24 réponses à ce sujet

[Frostmourne86]

I haven't beaten the game yet (though life keeps getting in the way) but while the looming crisis of a technological singularity is still there in all the endings, I think most of the people that are raging against them seem to forget a critical piece of dialogue from Legion in ME 2: "he" talks about civilizations forging their own paths, not depending on others for progress.  

The tech singularity might be an issue, but the race that created the Reapers completely removed any kind of choice other races had down the line.  

The theme of the series is about self-determination, not an eternal struggle of organics vs. sythetics.  

Discuss. 

[Taleroth]

Genociding the geth isn't exactly self-determination. It's more genociding the geth. In a real way, that's the opposite of self-determination. They're being denied that right. You can enable the Rachni and Krogan to choose their own futures. But the destroy option doesn't allow that for the Geth. Or the Reapers, though they're not a sympathetic group.

Modifié par Taleroth, 08 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[Frostmourne86]

I was just talking about the importance of discovering things for yourself, not sitting back and letting others do it for you. As for the Quarians, they made their choice and have to live with the consequnences...like what happens in Real Life.

[Faraborne]

Taleroth wrote...

Genociding the geth isn't exactly self-determination. It's more genociding the geth. In a real way, that's the opposite of self-determination. They're being denied that right. You can enable the Rachni and Krogan to choose their own futures. But the destroy option doesn't allow that for the Geth. Or the Reapers, though they're not a sympathetic group.

^this

Furthremore, the issue with all of the endings is exactly that the game shifted from determinism vs. self-determinism (like LOST did) to synthetics vs. organics (some would say Battlestar Galactica but it was more about determinism too).  Where did this shift come from Bioware?  The overriding theme of Mass Effect was that we are not determined, we have free will, and because of that we have hope.  The ME3 ending was a slap in the face that simply said: "no you have no free will, you're determined, now go die."

[raeting]

Killing the Geth isn't self-determination, but neither is wiping out the Batarian star system in Arrival. ME, as a series, has a lot of themes. Hard choices is one of them, too.
Each ending has its merits, but I do think the destroy ending is the one my (paragon) Shepard is most likely to choose. Because (from the character's perspective -- they don't know everything the player does):

• Merging with the crucible is bound to change me. I could barely control myself just moments ago around the IM. What if, after 50k years, I start thinking like this kid too?
• Combining organics and synthetics? What does that look like? How do people change? Are we talking about fresh evolution? Legion had a point when he said such things should not be handed to people.
• Killing the Reapers has a predictable outcome. The Reapers are gone, the relays are gone, and the galaxy has to cope.
• Geth and EDI are horrible side effects I will have to live with, but the galaxy is bigger than them.

Given the choice, she'd kill the reapers without killing the Geth and EDI, but since that's not an option, just pile on more guilt!

As a player, it is pretty obvious that synthesis is the best outcome. At least, it was portrayed as such to us, never know what the actual consequences are. But, I spent a ton of time thinking about it and came to the conclusion that destruction is the only logical choice for my Shepard.

[Jigero]

The problem with all the choices is they're all pointless, you might aswell, just let the reapers start the cycle over, because that's what happens anyways. The Galaxy if forever altered for the worse and everything you did was useless. There is no real benefit from any of the endings.

Modifié par Jigero, 08 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[DavianBurke]

My Paragon had to choose control... merging the organics and synthetics into new DNA felt too much like playing God, and destroying ALL synthetics (as opposed to just the Reapers) was something I couldn't do... not mere hours after granting the Geth individuality and freedom. Hell, Legion's last words contained *I* instead of *we*.

Still, had the Geth and EDI not been part of the destroy option I would have chosen it in a heartbeat.

[Aesieru]

Taleroth wrote...

Genociding the geth isn't exactly self-determination. It's more genociding the geth. In a real way, that's the opposite of self-determination. They're being denied that right. You can enable the Rachni and Krogan to choose their own futures. But the destroy option doesn't allow that for the Geth. Or the Reapers, though they're not a sympathetic group.

Well the Geth and EDI both are incorporated with Reaper tech, so it makes obvious sense.

[Aesieru]

Jigero wrote...

The problem with all the choices is they're all pointless, you might aswell, just let the reapers start the cycle over, because that's what happens anyways. The Galaxy if forever altered for the worse and everything you did was useless. There is no real benefit from any of the endings.

Not true, only if you have a short-term perspective rather than a long-term, since rebuilding over a few hundred years is much better than being all dead and having the cycle continue later on.

[IronHam]

raeting wrote...

Killing the Geth isn't self-determination, but neither is wiping out the Batarian star system in Arrival. ME, as a series, has a lot of themes. Hard choices is one of them, too.
Each ending has its merits, but I do think the destroy ending is the one my (paragon) Shepard is most likely to choose. Because (from the character's perspective -- they don't know everything the player does):

• Merging with the crucible is bound to change me. I could barely control myself just moments ago around the IM. What if, after 50k years, I start thinking like this kid too?
• Combining organics and synthetics? What does that look like? How do people change? Are we talking about fresh evolution? Legion had a point when he said such things should not be handed to people.
• Killing the Reapers has a predictable outcome. The Reapers are gone, the relays are gone, and the galaxy has to cope.
• Geth and EDI are horrible side effects I will have to live with, but the galaxy is bigger than them.

Given the choice, she'd kill the reapers without killing the Geth and EDI, but since that's not an option, just pile on more guilt!

As a player, it is pretty obvious that synthesis is the best outcome. At least, it was portrayed as such to us, never know what the actual consequences are. But, I spent a ton of time thinking about it and came to the conclusion that destruction is the only logical choice for my Shepard.

[*]Exactly the same here.

[mysticforce42]

Always remember that *someone* built the Mass Relays at one point. The Protheans managed to build one as well on Ilos and the Citadel. Technology was not wiped out - only the Mass Relays were destroyed. Individual planets will survive, and eventually, someone somewhere will either come up with a new way of FTL travel or rebuild the Mass Relays. It could be 10, 50, or 1500 years from now, but galactic civilization will rise again. Some races might have wiped themselves out before that point... but that's just one aspect of evolution.

The Destruction ending gives the races of the galaxy freedom to do whatever they wish and make whatever mistakes they want along the way.

Modifié par mysticforce42, 08 mars 2012 - 10:55 .

[aim1essgun]

The control ending is ironically the one that leaves the most room for self-determination.

In the synthesis ending or the destroy ending, you are playing God. You force the choice of synthesis on the galaxy. Or you force genocide on the geth, and you force destruction of technology on a galaxy that probably wants to keep that technology.

In the control setting, you have the choice to simply withdraw the Reapers and not play God with the universe. It is by far the best ending if you wish to let the galaxy play out freely.

Or you could use your Reaper army to become God-emperor of the galaxy. But that's a choice you can make! The control ending: ironically filled with self-determination on multiple levels. 

Modifié par aim1essgun, 08 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[IronHam]

aim1essgun wrote...

The control ending is ironically the one that leaves the most room for self-determination.

In the synthesis ending or the destroy ending, you are playing God. You force the choice of synthesis on the galaxy. Or you force genocide on the geth, and you force destruction of technology on a galaxy that probably wants to keep that technology.

In the control setting, you have the choice to simply withdraw the Reapers and not play God with the universe. It is by far the best ending if you wish to let the galaxy play out freely.

Or you could use your Reaper army to become God-emperor of the galaxy. But that's a choice you can make! The control ending: ironically filled with self-determination on multiple levels. 

It's been established that all endings involve destruction of relays though, hasn't it?

[Jonathan Shepard]

DavianBurke wrote...

My Paragon had to choose control... merging the organics and synthetics into new DNA felt too much like playing God, and destroying ALL synthetics (as opposed to just the Reapers) was something I couldn't do... not mere hours after granting the Geth individuality and freedom. Hell, Legion's last words contained *I* instead of *we*.

Still, had the Geth and EDI not been part of the destroy option I would have chosen it in a heartbeat.

I think this though, is what really drove home the "hard choice" aspect of the game. I appreciate BioWare trying, I really do. As for how it was implemented? Well... I feel that there should've been some way to make things better. As does almost everyone it seems.

[aim1essgun]

IronHam wrote...

aim1essgun wrote...

The control ending is ironically the one that leaves the most room for self-determination.

In the synthesis ending or the destroy ending, you are playing God. You force the choice of synthesis on the galaxy. Or you force genocide on the geth, and you force destruction of technology on a galaxy that probably wants to keep that technology.

In the control setting, you have the choice to simply withdraw the Reapers and not play God with the universe. It is by far the best ending if you wish to let the galaxy play out freely.

Or you could use your Reaper army to become God-emperor of the galaxy. But that's a choice you can make! The control ending: ironically filled with self-determination on multiple levels. 

It's been established that all endings involve destruction of relays though, hasn't it?

Yes, but even if you accept that insane condition for sending a control signal, with the reapers still around and under your control, the relays can be rebuilt. Also the control ending leaves the most room for the relays possibly only being damaged, not flat out blown up. 

Modifié par aim1essgun, 09 mars 2012 - 12:01 .

[Spaceguy5]

Why the destroy ending does not make sense:

The pulse that was let off by the Citadel was travelling pretty slowly. Like, probably about the speed of sound. At the rate it was travelling, it would have taken a very very very very very very very very very very very very............. long time for it to reach the rest of the galaxy, or even to leave our solar system Also for the beam the citadel let off to go directly to the closest mass relay, it would have had to have been pointing in -just- the right direction at -just- the right time with Earth orbiting/rotating in -just- the right position. There's a reason that on real space missions, there's very small "launch windows" where a launch can take place--because at any other time, things wouldn't be aligned properly.

/technicalNitpick

Modifié par Spaceguy5, 09 mars 2012 - 12:05 .

[Cuddlezarro]

none of the endings make sense considering a destroyed mass relay makes a freaking supernova =/

[Golferguy758]

Spaceguy5 wrote...

Why the destroy ending does not make sense:

The pulse that was let off by the Citadel was travelling pretty slowly. Like, probably about the speed of sound. At the rate it was travelling, it would have taken a very very very very very very very very very very very very............. long time for it to reach the rest of the galaxy, or even to leave our solar system Also for the beam the citadel let off to go directly to the closest mass relay, it would have had to have been pointing in -just- the right direction at -just- the right time with Earth orbiting/rotating in -just- the right position. There's a reason that on real space missions, there's very small "launch windows" where a launch can take place--because at any other time, things wouldn't be aligned properly.

/technicalNitpick

A magic wizard child did it.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

none of the endings make sense considering a destroyed mass relay makes a freaking supernova =/

When all of their energy is depeleted and tranfered to send the Crucible energy beam along? Possibly not. Otherwise, we wiped out almost all of civilization anyway. Lol, whatdotheymeantheReapersdon'twin?

[Spaceguy5]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Spaceguy5 wrote...

Why the destroy ending does not make sense:

The pulse that was let off by the Citadel was travelling pretty slowly. Like, probably about the speed of sound. At the rate it was travelling, it would have taken a very very very very very very very very very very very very............. long time for it to reach the rest of the galaxy, or even to leave our solar system Also for the beam the citadel let off to go directly to the closest mass relay, it would have had to have been pointing in -just- the right direction at -just- the right time with Earth orbiting/rotating in -just- the right position. There's a reason that on real space missions, there's very small "launch windows" where a launch can take place--because at any other time, things wouldn't be aligned properly.

/technicalNitpick

A magic wizard child did it.

...oh, I see.

It all makes sense then! And I was starting to worry that BioWare stopped caring about trying to come up with technical almost-scientific reasons why everything worked!

[Spaceguy5]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Because ME4/5/6 will be about a Tech Singularity threat occuring thousand of years later!

Nonono, they're going to make an ME -3, -2, and -1 which will be a prequal:: Showing the rise and fall of Harbinger (from former Spectre to evil Reaper), and we'll learn the twisted truth that Harbinger is actually Shepard's great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great.........................

[Cuddlezarro]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

none of the endings make sense considering a destroyed mass relay makes a freaking supernova =/

When all of their energy is depeleted and tranfered to send the Crucible energy beam along? Possibly not. Otherwise, we wiped out almost all of civilization anyway. Lol, whatdotheymeantheReapersdon'twin?

ok... thats like the only thing that makes sense in the ending... which isnt alot considering its just...

[Stanley Woo]

The endings are already being discussed in several other threads in this forum. Please join one of them. Thank you.

End of line.