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[tanglefoot79]

Akka le Vil wrote...

I like her somehow, but honestly, being lectured about honour and duty by the one who actually saw first-hand the treason of Loghain was really pushing it.

To Loghain and Cauthrien it wasn't treason. The King was inviting an invading army into the country at a time when his forces were already weakend. Going off her reaction, Cauthrien likely unaware of Loghhain intending to sacrifice the King to stop Orlias from sending troops into the country.

After it was explained to her, she probably viewed it as a regrettable but neccisary sacrifice.

To Loghain and Cauthrien, Orlais was a bigger threat than the blight., to them it was their duty and honor to see that Ferelden was safe, even from it's own king. 

As tough as it is to swallow, the lecture was completely within character.

I liked her too, I wish she had come into the game early as a companion option.

[Niten Ryu]

CJohnJones wrote...

As a side note, if you kill her, loot her, then go down to her archers you get her sword, its codex entry and her alive at Landsmeet. I guess she was only mostly dead.

Not only that, you can fight her again before the Landsmeet and get another sword

[Hatem]

Loghain was her leader and the only person who helped her get out of poverty. Aside from obeying him in Ostagar she wasn't corrupt and achieved her high rank by "sheer determination".

So when I saw "Some of us know what honor and loyalty are" in her codex I thought "screw the sword and its Codex entry. She's is not dying today."

[SeanMurphy2]

She did object to Loghain abandoning Cailan and seemed quite angry.



But she is a soldier so she obeys Loghain's orders like she expects her soldiers to obey her. She also just fought a bitter civil war which might harder her beliefs and self justification.

[PhD-gaming]

It's also important to keep in mind that Cauthrien met (and actually saved) Logaihn very early on in her life, and so when Logaihn took her in, Cauthrien probably felt very close to Logaihn. By the point in her life that the Grey Wardens come in, Cauthrien was probably too devoted to Logaihn to just turn against him.

[Akka le Vil]

tanglefoot79 wrote...

To Loghain and Cauthrien it wasn't treason. The King was inviting an invading army into the country at a time when his forces were already weakend. Going off her reaction, Cauthrien likely unaware of Loghhain intending to sacrifice the King to stop Orlias from sending troops into the country.

After it was explained to her, she probably viewed it as a regrettable but neccisary sacrifice.

To Loghain and Cauthrien, Orlais was a bigger threat than the blight., to them it was their duty and honor to see that Ferelden was safe, even from it's own king. 

As tough as it is to swallow, the lecture was completely within character.

I liked her too, I wish she had come into the game early as a companion option.

You describe Loghain's point of view. She may be utterly loyal to him, but she's still clearly disagreeing with him on this point.
I've no problem with her trying to arrest me, but she sounds downright hypocrital when she talks about honour and duty.
At the VERY LEAST, we should be able to answer back "Duty and honour ? The same your master showed at Ostagar ?". Just being able to throw this to her face would have made the encounter much more bearable.

[Taerda]

PhD-gaming wrote...

It's also important to keep in mind that Cauthrien met (and actually saved) Logaihn very early on in her life, and so when Logaihn took her in, Cauthrien probably felt very close to Logaihn. By the point in her life that the Grey Wardens come in, Cauthrien was probably too devoted to Logaihn to just turn against him.

This is why I felt she needed to die ... there was no redeeming her by the time she tries to arrest me; it is now time to kill off a Loghain loyalist for good. I also felt it sweet irony that I took her sword and gave it to Sten, just as Loghain took the sword originally from an Orlais loyalist and gave it to her.

[Jayce]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

She did object to Loghain abandoning Cailan and seemed quite angry.

But she is a soldier so she obeys Loghain's orders like she expects her soldiers to obey her. She also just fought a bitter civil war which might harder her beliefs and self justification.

But thats not what a soldier does. You obey the law and lawful orders handed legally to you. You don't obey illegal orders. In fact your duty is to refuse to obey them. The "I was only following orders" didn't wash at Nuremberg and it doesn't wash today.

That whole spiel about Honor and Loyalty are what made me want to kill her more than anything. She did what Loghain ordered her to do and betrayed her honor by betraying her king. She knew what Loghain was doing and did nothing to stop him. That makes her a coward twice over. A coward for retreating from Ostagar and a moral coward for not refusing Loghain's orders.

Killing the hypocritical **** was a great deal of pleasure.

[Allattar1]

Couldnt get her to stand aside after killing Howe, and she won there...

I woke up in Fort Drakon. For the nerve of locking me up I may have escaped and killed every guard in there. Much to the surprise of Morrigan and Lelliana's rescue party .



It was only later when we had to go fight the Archdemon on top of Fort Drakon that I realised that killing everyone in the fort earlier may have been a slight tactical mistake... perhaps just sneaking out disguised would have been better.



Still I digress, the second time I met Ser Cauthrin trying to block me to the landsmeet (still at full coercian) she still refused to back down. Guess she doesnt like Elves, mind you I was not going to let her live after capturing me the first time.

[Whailor]

She knew that Loghain deserted the king and left him die but her blind sense of "honor" made her follow Loghain's heels. Plus, Arl Eammon was apparently poisoned by Loghain's orders before Ostagar and she probably knew about it too, since she follows him pretty much anywhere (except the toilet, I hope). Teyrn Cousland was attacked by Arl Howe with obvious "blessing" from Loghain, which means that he already had plans for King Cailan and not exactly a "family friendly" ones. Loghain was planning to deal with the King and his supporters weeks before Ostagar, if not before. Ostagar was just a place where he put a "dot on i", so to say. Ser Cautherin may not have been aware to every detail of Loghain's plans but I would never believe that she didn't know anything. And yet it didn't bother her too much for whatever reason, mislead "honor" or anything.



So when she came barking orders and saying that she's going to arrest me, I smeared her all over the entry hallway of Arl of Denerim's estate and I was happy about it. I just wish that I could have told her what I think of her and her "loyalty or honor" just before the final blow. Then I took her sword and chopped the heads of her "entourage" with it.

[Allattar1]

Her actions, and shouting of honour make me think its a way to cover her guilt...

[Kaerwek]

Lol, yesterday I encountered her on my way out after killing Howe. I play on Nightmare, and had a hell of a time trying to win that battle. On my third try, I didnt reload soon enough and experienced the cutscene that I had been captured. I believed that I had to win that battle and hence I really tried my best to win. Ser Cautherin was very effecient two hander, hitting for 100 damage on each hit. On my third try though, I had devised a cowardly tactic to win it, and I bested the group on my fourth try.



I simply cast sleep in the beginning, and ran a few rooms back with my whole party. Only Ser Cautherin followed me, and I managed to kill her (very difficult still though). I had to be very careful when trying to kill the remaining mobs, as those archers are very dangerous with the unofficial Dex mod...



Next playthrough I might just as well try to sneak out.

[kormesios]

Jayce F wrote...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

She did object to Loghain abandoning Cailan and seemed quite angry.

But she is a soldier so she obeys Loghain's orders like she expects her soldiers to obey her. She also just fought a bitter civil war which might harder her beliefs and self justification.

But thats not what a soldier does. You obey the law and lawful orders handed legally to you. You don't obey illegal orders. In fact your duty is to refuse to obey them. The "I was only following orders" didn't wash at Nuremberg and it doesn't wash today.

That whole spiel about Honor and Loyalty are what made me want to kill her more than anything. She did what Loghain ordered her to do and betrayed her honor by betraying her king. She knew what Loghain was doing and did nothing to stop him. That makes her a coward twice over. A coward for retreating from Ostagar and a moral coward for not refusing Loghain's orders.

Killing the hypocritical **** was a great deal of pleasure.

Medieval (and rennaissance) loyalty was quite different than the modern variety you describe.  It was made of personal bonds, not to some abstraction like the "law".  

For one thing, in many setups Cauthrien's only oath would have been to Loghain, not to the king.  I can't swear how it was in Ferelden, but many a king who tried to claim loyalty directly from a retainer of some other noble was overstepping his bounds--this is related to all the problems Loghain was having governing the Banns, since they weren't *his* men to demand. 

And betraying your liege lord because you personally happen to agree with *his* liege lord more was not automatically honorable, let alone required by duty.

On the flip side, sure, if you betrayed your lord to save the king, and were successful, you'd probably get a new job offer working for the king and no one would call you a traitor.  Not officially, anyway.

Cauthrien worked for me.  Directly loyal to Loghain by oath and for personal reasons, she saw a battle where Loghain (the general who would have had the most information) claimed he had reasons for what he did.  Once she swallowed that, even part way, everything else was pretty natural.  Certainly opposing a bastard who *claimed* he had a tenuous hold on the the throne and Grey Warden who'd murdered nobility was no stretch.

[Pennoyer]

I was surprised she even got a codex entry.

[Yorenec]

Cauthrien holds the distinction of being with Lanaya as the only female supporting/minor character that's actually likable. Maybe you could put Isabela on that list if you really wanted.
Companions and origin characters such as Mama Cousland and Shianni don't count.

Compared to the power-hungry backstabbing spoiled little child tantrum throwing hypocrite woefully inept at being a military leader that is Anora, Cauthrien is actually a saint.

Modifié par Yorenec, 27 novembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[Revik]

I think there is something to be said about having a hot, loyal woman at your side. Many might consider these qualities being the most important.

That being said her relationship is liken to that of Mercy Graves and Lex Luthor in the Batman Animated series. Both taken in and essentially given them a chance to excel. The only difference here is that Mercy Graves eventually breaks away from her master.

Its funny someone mentioned Cuddy from the show House. That's what reminded me of Mercy Graves since Cuddy is the voice for Mercy.

[SeanMurphy2]

Jayce F wrote...

But thats not what a soldier does. You obey the law and lawful orders handed legally to you. You don't obey illegal orders. In fact your duty is to refuse to obey them. The "I was only following orders" didn't wash at Nuremberg and it doesn't wash today.

That whole spiel about Honor and Loyalty are what made me want to kill her more than anything. She did what Loghain ordered her to do and betrayed her honor by betraying her king. She knew what Loghain was doing and did nothing to stop him. That makes her a coward twice over. A coward for retreating from Ostagar and a moral coward for not refusing Loghain's orders.

Killing the hypocritical **** was a great deal of pleasure.

They may not have the same military laws as us. Loghain is her commander. She assumes he has perfectly good reasons for ordering the retreat. She obeys his orders. She can't ask for a lengthy explanation.

In the mid game, it is a crisis situation. The Darkspawn are destroying parts of the country and there is instability due to the civil war. She may accept that ruthless things need to be done to restore unity and stability.

Loghain is the official regent.It could give him broad legal powers to act however he likes.

[Spaceweed10]

ThunderfoxF wrote...

So I'm in the Landsmeet right now.

Was I the only one disappointed with how Ser Cauthrien was handled? When I first saw her in the cut-scene of Loghain's retreat at  Ostagar, I thought she might end up turning against him. But it seems she either drank the kool-aid or her sense of honor is too much to do anything other than say he maybe killed king Cailan.

Plus shes hot, though she does drop a nice sword

I had the longest - and best - fight with her before the Landsmeet.  I needed to see what sword she was carrying.  Jesus, she hit hard with it .

[Arijharn]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

She did object to Loghain abandoning Cailan and seemed quite angry.

But she is a soldier so she obeys Loghain's orders like she expects her soldiers to obey her. She also just fought a bitter civil war which might harder her beliefs and self justification.

No, her duty is to follow her king and teryn, in that order.

[SeanMurphy2]

But what if Loghain believes that the battle is lost and the King is already dead. And a retreat is needed to preserve the army.



Cauthrien can't insist that Loghain commit the rest of the army to battle. It would be like a lower ranked soldier questioning her order to retreat. Loghain is the commander and makes those decisions.



It would be different if Loghain ordered her to directly attack and kill Cailan.

[archonambroseus]

I actually found her post-coercion apalogia to be one of the more touching moments in the game.

[Arijharn]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

But what if Loghain believes that the battle is lost and the King is already dead. And a retreat is needed to preserve the army.

Cauthrien can't insist that Loghain commit the rest of the army to battle. It would be like a lower ranked soldier questioning her order to retreat. Loghain is the commander and makes those decisions.

It would be different if Loghain ordered her to directly attack and kill Cailan.

Perhaps, but if you watch the Battle of Ostagar cinematic again you'll realise that the force at Loghain's back was massive (in fact, for a reserve force, it seemed staggering). Also, losing a king is a really big deal to any country, let alone a country that only recently won their freedom.

Personally I was under the impression that they knew Cailan was still alive which is why Cautherine objected so much to the Teryn's orders.

[apantoliani]

I was going to let her live, for knowing the meaning of loyalty when her boss didn't, but the lecturing bit kind of pissed me off.



Oh, and getting lip when I was threatening Howe before the Landsmeet didn't help her case much either. I had forgot about that though.



I think next time instead of surrendering and going to prison, I'll kill her at Howe's place and skip those shenanigans. Honestly, whoever was in charge of Fort Drakan is an idiot.

[SeanMurphy2]

Arijharn wrote...

Perhaps, but if you watch the Battle of Ostagar cinematic again you'll realise that the force at Loghain's back was massive (in fact, for a reserve force, it seemed staggering). Also, losing a king is a really big deal to any country, let alone a country that only recently won their freedom.

Personally I was under the impression that they knew Cailan was still alive which is why Cautherine objected so much to the Teryn's orders.

I agree there was a lot of soldiers behind Loghain. You can see the torches.

I think it is hard to know exactly what happened at the battle. Whether the signal came too late and Cailan's army was already overrun. Or the Darkspawn forces were much larger than expected.

I would have liked Loghain to try to justfiy what he did and put doubt in the player's mind. He could say the signal came too late, the battle was lost and it was the player's fault for not lighting it sooner.

Or he was not going to risk the whole army to rescue the King who was likely already dead. I wish they presented Loghain as a morally grey character open to interpretation rather than an outright villain.

[seren2]

Really?
Now that might be worth creating DLC for.....

Or not.

Loghain is a jerk and the current storyline makes no bones about it. Makes it easy to terminate......
Painting him better may justifiy him being available as a team member, but it would take away from the stark and self centered character he is.

Modifié par seren2, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:34 .