30 réponses à ce sujet

[jwburks1976]

Hello, everyone. It has been some time... I don't remember how long ago it was, but I came here asking for advice several times before. I have finished this game many times, but not nearly enough as most of you. I recall playing through as a Monk, a Mage (yes, just a plain old elven mage), an Inquisitor, a Swashbuckler, and lastly, a Sorcerer. My favorite class had been the monk, because I was in love with his magic resistance, fast speed, and crazy damage, but all of you convinced me to try the Sorcerer out, and you gave convincing arguments why the Monk was a sissy in comparison. I remember having a long discussion about Sorcerers because they seem to be the most powerful class in the game, period. After my last playthrough, I would agree. I long studied this web site: http://www.sorcerers...erence/Main.htm

I examined it thoroughly and made all of my spell choices based on it. I cannot remember, because it has been so long ago, but I saved my character file. What I do remember is that I kicked the holy living crap out of everything, more than I ever have before in all my years of playing this game. And now... it's very difficult to play this game as something else, despite not having tried that many classes.

Okay, that's not true. I did "try" a few of them, but I was so unimpressed that I quit before I was finished. The Assassin would be one of them, and the Cleric and Druid classes seemed rather dull to me. I don't think that "support" classes are my thing, and it was difficult enough to stand in the background as a Sorcerer, at first (but I was VERY happy later when he was killing everything on the screen, single-handedly).

Okay, so here I am, again, trying to decide what to do, and it has come down to this: A Wild Mage, or a Kensai/Mage (or a Beserker/Mage). I had once toyed with the idea of Kensai/Thief, but I don't think I could live without mage spells ever again. But either way, I'm going to miss my Sorcerer. The trouble is... which one is better? The Wild Mage appeals to me, but the wild magic surges make me nervous. The Kensai/Mage may be more about a warrior who buffs himself with spells, and how would he compare to the power of a Sorcerer? So yes... I'm looking for something powerful and fun, but I wonder if it will be possible to ever top the Sorcerer.

P.S. I have never finished Baldur's Gate 1. It's sad, but true. Something in life always came up and interrupted me. I was thinking that either way, I could level through Baldur's Gate as a Fighter or Mage, and convert once I import into BG2.

So... any advice, from anyone here, who has played it all, and knows better?

[corey_russell]

I suspect the sorcerer is the strongest class -- but I have heard of Kensai/thiefs just doing ridiculous damage. And if you have a friendly arcane party member that can put spirit armor on and you can also tank.

Personally though, I've always enjoyed my level 7/9 fighters (any kit, even just plain fighter) dualed to mages. I had a level 9 fighter dualed to a druid once, and he became almost ridiculous in ToB with all the powerful summons he could bring up plus call lightnings and insect plagues and had respectable melee as well.

[Enuhal]

Hey,

If you don't play a no-reload game, Wild Surges are really not that much of a problem since they rarely result in your death (especially if you keep chaos shield up for important battles). Wild Mages are definetly fun, though you should know what you're doing if you're playing Baldurs Gate 1 for the first time and your PC is a wizard - it can be quite difficult.

Fighter/Mages duals, like corey_russell wrote, are extremely powerful and very playable in BG1 (though the Kensai is more difficult to start with if you're new to BG1, so dualing a berserker is propably easier and more effective).

A kensage or berserker/mage can theoretically be used as a pure arcane spellcaster with more hp in BG2, but the melee capabilites of such a character allow for more versatile play. Generally, any kind of fighter/arcane spellcaster combination makes for a great tank with spells like MI, Stoneskin, PfMW etc., though while they can deal a nice amount of melee damage, it can't be compared to a class getting fighter or thief HLAs later on in late SoA and ToB. Still, for soloing it's very useful to have. Still, later on most of his power will come from arcane spells again.

Which brings me to a multiclass fighter/mage, a class which allows you to get fighter HLAs as well, making it what I'd consider even more powerful in the late game, so mabye you should consider it if power is what you're looking for. Great offensive and defensive capabilites. An alternative would actually be the blade, with limited arcane spellcasting but the different and more tactical bard HLAs and still very good melee effectiveness, or a mage/thief, with even more tactical components and backstabbing.

Still, if you're new to BG1 I'd recommend a Berserker/Mage, and I'd propably dual the Berserker in BG2, not in BG1, for the sake of making the first game easier for you.

Modifié par Enuhal, 08 mars 2012 - 10:53 .

[corey_russell]

A Fighter/Mage multi does get fighter HLAs (eventually), but one of the biggest advantages of the fighter dualed to mage is that they get level 9 spells MUCH sooner, doubly so if solo. But certainly both are strong and flexible classes.

[morbidest2]

For a change of pace, what about a Bard? It's not a power player, but has an interesting occupation quest and would be quite a challenge.

[ussnorway]

I personally consider the sorcerer to be a bit limited (about equivalent to a normal cleric) but how strong or weak any class is comes down to play style eg. A blade won’t last 10 seconds in a magic dual against a sorceress but he can easily push his AC down to -20 by the time you go fetch sis from Spellhold… add in the ability to spell buff as well as using pretty much any item/ weapon in the game & what you end up with is the perfect tanking class.

Spell slingers;

My pick as the BEST (pure magic power) of the bg1-bg2 spell slingers would have to be a human Ranger duelled to Cleric at level two. This young lady can cast any divine spell in the game and does it whilst wearing armour including shields and helms.

Advantages;

The correct spells make Melee combat perfectly doable… same as a pure fighter.
Devine spells are just as powerful as arcane… although the learning curve is probably steeper.
Early access to stealth makes some challenges of the game considerably simpler.

Disadvantages;

Have to be good aligned… IMO evil Clerics are more powerful because they take control with their ‘Turn’ ability but that’s getting into more advanced tactics.

Some people consider the no-blade restriction to be a major disadvantage but two of the best weapons in the game are blunt i.e. CF (hammer) and FoA.

The stats requirements for this character are the highest of any class in the game… somewhat less of an issue if you have access to the extra bg1 tome improvements.

When to dual?

I always dual at level two because I play this class as a pure caster & Clerics <at least the ones that want to be able to turn anything> suffer from splitting their experience away. Other people prefer the extra hp/ #attacks that waiting grants them… this comes down to a play style issue but it’s also worth noticing that pure THAC0 can be raised by way of spells.

[Krazy Solo]

Interesting, I would like to add that a Mage/Thief multiclass especially Gnome version can be extremely tactic oriented if not cheesy. Although most of the player base I've read from seem to dislike the slow spell progression, besides that M/T are like pess against enemies since they can backstabb at will with mislead/timestops/etc....

Then there is another least traveled path but in the end can be a caster bane so to speak. Wizard Slayer 13/ Thief dual-class. Strange enough this combo can lock down casters very fast. If not out right killing them on there own.

This is just a few least played options that are pretty strong mid to late game.

[Thrar]

Have you tried parties of less than 5 or 6 people? I found that with a big party, I often develop one main tactic using two or three characters, with the rest just as support or for those encounters where the main tactic won't work.
With a smaller party, you can focus on using everyone's strengths. I've had a lot of fun with parties of two or three members. It limits your options and makes you think more about using otherwise rarely used spells, items or tactics. It can be more challenging, but as long as you have a thief of some kind for traps/locks, you can essentially handle every part of the game.

Combinations I've played and remember:
Archer, Anomen (romance), Yoshi/Imoen. Machine-gunning down everything from the back.
Fighter/Thief, Aerie (romance). Added Imoen later for roleplaying reasons. F/T is very strong and tactically apt, and Aerie receiving this much XP can blast everything to bits if needed.
Barbarian, Valygar, Yoshi/Imoen. My current (on hold) No Reload, mostly tactical melee. No major problems until chapter 6 so far.

I personally find solos too tedious, I prefer the variety that comes with having more than one character. Still, there are a lot of people who like it and enjoy coming up with creative solutions for the limitations of their class and discovering their potential. It is possible to solo the whole game with every class or kit (has been done), but of course some are more challenging than others.

[jwburks1976]

What a hectic day this has been. I'm sorry I haven't been here sooner.

I appreciate the advice... but I do have a question about dual-classing, that I can't seem to find the answer for. If you dual a fighter-type class at level 13, his base THAC0 would be 8. If you dual him/her to a mage or thief, would it ever improve beyond that? According to the charts, I would say no. But I swear in all of my TOB games, even Jan Jansen's THAC0 eventually reached 0. Hm... I am so confused right now.

Anyway, I will either take a bard or fighter through BG1. I have never finished BG1 before, and while it may be easier to take a fighter, I have not been able to roll high enough scores to make an acceptable Kensai/Mage yet. My sorcerer in TOB has Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 18, and Cha 18. That may be the highest I've ever rolled. I must have been out of my mind. I may break down and roll a bard, and change it into a Blade in BG2. I hope the bard is worth a damn in BG1...

Either way, I could use some help for weapon proficiencies in BG2 for either class. I've never rolled a bard before in my life, except back when I played pen & paper (fun times). In my last two games I was a monk and a sorcerer, and weapon proficiencies were not my biggest concern. Now, it would be. And in BG1, I remember weapons breaking constantly. It was annoying. I never finished the game, but I do remember this happening a bit too much.

Unless anyone has any advice on classes for BG1 into BG2 and beyond...

[Grond0]

jwburks1976 wrote...
I appreciate the advice... but I do have a question about dual-classing, that I can't seem to find the answer for. If you dual a fighter-type class at level 13, his base THAC0 would be 8. If you dual him/her to a mage or thief, would it ever improve beyond that? According to the charts, I would say no. But I swear in all of my TOB games, even Jan Jansen's THAC0 eventually reached 0. Hm... I am so confused right now.

Jan is a multi-class not a dual class, so his fighter level will continue increasing.  Dual class characters never continue in their old class after dualling.  Only humans can dual in the standard game.

Anyway, I will either take a bard or fighter through BG1. I have never finished BG1 before, and while it may be easier to take a fighter, I have not been able to roll high enough scores to make an acceptable Kensai/Mage yet. My sorcerer in TOB has Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 18, and Cha 18. That may be the highest I've ever rolled. I must have been out of my mind. I may break down and roll a bard, and change it into a Blade in BG2. I hope the bard is worth a damn in BG1...

Apart from clerics and druids wisdom is virtually useless in the game.  Charisma helps a bit, but can easily be done without.  This makes it pretty easy to roll high scores for other stats.  The only character class I have a problem in rolling good scores for is a fighter intended to dual to a druid (meaning scores of 17 in wisdom and charisma are required).

Either way, I could use some help for weapon proficiencies in BG2 for either class. I've never rolled a bard before in my life, except back when I played pen & paper (fun times). In my last two games I was a monk and a sorcerer, and weapon proficiencies were not my biggest concern. Now, it would be. And in BG1, I remember weapons breaking constantly.

Standard weapons do break sometimes, but magic ones don't and after a while you are likely to use those.  If you just carry a spare weapon in the early stages of the game you shouldn't have a problem.  Weapon proficiencies don't matter a great deal for a bard as they can't specialise anyway.  It is handy to have proficiency in at least one missile weapon though as using missile attacks make BG1 much easier.

[jwburks1976]

Jan is an Illusionist/Thief, and Thief THAC0 is supposed to stop improving around 10, I think, at level 21. Maybe he is not the one I am thinking of, but Anomen, a dual-classed Fighter/Cleric. He can also continue to specialize past ++, all the way to +++++, even though he isn't leveling as a fighter anymore.

Wisdom isn't useless if you like using Wish. You need 18 for Wish to give you the "rest my party without sleeping" option. It also improves your saving throws against things that affect the mind.

[ussnorway]

jwburks1976 wrote...
I appreciate the advice... but I do have a question about dual-classing, that I can't seem to find the answer for. If you dual a fighter-type class at level 13, his base THAC0 would be 8. If you dual him/her to a mage or thief, would it ever improve beyond that? According to the charts, I would say no. But I swear in all of my TOB games, even Jan Jansen's THAC0 eventually reached 0. Hm... I am so confused right now.

NO your THAC0 would never improve...  Your character would get access to his old Fighter abilities at level 14 & would progress normally* (hp, THAC0, able to wear armour & weapon Proficiencies) from that point. For the sake of argument let’s say you pick thief & gain 1350000 more exp points to reach level 14.

* Some restrictions still carry over & unfortunately a thief THAC0 is capped however you could start as a thief (any type) and dual to a Fighter in order to get around this but other restrictions are terminal e.g. a Fighter that duals to Cleric will lose the ability to use swords forever because of the Cleric limitation to crushing (no edged or pointed) weapons only.

p.s. Only pure class or dual class Fighters can achieve Grand Mastery in the vanilla game.

[Grond0]

jwburks1976 wrote...
Jan is an Illusionist/Thief, and Thief THAC0 is supposed to stop improving around 10, I think, at level 21. Maybe he is not the one I am thinking of, but Anomen, a dual-classed Fighter/Cleric. He can also continue to specialize past ++, all the way to +++++, even though he isn't leveling as a fighter anymore.

Indeed - I mistyped before saying he was a fighter.  I thought the point of your original question was whether THAC0 could continue to improve after dualling rather than whether it would get to 0.  Remember that there are lots of ways to improve THAC0 in the game so it would not be difficult to get Jan's down to below 0.  Note also that in vanilla all classes THAC0 stops improving around level 20, but there are mods that change this so it keeps getting better after that - possibly you had one of these installed before.  This site has a good set of summary tables showing what the effect of levels is:
http://playithardcor...gression_Charts

You're right about the proficiencies - once a dualled class character has exceeded their first class level they are free to put proficiencies against weapons to the extent allowed to either class.

Wisdom isn't useless if you like using Wish. You need 18 for Wish to give you the "rest my party without sleeping" option. It also improves your saving throws against things that affect the mind.

OK - I agree there are limited situations where it's handy for wish, e.g. if you're a solo sorceror with wish as one of your spell picks.  However, it's not normally much use as:
- you are not in control of what options wish presents you with so it's a risky pick for a solo sorceror.
- any character can talk to the genie; Cernd and Viconia both have wisdom 18.
- there are plenty of potions of wisdom in the game so unless you are using wish very heavily you can just use those.

The saving throw benefits of wisdom were never implemented in the game - the manual reference to this is wrong.

Modifié par Grond0, 10 mars 2012 - 07:01 .

[Enuhal]

Anomen can't specialize past **, I'm sure of it.

Either way, I could use some help for weapon proficiencies in BG2 for either class

What you eventually want for both a blade and a fighter is two-weapon style. There are some weapon combinations considered to be really good for the late game - some examples include:
Flail of Ages +5 / Crom Faeyr
Axe of the Unyielding +5 / Crom Faeyr
Most people think of Flail of Ages and/or Axe of the Unyielding as the best mainhand weapons, but any of the +5 ToB weapons are rather good. For offhand, Crom Faeyr is great because of strength 25. An alternative also often used is "Belm" or "Kundane" +2 - since you only have 1 attack with your offhand, their +1 attack per round bonus is really, really useful and allows you to get 10 APR with gauntlets of extraordinary specialization and improved haste (meaning that you don't need any whirlwind HLAs but instead can invest everything in hardiness and critical strike).

However, two-weapon style isn't as easy to be effective with in BG1. Most fighters there will want to use a shield and war hammers or longswords (there are a lot of great magical longswords in the series, so specializing in them is generally not bad) or even shortbows. So if you intend to dual farily early, you have to decide what to choose (while you'll certainlty dualwield in BG1 already as a blade) - though dualwielding in BG1 as a fighter is certainly not impossible, especially if you have another tank.

If you prefer two-handed weapons, which is usually not as effective in the very late lategame, but still a decent choice (and lots of fun, plus with spiders bane a great choice for damage dealing in BG1), it's relatively easy - two-handed weapon style and one or two weapon profiencies (most people will propably go with two-handed swords).

[AnonymousHero]

Enuhal wrote...
Anomen can't specialize past **, I'm sure of it.

Any fighter-based dual-class can get Grand Mastery -- not that it's necessarily worth it without the so-called "True" or "Unnerfed" Grand Mastery. Unless Bioware did something really strange that would include Anomen.

Enuhal wrote...
What you eventually want for both a blade and a fighter is two-weapon style. There are some weapon combinations considered to be really good for the late game - some examples include:
Flail of Ages +5 / Crom Faeyr
Axe of the Unyielding +5 / Crom Faeyr
Most people think of Flail of Ages and/or Axe of the Unyielding as the best mainhand weapons, but any of the +5 ToB weapons are rather good. For offhand, Crom Faeyr is great because of strength 25. An alternative also often used is "Belm" or "Kundane" +2 - since you only have 1 attack with your offhand, their +1 attack per round bonus is really, really useful and allows you to get 10 APR with gauntlets of extraordinary specialization and improved haste (meaning that you don't need any whirlwind HLAs but instead can invest everything in hardiness and critical strike).

In almost all cases Belm/Kundane/Scarlet Ninja-to are better than CF in the off hand, but (as you note) especially if Improved Haste is available. If your STR is 19 or over, the additional damage from 25 STR is "only" +7 (over having 19 STR), and an additional attack (the "Belm" option) is +7 from 19 STR bonus alone. As long as your main weapon does more than 0 damage, your damage will thus be better using Belm. (There is a +4 THAC0 bonus from 25 over 19 STR -- whether or not that's worth the loss of damage depends on various things).

Enuhal wrote...
However, two-weapon style isn't as easy to be effective with in BG1. Most fighters there will want to use a shield and war hammers or longswords (there are a lot of great magical longswords in the series, so specializing in them is generally not bad) or even shortbows. So if you intend to dual farily early, you have to decide what to choose (while you'll certainlty dualwield in BG1 already as a blade) - though dualwielding in BG1 as a fighter is certainly not impossible, especially if you have another tank.

Flails are also reasonable. You don't get elemental damage in BG1, but you can easily get two Flail+1 almost from the get-go. There are also a couple of ever so slightly better Morning Star+1 which can be obtained during the early game. This also gets you ready for FoA+3 in BG2.

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 10 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[Grond0]

Just to confirm that, in my installation at least, Anomen can reach grand mastery.

[jwburks1976]

Belm is a scimitar, correct? I do not even recall ever seeing the scarlet ninja-to in the game. Maybe I just never felt the need to use it... but where can I get it?

Also, I do not use any mods in BG1 or BG2. I never have before, in my entire life. After I finish BG1 for the first time--as I have only gotten to a certain point many years ago, and for whatever reason, personal life always forced me to quit the game, like some strange anti-BG1 curse or something--I may start using the TuTu mod. I don't know if it is stable or bug-free, or if it causes problems or not. I usually tend to avoid mods like the plague for some reason. Anyway, what was I saying?????

Ah, I finally rolled a fighter with stats that I am happy with, to play through BG1. I will have to find every stat tome in the game, though. When I export this character at the end of the game, and import into BG2, I *do* get to choose a kit, right? And when this happens, I get to re-select weapon proficiencies?

While I'm on the subject, what classes can convert into what kits? I know you can't turn a mage into a sorcerer, but can you turn a fighter into a monk? A specialist mage into a wild mage? Just for future reference.

[Enuhal]

That's odd. I'm sure that Anomen can't or couldn't get grandmastery in my installation. I'll have to look into that.

Yes, Belm is a scimitar and Kundane a short sword (both add +1 APR - Belm is available from the ogre tower at druid grove, Kundane from the planar prison).
Scarlet Ninja-To is an item from one of the bonus merchants (I don't have this one in my installation, but it can be added via mod or, I think, if you have the collectors edition).

Also, Tutu and BGT are usually very bug-free if you stick to the installation guides.

When importing, you get to choose a kit and weapon profiencies, but only for the same basic character class (so a fighter can become a fighter/berserker/kensai/wizardslayer, but not a monk). When it comes to mages, I'm not even sure you can choose, since mage-kits are already available in BG1.

[jwburks1976]

Yes, I always put 5 +++++ in one of Anomen's weapons. Once I gave him Crom Faeyr and he had +++++ in Warhammers. He still sucked, though.

I have the bonus merchants, and I always bought the shield that reflects beholder rays, but I still don't remember any scarlet ninja-to.

Something tells me my play through Baldur's Gate 1 is going to kick my rear. I keep having this memory of a green slime that hit me... I only had 1 save, and after I killed it, I saved the game, even though I had a sort of green tint. I left this cave, and then suddenly exploded and died. No matter how many times I reloaded the game, I died. Ha! Memories... good times...

[Krazy Solo]

If i recall correctly the scarlet is found via Joluv bonus merchant in CC.

[jwburks1976]

In the Copper Coronet? I don't recall any bonus merchants in there. I do know the one in Adventurer's Mart who sells the Shield of Balduran and Robe of Vecna. Are you talking about the guy who sells the Mauler's Arm? I know his stuff gets upgraded later in the game. Maybe that's when it shows up?

[Grond0]

The extra merchant in the Copper Coronet was only there in the Collectors Edition of the original BG2 - not in the ToB expansion. However, the merchant can be added back using quite a few mods, e.g. BG2 Tweaks.

[AnonymousHero]

jwburks1976 wrote...

In the Copper Coronet? I don't recall any bonus merchants in there.

If you have Deirdre (who sells the Sheild of Balduran), I'm pretty sure you'll have Joluv. He's in the Copper Coronet, but can be a little hard to spot. He's usually near the entrance, but he has a tendency to run away from danger, so if you've fought inside the CC he may have run to somewhere else on the map.

jwburks1976 wrote...
Are you talking about the guy who sells the Mauler's Arm? I know his stuff gets upgraded later in the game. Maybe that's when it shows up?

That's Bernard.

[jwburks1976]

I've never seen Joluv in my entire life. I do not think I have him. I have two copies of BG1 and BG2. My original discs from the very old days, and my more recent DVD version I got from Amazon.com that has both BG1 + TotSC and BG2 + ToB (p.s. the BG1 disc and TotSC disc need to be swapped, it seems there's no escape from the retro-disc-swapping days). All of them have Deidre, at least.

I never had the collector's edition. I was a late-comer to BG2, about 9 months late. I wasn't new to AD&D, though, so that helped. The only reason I didn't get it sooner was because I had not had a computer in many years prior to that point, due to moving around so much and having roommates and too many bills to afford it.

Hm, anyway... it's a shame that I can't have Joluv without downloading some mod.

My BG1 game has not been fun. It's not that I don't like my character, it's that every other NPC character in the game seems to suck. Imoen isn't bad, but I can't find a decent mage unless they are evil, and I know that BG1 is VERY bad about people leaving the party. Heck, I remember even Garrick leaving my party because my reputation was too high, and he's not even evil... so how am I supposed to manage my party's moodiness?????

Can someone please recommend a good party make-up for a plain fighter? I like Imoen, and Jaheira and Khalid for roleplaying purposes... I was hoping I could grab Minsc and Dynaheir to play a canonized game... but somehow I don't think it's going to be very pleasant. This game gets very nasty at times. I still remember those god-forsaken sirens... and basilisks...

[Krazy Solo]

Hmmm Not too sure for BG1.  Imho Minsc is probably the best tank I've seen while watching video series on the game.  He can tank Saravok Solo'ing while rest of party takes out the henchies.  Beyond that I really suggest going what makes you happy.  You don't need to do all the good options for quest.  If you have a morale issue being ruthless then i suggest going with paladin tbh.

Modifié par Krazy Solo, 12 mars 2012 - 12:58 .