly inconsistent, like the total ammo sizes for some rifles.
img444.imageshack.us/img444/5843/sniperrd.jpg

Personally, I use Raptor because of the highest dps.

Modifié par Nabbed, 11 mars 2012 - 03:06 .

[twisty77]

This was my class for my first playthrough. It was an absolute beast. One shot headshot Marauders and Centurions while cloaked, 3 shot Harvesters, 6 shot Atlas', one shot kill any tier one enemy w/o being cloaked(Cerberus Assault trooper, Cannibal, etc). I loved it. I don't know how I"m going to beat the final battle without it with other classes haha

[Synthetic Frost]

From my own findings, I too have fallen in love with the M-13 Raptor. The fact that it doesn't zoom in quite as far as most snipers actually makes aiming easier. Even when playing on consoles. That plus better firing rate than ME2's Viper, the largest ammo clip, and the fastest reload time, AND the fact that it's one of the lightest snipers makes for a very appealing weapon.

To be clear, in ME2, I was a Widow Infiltrator all the way. I only used the Viper very rarely. The idea of treating a sniper rifle like an assault rifle didn't appeal to me. But there's something about the Raptor. it's minimal weight when upped to the Raptor V makes it not only a light weapon, but one of the lightest major (Not a pistol) weapons in the game, even without the ultralight mod. This means I can run around with it and a scoped SMG, and still have extremely fast power cooldowns.

The only significant weakness worth noting is that the Raptor has a harder time punching through heavier foes like the Atlas. Which is what the snipers are brought in to excel at. But with the disruptor ammo, and an Incinerate that has almost no cooldown, I haven't had any real issues.

With the Raptor coupled with Cryo Ammo (something else I never used on my ME2 Widow Infiltrator), I mop up the weaker foes on the field in a matter of seconds even on insanity. Though admittedly Liara helps a lot. Her singularity is invaluable on the Guardians.

[rumination888]

twisty77 wrote...

This was my class for my first playthrough. It was an absolute beast. One shot headshot Marauders and Centurions while cloaked, 3 shot Harvesters, 6 shot Atlas', one shot kill any tier one enemy w/o being cloaked(Cerberus Assault trooper, Cannibal, etc). I loved it. I don't know how I"m going to beat the final battle without it with other classes haha

How do you one shot Marauders and Centurions? You can deal 9999999999999 damage, but you'll never one shot them due to their protection.

[twisty77]

rumination888 wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

This was my class for my first playthrough. It was an absolute beast. One shot headshot Marauders and Centurions while cloaked, 3 shot Harvesters, 6 shot Atlas', one shot kill any tier one enemy w/o being cloaked(Cerberus Assault trooper, Cannibal, etc). I loved it. I don't know how I"m going to beat the final battle without it with other classes haha

How do you one shot Marauders and Centurions? You can deal 9999999999999 damage, but you'll never one shot them due to their protection.

You have to have the right upgrades and fully upgrade the weapon to Black Widow 5. I had the time dilation/damage and extra clips upgrades, and my tactical cloak was level 6 with all the damage choices selected.

Also make sure you headshot them.

[Tumedus]

twisty77 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

This was my class for my first playthrough. It was an absolute beast. One shot headshot Marauders and Centurions while cloaked, 3 shot Harvesters, 6 shot Atlas', one shot kill any tier one enemy w/o being cloaked(Cerberus Assault trooper, Cannibal, etc). I loved it. I don't know how I"m going to beat the final battle without it with other classes haha

How do you one shot Marauders and Centurions? You can deal 9999999999999 damage, but you'll never one shot them due to their protection.

You have to have the right upgrades and fully upgrade the weapon to Black Widow 5. I had the time dilation/damage and extra clips upgrades, and my tactical cloak was level 6 with all the damage choices selected.

Also make sure you headshot them.

Out of curiosity, what difficulty are you playing on? Because those guys alway stagger on the first shot bringing down shields in my insanity games. I can kill weak enemies like assault trooper through a shield, assuming they have a shield generator, but the 2 units you are discussing work like Ruminatinon suggested in my game.

[noxsachi]

Tumedus wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

This was my class for my first playthrough. It was an absolute beast. One shot headshot Marauders and Centurions while cloaked, 3 shot Harvesters, 6 shot Atlas', one shot kill any tier one enemy w/o being cloaked(Cerberus Assault trooper, Cannibal, etc). I loved it. I don't know how I"m going to beat the final battle without it with other classes haha

How do you one shot Marauders and Centurions? You can deal 9999999999999 damage, but you'll never one shot them due to their protection.

You have to have the right upgrades and fully upgrade the weapon to Black Widow 5. I had the time dilation/damage and extra clips upgrades, and my tactical cloak was level 6 with all the damage choices selected.

Also make sure you headshot them.

Out of curiosity, what difficulty are you playing on? Because those guys alway stagger on the first shot bringing down shields in my insanity games. I can kill weak enemies like assault trooper through a shield, assuming they have a shield generator, but the 2 units you are discussing work like Ruminatinon suggested in my game.

Yeah I think you can only snipe through them on normal. On my ng+ no matter how strong of a shot it takes two headshots to finish off shielded guys.

Maybe someone who uses disrupter can say otherwise for insantity, given that I prefer cryo ammo.

[AlphaJarmel]

Doesn't Valiant have the higher sustained DPS?

[twisty77]

noxsachi wrote...

Tumedus wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

This was my class for my first playthrough. It was an absolute beast. One shot headshot Marauders and Centurions while cloaked, 3 shot Harvesters, 6 shot Atlas', one shot kill any tier one enemy w/o being cloaked(Cerberus Assault trooper, Cannibal, etc). I loved it. I don't know how I"m going to beat the final battle without it with other classes haha

How do you one shot Marauders and Centurions? You can deal 9999999999999 damage, but you'll never one shot them due to their protection.

You have to have the right upgrades and fully upgrade the weapon to Black Widow 5. I had the time dilation/damage and extra clips upgrades, and my tactical cloak was level 6 with all the damage choices selected.

Also make sure you headshot them.

Out of curiosity, what difficulty are you playing on? Because those guys alway stagger on the first shot bringing down shields in my insanity games. I can kill weak enemies like assault trooper through a shield, assuming they have a shield generator, but the 2 units you are discussing work like Ruminatinon suggested in my game.

Yeah I think you can only snipe through them on normal. On my ng+ no matter how strong of a shot it takes two headshots to finish off shielded guys.

Maybe someone who uses disrupter can say otherwise for insantity, given that I prefer cryo ammo.

Oh yah I forgot about difficulty. My playthrough was on Hardcore. Not Insanity, but not normal, either. I can see how on Insanity you're not going to be able to get them the first time. It took me until the Cerberus Base and London to be able to one shot the Centurions and the Marauders.

[noxsachi]

twisty77 wrote...

noxsachi wrote...

Tumedus wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

twisty77 wrote...

This was my class for my first playthrough. It was an absolute beast. One shot headshot Marauders and Centurions while cloaked, 3 shot Harvesters, 6 shot Atlas', one shot kill any tier one enemy w/o being cloaked(Cerberus Assault trooper, Cannibal, etc). I loved it. I don't know how I"m going to beat the final battle without it with other classes haha

How do you one shot Marauders and Centurions? You can deal 9999999999999 damage, but you'll never one shot them due to their protection.

You have to have the right upgrades and fully upgrade the weapon to Black Widow 5. I had the time dilation/damage and extra clips upgrades, and my tactical cloak was level 6 with all the damage choices selected.

Also make sure you headshot them.

Out of curiosity, what difficulty are you playing on? Because those guys alway stagger on the first shot bringing down shields in my insanity games. I can kill weak enemies like assault trooper through a shield, assuming they have a shield generator, but the 2 units you are discussing work like Ruminatinon suggested in my game.

Yeah I think you can only snipe through them on normal. On my ng+ no matter how strong of a shot it takes two headshots to finish off shielded guys.

Maybe someone who uses disrupter can say otherwise for insantity, given that I prefer cryo ammo.

Oh yah I forgot about difficulty. My playthrough was on Hardcore. Not Insanity, but not normal, either. I can see how on Insanity you're not going to be able to get them the first time. It took me until the Cerberus Base and London to be able to one shot the Centurions and the Marauders.

I think it is just a feature of insanity. The first hit will just remove the shield and stagger them, dealing no health damage, no matter how low the shield is. Which i mean, makes sense given the lore of shields.

[Priisus]

Does the Black Widow actually renders AP ammo redundant? Since it can already shoot through cover/shields and such?

Also, I'm guessing you took the "use one power" for Cloak upgrade?