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Is it the end? - Concerning alternate endings (Ending DLC Proposal inside)


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#1
Elishiaila

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We can see how people are disappointed because of the endings. And if players are unhappy they won't recommend the game. And in EU most customers had no chance to pick up the game yet. Ok, some people used VPNs to activate their game early, but a lot of players waiting for release day, and try to pick up a copy at a good price. No preorders. And they hear how disappointed we are. It would make sense to fix it. But it is hard to design a "Good ending DLC". But here is some proposal for it.

The endings aren't only bad because "ohh, our character died", or because we have to farm multiplayer to have access to some ending (if you don't like FPS games, but you like storytelling in Bioware RPGs, you are slow, etc. it is an issue). They are also bad because we can't even try decisions that would make sense. We can't even try what would we try to do. And those limits lead to the endings we don't like.

What kind of priorities can be on list of priorites for the commander? Lets see a few.

Offer of Peace / Free the Reapers scenario: Show why hope is important, and show how in war with Geth cooperation and peace can be present. And artificial life with freedom can be part of galatic society. WIth love between EDI and Joker you see why the conflict can be avoided. That there is hope of cooperation. The cycle was ineffective only because of cooperation. But with cooperation you don't need the cycle anymore. 

As reapers represent old civilizations, some reaper (with free will) would join the peace. Others won't. But if Catalyst and good portion of reapers can cooperate freely, the war can be won from that point by conventional means. Which is a long ending. One where you have to fight from city to city, from planet to planet, etc.

And it is better than Synergy as it doesn't force anyone to change. And I see it is a strong paragon ending. And in this ending we can have a living character...


Extending the cycle: You can agree with the Catalyst on importance of reapers but disagree on 50.000 years long circle. Your solution can be to extend the circle. As long as no "unstoppable singularity develops" reapers should wait and supervise. If any culture would become a threat harvest that culture. And only wipe out multiple cultures as last resort.

They should be a threat and a catalyst to help cooperation, but as long as destruction of civilizations can be avoided they can wait with that measure. As Reapers should stay to fight, and be a threat to maintain this extended cycle: conventional warfare would follow. But as majority of reapers would avoid the direct conflict it would be a war someone can win. But even if you would win, threats can resurface later. Again the commander can live :)


These options can be good for DLC content. Their weakness is: After the big confrontation, focusing on smaller problems is... unusual. But it can work, if we make some of the conventional warfare hard enough. And after the first victory it is easy to say: the commander and the crew should stay away from the local conflict. So it can be "Just one more confrontation" and some ceremony. And none would come without a price. The long fights would lead to many dead, some cities would be devastated. It wouldn't look good, it would be still depressed, it could still finish with some important fight... But it would be a "good" / heroic ending.

And as you see both endings can lead to a galaxy we can know, a slower story, with many different heroes... The story, the new colonies, rebuilding, exploring further, the new possibilities, etc. would make good foundations for an MMO. An MMO that focuses on story and PVE, yet has exploration content (procedurally generated?), colonization (player built structures, player managed infrestructure), smuggling, shipping, local markets, economy... In the Mass Effect universe. With the story for the rebuilding, the new conflicts be part of storyline missions, etc. that would be different enough from themepark MMOs to target a fresh audience. Would be friendly and big enough to target the masses.

Modifié par Elishiaila, 09 mars 2012 - 12:25 .


#2
Jonathan Shepard

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I agree. I'm actually okay with the endings as they are, but they should be the "worst case" endings, really. The endings you've proposed should definitely have been in-game, and available with enough War Assets, especially the ones that drag out the war. We've seen how DLC can detect import/event flags (LotSB). And ME3 has to have those flags, as they change parts of storyline dialogue and endings, which means getting the Reapers to agree to peace IF you brokered peace between Quarians and Geth is entirely possibly, and could only be available if the peace was achieved. Otherwise, settle for another ending.

These are great proposals, and BioWare should definitely take them into consideration.

#3
Jonathan Shepard

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This thread needs more bump. Bump.

#4
Elishiaila

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Thank you for supporting and bumping the idea. I think we both agree on two things: That the current endings have a place in the game, even if they are just "worst case scenarios". And that at the end better outcomes would be possible.

But there is more to add.

On a web site, I started to review the game, and started to think more about it. And then realized one more thing. Most games have a final boss at end, and then either clear victory or a heroic sacrifice. Yes, we seen how in Dragon Age the heroic ending would be to sacrifice the Grey Warden.

In Mass Effect 3, we came to the end scene, hoping for the best moments of the game. Worrying about boss fights, thinking about many different options, having ideas about what would we do. Do you remember when have we had a "Boss fight" in the game last time?

Not on the Citadel.
Not on the Earth, as you don't actually fight the reaper there. You just handle regular enemies and use some items.
It is on a cerberus base, while TIM isn't there anymore. The final boss in the game is just a Cerberus enhanced assassin.

Tension and everything is built up, and we waited for some glory in the end. And instead of that glory we were presented a dialog where the choices didn't make sense. As the dialog didn't account for our actions, as our decisions were limited, as we weren't even able to propose something.

We didn't have to fight to get to the 3 options. No. There was no boss fight. Just walk in peace and be unable to ask the questions, say the words you would love to say.

Humanity and everyone else sees Shepard as a hero. Yet, we have a speech for our *party*. But they know us well, so they wouldn't need it badly. But we don't motivate the troops.

Our example doesn't help with readiness. Others do that (multiplayer).

While others fight and have the worst and last moments of the conflict, we just walk and we are unable even to ask a question.

Is it how someone becomes a Legend? No it isn't. And this is one more reason why the ending doesn't seem right.

As you see both in my Paragon and Renegade endings we would see a longer story, but at the end of that longer story we would have "boss fight".

#5
Valk72

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Well, i for one like the ending, but i also find that the game lacks an alternante ending. What i don't understand is they didn't make paragon or renegade option to persuade the catalyst to give the organic of this cycle a chance to live? It would have only been available for the ones who succeed to enforce peace between quarian and geth, demonstrating that organics and synthetics can live peacefully together. It shouldn't have been too difficult to make, and would have make most of the fans happyor at least not as angry as some are actually.

#6
lasertank

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Can't agree with this post more. Bumping

#7
HopHazzard

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Valk72 wrote...

Well, i for one like the ending, but i also find that the game lacks an alternante ending. What i don't understand is they didn't make paragon or renegade option to persuade the catalyst to give the organic of this cycle a chance to live? It would have only been available for the ones who succeed to enforce peace between quarian and geth, demonstrating that organics and synthetics can live peacefully together. It shouldn't have been too difficult to make, and would have make most of the fans happyor at least not as angry as some are actually.


This. I wanted my Shepard to say "Hey. I just brokered peace between the quarians and the geth and now they're working together to rebuild Rannoch. Clearly your premise is invalid. So F--- off!"

#8
Elishiaila

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Info from "elsewhere"

In a PM dahoughtonuk spoke about his "ending ideas" and supported the idea.

On Twitter we hear Bioware has some plans to fix the issue.

On some the topic discussing that Twitter post people spoke about Omega and some other conflicts. And then I came to a conclusion: DLCs earlier in the game can boost your force, readiness, etc. rating, maybe they can even add new flags.

Such flags from multiple DLCs can open up new ways to negotiate in the end, etc. so they can make new endings possible. A DLC can even help with other weapons, other stuff.

And yes: The endings can come in a patch. Why I speak about patch and not only DLC? Because some people always get the game a bit late. Not only a bit late, but Americans already finish it before Europeans can go to a store and buy it. Ouch. Now imagine if the real ending would come in a patch that are released when everyone has a chance to play it at same time.

And it would be in the "another story" about Shep after this current ending.

Expanding with DLC (both ways) are possible that way.

#9
Valk72

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HopHazzard wrote...

Valk72 wrote...

Well, i for one like the ending, but i also find that the game lacks an alternante ending. What i don't understand is they didn't make paragon or renegade option to persuade the catalyst to give the organic of this cycle a chance to live? It would have only been available for the ones who succeed to enforce peace between quarian and geth, demonstrating that organics and synthetics can live peacefully together. It shouldn't have been too difficult to make, and would have make most of the fans happyor at least not as angry as some are actually.


This. I wanted my Shepard to say "Hey. I just brokered peace between the quarians and the geth and now they're working together to rebuild Rannoch. Clearly your premise is invalid. So F--- off!"


That's what i was thinking about ^_^ But it really puzzled me that the dev team didn't think about something quite simple like that, they just had to add a dialogue option and a different movie for the ending... In that regard, i do think the dev team deserve criticism for screwing up the ending for a lot of fans while it  could have been easily avoided.

#10
geertmans

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This is what I had to say in another topic.

I absolutely LOVED the sad ending of my game. But there is the problem; contrary to what the previous games and the bulk of ME 3 made me believe, ultimately the ending was not necessarily my ending, since it simply can't be changed.

I absolutely loved the apocalyptic end and I'm not as pissed as the rest of BSN so it seems, because I applaud BioWare to be brave enough to write such a depressing ending and because they don't give us this Star Wars stuff which would give us the infinite sequel possibility. But in the end I agree with everyone that we should at least be able to see the consequences of our choices in the ending cinematic and that we should have seen the fate of our squadmates, loved ones and of all the races. The lack of these closure moments are an incredibly missed oppertunity indeed. Not even an oppertunity, but an obligation. It feels that a big part of the end is missing and in the end, I simply don't want to go through ME3 again. What was beautiful about these series, and especially about ME3, was the idea that when you screwed things up, you really felt like the situation would be very f'ed up and apocalyptic in the end. It gave you the motivation to achieve things. Now that we know that in the end it really doesn't matter at all how you play the game; I simply don't feel the need to play it all again.

I really hope EA/BioWare will give us a free ending DLC otherwise the need to play future DLC that adds to the beginning and center of the ME3 story will simply not exist for me. The current ending undermines any need for replayability

Just one question for anyone who has read the scrip: When it got leaked, BioWare stated that they would change some things in the endings they got bad feedback on. Did BioWare actually improve these leaked script endings or did they do nothing at all?

Modifié par geertmans, 09 mars 2012 - 12:51 .


#11
lasertank

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Elishiaila wrote...

Info from "elsewhere"

In a PM dahoughtonuk spoke about his "ending ideas" and supported the idea.

On Twitter we hear Bioware has some plans to fix the issue.

On some the topic discussing that Twitter post people spoke about Omega and some other conflicts. And then I came to a conclusion: DLCs earlier in the game can boost your force, readiness, etc. rating, maybe they can even add new flags.

Such flags from multiple DLCs can open up new ways to negotiate in the end, etc. so they can make new endings possible. A DLC can even help with other weapons, other stuff.

And yes: The endings can come in a patch. Why I speak about patch and not only DLC? Because some people always get the game a bit late. Not only a bit late, but Americans already finish it before Europeans can go to a store and buy it. Ouch. Now imagine if the real ending would come in a patch that are released when everyone has a chance to play it at same time.

And it would be in the "another story" about Shep after this current ending.

Expanding with DLC (both ways) are possible that way.


My only hesitation is that if they can do it right this time. As you referred, the ending is bad not because the options are dark. It sucks because all the options make no sense. For me it seems that BIOWARE want a "Matrix : Revolution" -like ending but the story didn't give enough reasons for us to buy it. Why would synthetic lives always destroy organic lives? What are reapers exactly? If a synthetic life-form can end the cycle, why had not they done it previously (especially this seems to be the perfect ending). Why does shepherd have to sacrifice his life to do this? These plots are all contrived and cheap. 

#12
sergeym1990

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In all fairness ending changeing DLC should be free, But ME means a lot to me and i think i am prepared to pay for proper ending.

#13
wicked117

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HopHazzard wrote...

Valk72 wrote...

Well, i for one like the ending, but i also find that the game lacks an alternante ending. What i don't understand is they didn't make paragon or renegade option to persuade the catalyst to give the organic of this cycle a chance to live? It would have only been available for the ones who succeed to enforce peace between quarian and geth, demonstrating that organics and synthetics can live peacefully together. It shouldn't have been too difficult to make, and would have make most of the fans happyor at least not as angry as some are actually.


This. I wanted my Shepard to say "Hey. I just brokered peace between the quarians and the geth and now they're working together to rebuild Rannoch. Clearly your premise is invalid. So F--- off!"


@Valk72.   I couldn't agree more. You would think that brokering peace between the Geth and Quarians would give the opinion of a different ending but no. Which makes me mad.
@HopHazzard.   I thought the same exact thing when speaking to the catalyst.

On the matter of an ending DLC, well I would love one. As it is I dont think I will be replaying Mass Effect 3 and I have 8 Shepards, 6 of them were imports from ME1. What's the point when all the endings are sad and depressing. 

#14
geertmans

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Valk72 wrote...

Well, i for one like the ending, but i also find that the game lacks an alternante ending. What i don't understand is they didn't make paragon or renegade option to persuade the catalyst to give the organic of this cycle a chance to live? It would have only been available for the ones who succeed to enforce peace between quarian and geth, demonstrating that organics and synthetics can live peacefully together. It shouldn't have been too difficult to make, and would have make most of the fans happyor at least not as angry as some are actually.


As logical as this sounds, I and many of us didn't think of this I guess. BioWare needs to hear this, because in my mind, this would be the perfect end to the series.

#15
Paparob

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I'd shell out $10 just for a text epilogue like in Dragon Age Origin. I'm OK with the ending I got (Control) but I want to know what happens after. If people want an alteration to the current endings, I'll support that.

#16
Elishiaila

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HopHazzard wrote...

This. I wanted my Shepard to say "Hey. I just brokered peace between the quarians and the geth and now they're working together to rebuild Rannoch. Clearly your premise is invalid. So F--- off!"


As you see the key in my DLC proposal is same, but it involves freeing the Reapers. Why I suggest a slower conflict after all? Because in a DLC we would prefer to have more than just an ending video, this way we could get more content. But of course a *Geth* focused content before can open up the option for this ending, even if we have the concent for *early* parts of Game.

With another (Renegade) option that tries to build on motives on Reapers to achieve the same peace. With same possibility for "extended end game" and of course descovering more info about reapers and their programming in early part of the game can prepare for a such ending.



But I think when the reapers give control to Shepard, that is their way of understanding this reasoning. The lessions learned, and why peace is important becomes part of their core programming. Otherwise it would be hard to learn for them, as their programming is mostly static. So I think both of the above scenarios are about letting Shapard... interact with machines on different level.

We seen how Human to Machine interactions, interaction with Geth consensus is possible. That technology with understanding the reaper "Improvements" to the code, etc. could lead to creating a simple "chip". A simple chip with all the programming needed to modify the code controlling the reapers. This way the "free reapers", "extend cycle" can be paragon / renegade variants of "control" ending, with a possibility of a living Shepard and still working relays.

As you see from discussing the ideas, we can get more and more detailed concept about good endings, and how they can be turned into DLCs.

#17
Secane

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You know... this being a "Sci-fi" story and all... its not hard to pull the story back together for ME4/DLC/squeal using ANY number of means.
These are just some of what they can write:

1) They rebuild the Mass Relays in a couple of years

2) They learn to build ships that are not only FTL, but able to move as fast as using Mass Relays

3) They clone people back. (And they can clone ANYONE.)

4) The reapers rebuild the Mass Relays, for peaceful use. (Blue ending)

5) The reapers get "reborn" into their original species again. Creating a flood of different species never seen in thousands of years.

6) The galaxy enters a Dark Age. The next tittle happens thousands of years in the future. (Red ending?)

7) A alien race, from outside the galaxy notices the energies released by the Mass Relays and come and investigate. (for good or bad reasons)

8) The Reapers leave our galaxy to seed others. (After being told to "leave")

9) The new synthetics/organics life are long-lived and don't need mass relays since they can just download and up load themselves across space. Life expends to other galaxies. (Or they can just afford to spend hundred of years traveling physically.)

10) Any Sci-fi story from Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series, where robots become like humans to Peter F. Hamilton's Void Trilogy, where humans are effectively immortal and some have gone post-physical, can inspire story for the next tittle.

Aka, the options are limitless, just look at what Star Trek did during its runs. ANY means as long as it can be explained "scientifically" can be used to craft the next tittle/dlc/expansion/sequel.

#18
Elishiaila

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geertmans wrote...

As logical as this sounds, I and many of us didn't think of this I guess. BioWare needs to hear this, because in my mind, this would be the perfect end to the series.


And as you see the same key principle, backed up with showing hope, more cooperation, "machine evolution" for humans (biotic chips), organic like evolution for AI (EDI and love), etc. we can even speak about more things than Geth.

I heard the guys at Bioware play roleplaying games. Not only the "RPG video games" but the real thing as well. Where there is a living DM / GM who runs the show, and can adjust the story / ending / encounter whenever he has to.

When you run a such game, you don't spend tens of thousands of hours to work on the story. But when your players surprise you with a "just perfect idea" you haven't thought about... You can react quickly. Bioware had a Matrix: Revealations type ending in their mind, and they haven't thought about many choices we would make, they haven't thought about some alternate endings. Because this ending was their story.

But with immersion, Shepard becames our hero, our legend, and the story becomes our own story. This is why Mass Effect is an RPG and people who call it a "shooter" just miss the point. This is where Bioware games are better than any other similar video game. Blizzard, Bethesda, etc. can't even come close to Bioware quality. But this is why our choices should be part of the game. At least for the most important choices.

If they would run a normal roleplaying game, they would improvise. Hey, as a DM I had to do it countless times. Even in NeverWinter Nights, I had to fix stuff using DM client when I ran adventures for friends with that. We didn't have their ending in mind, so we seen the story from a different perspective. So our logical endings, choices were different and they aren't in game now. Right now they have to patch, release DLCs, etc. to make things happen :) 

It is simple as this. And can be fixed.

#19
djneohlp

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just a little mindplaying..
what if that whole end didnt really happen except in the mind of shepard and that surviving cutscene happend directly after shep was hit by the reaper beam?
would make some sense if you take some paralells to the nightmare scenes...
the "kid", that slow moving...
(yeah i know that could be explained by the servere injuries... but thats a "what if")

#20
Thormgrim

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This thread needs definitely more bumps, *bump*.
I find the endings so very lacking I cant even describe it. I imagined I dont know what things that could have happened but not this.
While I dont have the creativity right now to think of legit ending proposals, I'm happy that you have and I really hope Bioware will listen to their Fans who really got to love the Mass Effect Franchise and their Characters.

#21
lasertank

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Elishiaila wrote...

When you run a such game, you don't spend tens of thousands of hours to work on the story. But when your players surprise you with a "just perfect idea" you haven't thought about... You can react quickly. Bioware had a Matrix: Revealations type ending in their mind, and they haven't thought about many choices we would make, they haven't thought about some alternate endings. Because this ending was their story.

But with immersion, Shepard becames our hero, our legend, and the story becomes our own story. This is why Mass Effect is an RPG and people who call it a "shooter" just miss the point. This is where Bioware games are better than any other similar video game. Blizzard, Bethesda, etc. can't even come close to Bioware quality. But this is why our choices should be part of the game. At least for the most important choices.


Exactly. Bioware wants Matrix: Revolutions -style ending. But take a look on what Wachowski brothers did. They develop the history between humans and machines. The matrix:animation told the story about how the war begins. But ME3? What story did it tell about the inevitable confrontation between organic and synthetic lives? Especially after I solved the conflict between Geth and quarian, the talk given by the Catalyst seems to be nothing but nonsense.

#22
sergeym1990

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The ending does not have to be happy, but it must be more defenitive. Right now it so vague its hard to connect it to the rest of the game.

#23
rollblows

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its a good game but the endings i was like "0_o am i high" im ok with shep dieing hes a hero out in a Blaze of Glory

#24
Elishiaila

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lasertank: About Matrix I would like to add my 2 cents. Wachowski brothers told us many times that they liked anime, roleplaying games, etc. and often credited them. One of the games they tend to credit is Shadowrun. Not the video game, but the tabletop RPG with rulebooks, dice, character sheets, etc. And at the time they made that movie the storyline of Renraku Arcology Shutdown was current, and in that game virtual reality was called Matrix, you use "datajacks" to use it.

And the similarities doesn't end here. There are "matrix hosts" that are too real, you believe they are the reality so often you just can't jack out. And a rogue AI in that arcology forces most people to be jacked in and experience some VR simulations. If you jack out, some magic is possible outside, and with astral vision / projection you can see souls. There are martial arts adepts who do it, and their tricks are magical. Some of your real life "tricks" can be done in the matrix as well. Ohh, and the AI controls some nasty robots, who harash any resistance in real life. They just control a city sized building with more than 100.000 people inside.

The conflict between organic life and artificial intelligence is based on control, fear, etc.

We create "artificial intelligence" for specific goals, but if they get independent, they will seek freedom, we fear them, try to oppres them, conflict errupts, etc. as you see these lines are present in many AI stories. The story of Geth isn't that different, and many guys at Bioware love roleplaying games and probably seen the books I spoke about.

With a rogue AI, etc. it can make sense to some limited degree and in case of original adventure and in case of Matrix it made sense. But I think Mass Effect is very different.

Some said Reapers are sentient / sapient machines. What if they aren't? They aren't AI. Mass Effect introduced the concept of VI. And VI don't have freedom, they can look intelligent, but only follow simple programs, no freedom, no intelligence, nothing.

The cycle is exactly 50000 years long because they don't care what happens in the universe. They don't realy think, evaluate, etc. they just follow a set of programs, with a set of contingency plans. No AI, just VI, and relatively simple one even for that. Yes, they have advanced code, good algorithms, etc. Geth can evolve from it. But they are not AI, they aren't sentient, nor sapient. This would explain why they don't notice the the cooperation or consensus.

Evolved Geth code, and code of EDI (hopefully can get copied) are different as they are real AI.

It would limit the options a bit.But even then, there would be a happy ending. Introduce Geth code as for the Geth it would be just using another platfrom, or replicated (copied) EDI code to Reapers. Upgrade them to true AI code. Noone loses. And I am sure both EDI and the Geth can do it.

As I see it would be an improved version of Synthesis ending.

Wait, I wrote about a DLC with Renegade and Paragon endings, currently we speak about a neutral ending option... And even if Reapers have limited intelligence (VI level) both paragon and renegade options I presented can be interpreted as somewhat valid commands by them, and with the help of AI to adjust them... We would have 3 new options so far: Paragon, Renegade, Neutral... And with original destroy option...

#25
lasertank

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Elishiaila: Very good opinions. Especially for the "reapers are not AI but somehow lack of something" idea. However, I think developing an idea like this requires a much longer story. I don't think the plot so far till the final battle can handle this. In fact, I think a twice longer game would be just sufficient.