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Does anyone else feel the homosexuality (and the sexuality in general) is a little forced?


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#1
Templar_Blademaster

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 Before I begin on my tl;dr rant, I just want to say I am very indifferent when it comes to homosexuality. I take the stance of what you want is your own business, as long as I am not involved. I have gay, lesbian, bisexual, and all sorts of friends with all sorts of interests both usual and bizarre. I have been supportive of the idea of homosexuality being represented in games for the longest time, and while I applaud BioWare's efforts to try and make it a bit more known and represented, they could have done it more tastefully.

Ok, rant time. First off, the sexuality in ME3 in general seems a bit more forced than it was previous. Whereas Joker and EDI in Mass Effect 2 was implied that there was some chemistry going on, here it is pretty much obvious that they want to go at it, not a simple romance or even an intimate relationship, but actual bang buddies. Like they skipped a whole step and now want at it like rabbits. 1) She is a robot still, he is a human with fragile bones, and I know that gets brought up, but when she first goes into the cockpit and he makes mention about how attracted he is to her, there isn't even a "dude, she is a robot, how would that work?" thing brought up. Everyone seems entirely ok. I know if I suddenly had a thing going on for my toaster or my car people would flash me weird looks. I understand there is an acceptance that BioWare was going for, that in the future people probably have all kinds of robots for all sorts of pleasures, but still, shouldn't there be an education step instead of a general acceptance?

Second part of the forcing sexuality. I was expecting Liara to feel betrayed over my romancing Jack in 2 (even if I didn't ask for Jack, she basically forced herself on me, which kind of ticked me off, but that is for another time). Instead, she was very accepting of me and Jack, and after I told her that the romance there was over, all Liara basically said was, "oh, ok, wanna have some private time later?" That is it? Like we skipped the acceptance or the building of trust and are ok with it? I'm sure there is more to the story than this that I am missing, but it just feels like it is forced here.

Ok, now for the main meat of the article, the homosexuality. I won't even touch on Shepard same sex option where saying no is the renegade, but rather the other things I have noticed. The shuttle pilot was handled well, at least from what I have seen where he says that he lost his loved ones, including his husband. However, the way the line was delivered highlights the husband part, as if BioWare wanted to say, "He is gay, see, he has a husband, he is gay. Accept him for being gay, he is your shuttle pilot and he gets you things from the market. Did we mention he is gay?" I know I may overexaggerate that a bit, but it just feels too forced about his homosexuality. Then a friend showed me a part on the citadel with two lesbians holding hands publicly. I'm ok with that, it shows that, in a future with a female monogendered species hooking up with females from other races is ok, being publicly gay is acceptable. What I wasn't ok with is the convo that they had. They were discussing how to tell the husband of one of the women in the couple... I sat there for about 5 minutes with my jaw slacked open at what kind of message this sends to people. That suddenly if you are an adulterer it is ok as long as you are gay or in a same sex relationship? Once again I know I am not getting the whole story here, but still, it comes off as a forced scenario to try and put out "hey, we have gay people in our game, deal with it and accept it"

Now, in closing, I understand both sides of what BioWare is trying to do. 1) They are trying to make homosexuality more acceptable in games. 2) Game development and publishing is a business, and they are trying to get a niche market that is pretty much untapped. I am not going to touch on 2, that is a different story for another thread. 1 however, I once again applaud BioWare for attempting something that hasn't been widely explored, but there are problems with this. It feels less like I am playing an epic and more like I am apart of a love story, or worse, a fan fiction. I've been invested in Mass Effect for 2 (and part through 3) games now not because of the love, but because of the tale being told, the rich lore. I understand in most stories there is romance, but the sex is only in a scene or two, other then that there are scenes where once can see the connection of said couple, but they aren't constantly talking about sex or their love life. I paid for an RPG and a space epic, not a trashy romance novel. On the side of the homosexuality, it has been done in games in a less forced way, and more of a character's backstory than in their actual dialogue and forced out there like an awkward scar on the character. Examples of homosexual or sexual orientation in question characters in games include:

  • Flea from Chrono Trigger. It wasn't until I was older that I figured out Flea may not be a woman. Yet it did not define Flea's wholly. Rather, it was just another small point on the character. His/her sexuality was not forced upon us, it didn't take priority, it was just a characteristic of Flea.
  • Volgin from Metal Gear Solid 3. Yes, this is a bit more forced, but it is only in one scene where he grabs the players crotch to determine that the character is not his lover. However, the homosexuality does not take priority for him either, rather is helps to define his character. You'd figure a sadist like him would not have a loving romance, yet during his boss fight if you wear Raikov's mask, he pauses for a moment in hesitation, showing that underneath his sadistic nature actually lies someone who can love. Yet Kojima did not force this side upon us, but rather showed it through subtle context. On that note, many characters throughout the series have been implied as gay or not straight, but they have not been forced upon us.
  • Fallout 2 had same sex marriage. I realize Fallout 1 and 2 were more satrical pieces and black comedy, but still, they had same sex marriage (whether it should be taken seriously or humorously is up to interpretation). Once again it was not forced upon the player, it did not dominate news headlines, it was just there for the player to discover. It was not forced upon them.
  • Tommy from Indigo Prophecy. I realize the game falls flat at the conclusion, but this scene still shocks me and was handled pretty well. The female lead Carla keeps getting emails from Tommy throughout the game, and we are left to assume Tommy is her boyfriend. At the end when he does show up though, it is revealed through casual conversation about Carla's lack of a relationship that he is dating a banker and that there are plenty of good men in New York. This falls closer to the shuttle pilot from Mass Effect 3 in that it is revealed in dialogue rather than implied, but here it was more in context and helped to further the scene. Tommy was assuring her that if he, a homosexual man, could find love, that there was probably someone out there for her too. Yet no one seems to remember this scene.
I could go on, the list of homosexuality in gaming is endless, fully of implied sexuality, out there sexuality, etc, but I would rather get everyone's input on this. How did you all feel about the change in how romance and sexuality was handled in Mass Effect 3?

Modifié par Templar_Blademaster, 08 mars 2012 - 07:02 .


#2
Husher315

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No, you just really went on a rant for nothing...

#3
Taleroth

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I still say ME2 Tali was creepy.

#4
Rhayth

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I really didn't feel like it was...like Cortez was very open and that is fine, but it wasn't like DA2 were you were forced into 2 options of dialogue of yes or no. Like i'm used to in bioware being able to nicely say no. in the first instance with Anders you have 2 options. Oh I love it, or oh f you.

So personally I didn't feel it was forced, but it was open the way it should be. Personally the balance of sexual orientation seemed more authentic to me in this one. I liked how it was presented.

#5
Naltair

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I thought it was well done actually, Steve Cortez and I are bros and we knew where we stood.

#6
Militarized

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I could have gone for some more forced sexuality with Jack... only romance option with no love/culmination scene FTL.

I dunno man, they handled the shuttle pilot awesomely and that's as far into the homosexuality as I got/saw so it was really tasteful to me. They did drill it in a bit though.

#7
tangalin

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I didn't see anything wrong with it, nor did I hear any emphasis put on the parts that made their preferences known... To me it sounded like people talking in a society without prejudice against them. I would have imagined Cortez sounding exactly the same saying wife if he had been straight.

Pretty sure you are just projecting your prejudice (despite you claiming you aren't) onto what they are saying.

#8
Templar_Blademaster

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tangalin wrote...

I didn't see anything wrong with it, nor did I hear any emphasis put on the parts that made their preferences known... To me it sounded like people talking in a society without prejudice against them. I would have imagined Cortez sounding exactly the same saying wife if he had been straight.

Pretty sure you are just projecting your prejudice (despite you claiming you aren't) onto what they are saying.


Probably. It may just be me at this point aggrevated that the homosexuality is actually a selling point in this game, whereas in most games it is just added to give a character some depth.

#9
Rhayth

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tangalin wrote...

I didn't see anything wrong with it, nor did I hear any emphasis put on the parts that made their preferences known... To me it sounded like people talking in a society without prejudice against them. I would have imagined Cortez sounding exactly the same saying wife if he had been straight.

Pretty sure you are just projecting your prejudice (despite you claiming you aren't) onto what they are saying.


I agree here...he just was very natural and was like I lost my husband...and i'm like That sucks bro, i'm looking for my alien hottie.

#10
Khevan77

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If Cortez had said "I lost my wife" instead of "I lost my husband" we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would have been a sad part of his backstory, but it wouldn't garner any more attention than that, as it should be. But since it's a homosexual reference, I think it's being given more importance than it really should be. Bioware isn't shoving it in our faces, Cortez is openly gay, it's accepted in 2186 that this is nothing extraordinary, so why shouldn't he talk about it?

In case anyone reads more into this than I intended, this is in no way meant as an attack or anything resembling an attack on anyone. I just wanted to point out the double standard here. If Cortez's remarks were about a heterosexual relationship, we wouldn't be having an issue. But since they're about a homosexual relationship, it's an issue? That is a double standard that I think really shouldn't exist.

#11
Taleroth

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Templar_Blademaster wrote...

Probably. It may just be me at this point aggrevated that the homosexuality is actually a selling point in this game, whereas in most games it is just added to give a character some depth.

Character romances have been a selling point in Bioware games ever since Baldur's Gate 2's popularity. Homosexuality is just an expansion of that.

#12
paralitos

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i never had a LI in mass effect i just wanted to destory the reapers, but there is always someone pushing dialog to make you start a LI, it seems that everybody on the normandy is h....y as hell, i guess travelling in space does that to you...

#13
Sashimi_taco

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No, because i'm not afraid of human sexuality. I accidentally got into a situation for the lesbian romance but i just opted out of it and the only reason it worried me is because I wanted to be faithful to kaidan.

I have yet to see any sort of forced sexuality. Gamer's fears of any sexuality that is not a woman is astounding.

#14
loungeshep

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No it doesn't seem forced at all.

#15
Templar_Blademaster

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Ok, I may have jumped the gun a bit with Cortez, and I apologize for that one. He is the more acceptable and natural about it than most of the other instances I have encountered.

As I said a couple posts up, and think most of my prejudice at this point isn't at sexual orientation, but rather at the fact that BioWare has made it more of a selling point or a hot topic than just putting it in and leaving it at that. I understand doing homosexuality in games, as I pointed above, it has been done before without much fanfare or noise over it. Yet, in the months before ME3's launch, BioWare has constantly been touting homosexuality like it is a major selling point that will gain them an extra million sales.

I would have been fine with Cortez, but suddenly in a franchise where for the past 2 games there were light homosexual and sexual orientation tones suddenly goes to an increasing amount of not just homosexuality, but sexuality in general. Not 5 hours in and once again, EDI and Joker, EDI and the Tech Specialist (she remarked before she knew EDI was an AI that she was attracted to EDI's voice), the lesbian couple on the citadel, Liara and my Shep, and I am sure these aren't the only occurances that will happen with sex and romance. I remember in Mass Effect 1 and 2 the sex and romance were usually saved for when you actually had a budding relationship with a squad mate, and I realize this is the end of a trilogy and you want to see your romance pushed further, but I would rather have it more of a backstory or minor subplot than have my romance with Liara as a major plot point.

#16
jlb524

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I didn't feel as if they were forcing heterosexuality by having Thane speak of his dead wife so...no.

#17
Templar_Blademaster

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Taleroth wrote...

Templar_Blademaster wrote...

Probably. It may just be me at this point aggrevated that the homosexuality is actually a selling point in this game, whereas in most games it is just added to give a character some depth.

Character romances have been a selling point in Bioware games ever since Baldur's Gate 2's popularity. Homosexuality is just an expansion of that.


I really don't remember in any BioWare game before Mass Effect 1 having a big news story over the romance options. I also don't remember Baldur's Gate 2 being remembered for the LIs. I remember BG2 being remembered for the good story, freedom to develop your character, interparty banter (not just between you and one member, but between all the members equally), and Jon Irenicus.

Sure, there was romance of both kinds in Jade Empire, and yet no one touts it for doing that, and it certainly did not make a big deal out of it.

Modifié par Templar_Blademaster, 08 mars 2012 - 07:29 .


#18
GhostlyMaiden

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Mildly surprised. Then indifference. Haven't even finished my first playthrough so far. In the previous games, homosexuality was mostly implied at best. Then I talk to Cortez and he says "my husband" just like that. First thought was "They actually did that?" I know plenty of guys who'd go "OMG GAY!" or get that "I've got nothing against gays, but stay away from me" reaction. Kudos to BioWare for actually having the balls to put that in.

I did not have the same reaction as OP did in regards to the woman, her mistress, and her husband. It just seemed like a standard adulterer scenario and didn't appear to condone it. Especially later in their conversation where there seems to be atleast a 50% chance that those two might break up.

There was also another instance in the Purgatory Bar where this one woman could not figure out that the guy she was talking with was gay. That had been amusing to say the least. Even made me scream "He. Is. Gay!" at the screen. I wonder how many others didn't realize it either.

EDI and Joker, saw it coming. Simple as that.

Traynor shower scene is hot, but not worth dumping Garrus for. Keeping a save on the side, however...

Ultimately, I'm indifferent. I don't see the difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality besides the genitalia involved.

#19
jlb524

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Templar_Blademaster wrote...
Yet, in the months before ME3's launch, BioWare has constantly been touting homosexuality like it is a major selling point that will gain them an extra million sales.


Where have they constantly done this at?

Templar_Blademaster wrote...
I remember in Mass Effect 1 and 2 the sex and romance were usually saved for when you actually had a budding relationship with a squad mate, and I realize this is the end of a trilogy and you want to see your romance pushed further, but I would rather have it more of a backstory or minor subplot than have my romance with Liara as a major plot point.


I fail to see how the Liara romance is a major plot-point...

#20
Taleroth

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Templar_Blademaster wrote...

I also don't remember Baldur's Gate 2 being remembered for the LIs. 

You weren't paying attention. Do not get Aerie fans and Jaheira fans into a room. And girls were kinda pissed that they only got Anomen.

Viconia master race reporting.

#21
Templar_Blademaster

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Taleroth wrote...

Templar_Blademaster wrote...

I also don't remember Baldur's Gate 2 being remembered for the LIs. 

You weren't paying attention. Do not get Aerie fans and Jaheira fans into a room. And girls were kinda pissed that they only got Anomen.

Viconia master race reporting.


Well, in all of my social circles, none of them (even the fans of Aerie and Jaheira) really made much of a deal which was superior. Most of our time was more spent discussing the drawn out prologue of 2, the epic music, and Jon. Also discussing about why no project that attempted to bring both BGs into a 3d space has succeeded.

#22
HaiknEdge

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tangalin wrote...

I didn't see anything wrong with it, nor did I hear any emphasis put on the parts that made their preferences known... To me it sounded like people talking in a society without prejudice against them. I would have imagined Cortez sounding exactly the same saying wife if he had been straight.

Pretty sure you are just projecting your prejudice (despite you claiming you aren't) onto what they are saying.


Agreed with you here. While he talks about his husband quite a bit, Cortez doesn't seem even remotely defined by his sexuality; he's still an Alliance soldier first. It's not like he goes around saying, "I joyed the military because I'm gay, I miss my husband because I'm gay, I procure goods because I'm gay."; it's more along the lines of, "I'm in the military, I miss my husband, and I procure goods. Oh, and I'm gay."

#23
demicraftgod

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when Cortez starts off with something about his *husband* in like the *first* conversation when you can explore the normandy after mars, I raised my eyebrows and rolled my eyes...
Yup, totally forced stuff
It's okay to be straight up I suppose, but I really don't *need* to know that Cortez had a *husband*...and how he comes off as hitting on shepard later in game, if you do paragon stuff during he's scenes...

#24
Sbri

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Templar_Blademaster wrote...

 What I wasn't ok with is the convo that they had. They were discussing how to tell the husband of one of the women in the couple... I sat there for about 5 minutes with my jaw slacked open at what kind of message this sends to people. That suddenly if you are an adulterer it is ok as long as you are gay or in a same sex relationship?


I never got this impression at all.  I was also outraged (but that's my own personal issues re:adultery), just I never got the feeling it was being condoned.  It was simply being presented.  What our reactions to it are or our own.

#25
Wrath of Bastila Shan

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Can't say that any of this junk is a surprise or it snuck up on us, OP. It seems that alot of people (not all, though) wanted BioWare to put more, and more, and more sex and love triangles into this game- hetero or homosexual. I just feel like i'm one of the very few who thinks sexual relationships doesn't seem right in a video game. I really want to portray My Shep as a true leader, not emotional and engaging in a sexual relationship with a teammate. Stuff like that can bring discord, hatred, and strife, even in real life. I sometimes am afraid to initiate conversation with anyone, thinking i might trigger a love scene right there and then.

Just like Paralitos said about 12 or 13 posts above me, I too never had a LI in Mass Effect. I play because of the great story: putting aside differences by building friendships and alliances in unifying the galaxy's races to stop and destroy the threat of the Reapers.

Modifié par Wrath of Bastila Shan, 08 mars 2012 - 08:15 .