43 réponses à ce sujet

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

The whole "synthetic life will always wipe out organic life" motive just baffled me so much. Especially when it's easy to resolve the geth/quarian conflict in such a heartwarming and definitive way--in blatant defiance of the Catalyst's illogical, fallacial, and overly simplistic motive. It gets even more baffling when you realize that the Reapers are mostly synthetic, the Catalyst is synthetic, and organic life is being continually wiped out by these mostly synthetic beings run by an entirely synthetic being. Talk about absurd hypocrisy.

So here's a much better motive. And it took me all of a minute to think of it:

1) Eventually, galactic civilizations become overcrowded literally and figuratively, with too many races emerging, too many differing cultures clashing, and too much population growth for the civilization to sustain with garden worlds exascerbating the problem. Eventually, the galaxy reaches a state of constant, horrific war and/or brutal oppression and discrimination, and the civilization stagnates aside from military developments.

2) The Reaper cycle repeats every time a galactic civilization reaches its apex, then harvests it and assimilates their "essence" (no idea what that means or how that works at all...thanks ME2/3!) into comparaively small, united Reaper forms, leaving a clean and blank slate for the next galactic civilization to rise and grow on its own. This way, each cycle's civilization is new, diverse, with completely new perspectives, cultures, and ideas, strengthening the Reaper collective each time.

It's far from perfect, but at least it's compelling and even supported by the events of the series in general (the Prothean Empire oppressing/enslaving new organic races because they started with such a huge technological and populational advantage and culturally didn't care, or humanity feeling threatened by starting so far behind everyone else in 2157--and humanity's subsequent rapid development scaring the rest of the galaxy, and then the sheer number of new species for every cycle).

It also demonstrates a sufficiently "big" and "long term" motive for something as Cthulhu-like as the Reapers, rather than a childish motive that can be easily picked apart by a teenager--a teenager who just has to point out the window (where the geth and quarians are at a definitive, coexisting peace and are fighting alongside each other) to prove the Catalyst blatantly wrong (and hypocritical, as the Reapers are mostly synthetic and the Catalyst IS synthetic).

[Aesieru]

Reapers aren't synthetic.

They are Sapient Constructs.

[Troutz]

Your idea has way more merit than the Catalyst crap. But honestly, I almost prefer no explanation.

We're told over the course of all three games that the Reapers' existence and their motives are unfathomable. We mortal can't even comprehend why they do what they do. So why try and make us comprehend it? Just let us destroy them, and leave their purpose shrouded in mystery.

[Aesieru]

No, I think the idea isn't valid, it refutes too much ME plot and lore throughout the series. That's why non-designers have no real chance of designing a story without giving it extensive thought.

We still don't, if we did, we wouldn't resist every Organic being destroyed so that all life in the galaxy wasn't obliterated.

[ShadowFaction]

I always figured the Reapers acted as some kind of galactic janitorial service(Simplifying my original theory, keep in mind).

I thought the Reapers purpose was to purge advanced civilizations so galactic civilization as a whole does not grow to large, or else, the demands of advanced civilizations grow to be beyond what they can recover in the known galaxy, and complete social collapse follows. I assumed the Reapers were a purge designed, possibly by an ancient civilization, to prevent this from happening(again?). I mean, it makes sense, most needed materials are not renewable, in the same sense oil is non renewable, in that it takes so long for it to gather in sufficient quantities, that its logistically impossible to sustain a civilization without necessary resources.

Proof: The krogan completely used up several worlds resources in a couple of centuries? Eventually our galactic civilization would do the same thing galaxy wide, though certainly not for several thousand years, but possibly fast enough to 'mine out' enough to make it a big problem.

Stupid theory in retrospect, but I think its more fun. Reaper Galactic Restocking Services.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

The reapers destroy organics because of a paradox. Seems like that whole "give an AI a paradox and it will self-destruct" really backfired on organics didn't it?

[Lyriq]

I always thought the reapers were harvesting species to reproduce >> What with them building a reaper out of humans and all.

I was disappointed when I found out the "actual" reason.

Modifié par Lyriq, 09 mars 2012 - 01:10 .

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

Aesieru wrote...

Reapers aren't synthetic.

They are Sapient Constructs.

That are 90+% synthetic. With no individuality at all. Run by an entirely synthetic intelligence.

[Aesieru]

Actual reason if properly understood makes sense, why people can't understand it is exactly the whole "impossible to comprehend" thing.

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

The reapers destroy organics because of a paradox. Seems like that whole "give an AI a paradox and it will self-destruct" really backfired on organics didn't it?

No, the Reapers act on one of the most basic and stupid of logical fallacies. Or a few of them.

This Catalyst apparently never understood basic logic. I mean, I--barely a legal adult--can point out half a dozen critical logical flaws in the Catalyst's motive and reasoning within a minute. That's not "long view, godlike, big-picture motive", that's a "are you ****ing kidding me, you logic-less, critical thinking-less, moronic CHILD?! The counterargument, in undeniable physical proof, IS RIGHT OUT THE ****ING WINDOW!!!" motive.

[Aesieru]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

The reapers destroy organics because of a paradox. Seems like that whole "give an AI a paradox and it will self-destruct" really backfired on organics didn't it?

No, the Reapers act on one of the most basic and stupid of logical fallacies. Or a few of them.

This Catalyst apparently never understood basic logic. I mean, I--barely a legal adult--can point out half a dozen critical logical flaws in the Catalyst's motive and reasoning within a minute. That's not "long view, godlike, big-picture motive", that's a "are you ****ing kidding me, you logic-less, critical thinking-less, moronic CHILD?! The counterargument, in undeniable physical proof, IS RIGHT OUT THE ****ING WINDOW!!!" motive.

Actually...

Forces ally many times in history, then they kill each other later.

Also, hundreds of civilizations had been harvested before, they saw proof tons of times of what happened, it might take time, but it was inevitable.

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

Aesieru wrote...

Actual reason if properly understood makes sense, why people can't understand it is exactly the whole "impossible to comprehend" thing.

Because it's not impossible to comprehend. It's actually very easy to comprehend. It's like a textbook example of a few simple, basic logical fallacies. Coupled with extremely narrow-minded thinking and a total lack of creativity.

There wasn't any room for interpretation of the Catalyst's motives or reasoning. He said it simply and definitively. He was also about as logical, internally consistent, and non-hypocritical as racial supremacist committing genocide because "the blacks" would inevitably rise up and wipe out "the whites". I'm not kidding, it's about the same level of logic, narrow-mindedness, and internal consistency as the Reapers and the Catalyst.

[Aesieru]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Actual reason if properly understood makes sense, why people can't understand it is exactly the whole "impossible to comprehend" thing.

Because it's not impossible to comprehend. It's actually very easy to comprehend. It's like a textbook example of a few simple, basic logical fallacies. Coupled with extremely narrow-minded thinking and a total lack of creativity.

There wasn't any room for interpretation of the Catalyst's motives or reasoning. He said it simply and definitively. He was also about as logical, internally consistent, and non-hypocritical as racial supremacist committing genocide because "the blacks" would inevitably rise up and wipe out "the whites". I'm not kidding, it's about the same level of logic, narrow-mindedness, and internal consistency as the Reapers and the Catalyst.

If you could understand the need for it you wouldn't be insulting it, and if you saw something 400+ times over wouldn't you speak with absolute certainty too?

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

Aesieru wrote...

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

The reapers destroy organics because of a paradox. Seems like that whole "give an AI a paradox and it will self-destruct" really backfired on organics didn't it?

No, the Reapers act on one of the most basic and stupid of logical fallacies. Or a few of them.

This Catalyst apparently never understood basic logic. I mean, I--barely a legal adult--can point out half a dozen critical logical flaws in the Catalyst's motive and reasoning within a minute. That's not "long view, godlike, big-picture motive", that's a "are you ****ing kidding me, you logic-less, critical thinking-less, moronic CHILD?! The counterargument, in undeniable physical proof, IS RIGHT OUT THE ****ING WINDOW!!!" motive.

Actually...

Forces ally many times in history, then they kill each other later.

Also, hundreds of civilizations had been harvested before, they saw proof tons of times of what happened, it might take time, but it was inevitable.

Just look at Earth today. Take Japan and the US, for example. Past allies, past bitter enemies. Both still around today, better allies than ever, culturally intertwined and friendly in unprecedented levels and ways, and all indications point towards an increase in that trend. And that's after all of the atrocities Japan committed in WW2, and after the US NUKED JAPAN TWICE.

That's also assuming that things will never change, and that history always repeats itself. Which is so blatantly untrue if you have an even moderate understanding of history (and you're not overgeneralizing everything and making everything super-abstract).

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

Aesieru wrote...

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Actual reason if properly understood makes sense, why people can't understand it is exactly the whole "impossible to comprehend" thing.

Because it's not impossible to comprehend. It's actually very easy to comprehend. It's like a textbook example of a few simple, basic logical fallacies. Coupled with extremely narrow-minded thinking and a total lack of creativity.

There wasn't any room for interpretation of the Catalyst's motives or reasoning. He said it simply and definitively. He was also about as logical, internally consistent, and non-hypocritical as racial supremacist committing genocide because "the blacks" would inevitably rise up and wipe out "the whites". I'm not kidding, it's about the same level of logic, narrow-mindedness, and internal consistency as the Reapers and the Catalyst.

If you could understand the need for it you wouldn't be insulting it, and if you saw something 400+ times over wouldn't you speak with absolute certainty too?

No. Because the circumstances are very different, and there are always new options available. The Catalyst says it himself. And you can bet your ass that if the Alliance could build three brand-new options in a few months (the Crucible), the Catalyst could EASILY.

[Warhawk7137]

I think I just preferred them when they were an incomprehensible evil force.

[Aesieru]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Actual reason if properly understood makes sense, why people can't understand it is exactly the whole "impossible to comprehend" thing.

Because it's not impossible to comprehend. It's actually very easy to comprehend. It's like a textbook example of a few simple, basic logical fallacies. Coupled with extremely narrow-minded thinking and a total lack of creativity.

There wasn't any room for interpretation of the Catalyst's motives or reasoning. He said it simply and definitively. He was also about as logical, internally consistent, and non-hypocritical as racial supremacist committing genocide because "the blacks" would inevitably rise up and wipe out "the whites". I'm not kidding, it's about the same level of logic, narrow-mindedness, and internal consistency as the Reapers and the Catalyst.

If you could understand the need for it you wouldn't be insulting it, and if you saw something 400+ times over wouldn't you speak with absolute certainty too?

No. Because the circumstances are very different, and there are always new options available. The Catalyst says it himself. And you can bet your ass that if the Alliance could build three brand-new options in a few months (the Crucible), the Catalyst could EASILY.

The Catalyst wasn't trying to find a way that MIGHT work, he was finding a way that DID work. And it worked many times, and you don't know if your decision of synergy, destroy, or control will actually prevent a tech singularity in 500 or longer years, or 10,000 or 400,000 and if it does, all live is gone and the Reapers were proven correct.

You're thinking too short term, not long term.

[Aesieru]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

The reapers destroy organics because of a paradox. Seems like that whole "give an AI a paradox and it will self-destruct" really backfired on organics didn't it?

No, the Reapers act on one of the most basic and stupid of logical fallacies. Or a few of them.

This Catalyst apparently never understood basic logic. I mean, I--barely a legal adult--can point out half a dozen critical logical flaws in the Catalyst's motive and reasoning within a minute. That's not "long view, godlike, big-picture motive", that's a "are you ****ing kidding me, you logic-less, critical thinking-less, moronic CHILD?! The counterargument, in undeniable physical proof, IS RIGHT OUT THE ****ING WINDOW!!!" motive.

Actually...

Forces ally many times in history, then they kill each other later.

Also, hundreds of civilizations had been harvested before, they saw proof tons of times of what happened, it might take time, but it was inevitable.

Just look at Earth today. Take Japan and the US, for example. Past allies, past bitter enemies. Both still around today, better allies than ever, culturally intertwined and friendly in unprecedented levels and ways, and all indications point towards an increase in that trend. And that's after all of the atrocities Japan committed in WW2, and after the US NUKED JAPAN TWICE.

That's also assuming that things will never change, and that history always repeats itself. Which is so blatantly untrue if you have an even moderate understanding of history (and you're not overgeneralizing everything and making everything super-abstract).

Look at some of our other "allies"... yeah...

[N7Raider]

ugh yeah I haven't gotten to this part of the game but this is not a better idea, if they harvested simply because the galaxy is overcrowded and too violent than it would be a plot hole as to why they harvested the Protheans and it wouldn't make any sense as to why they decided to harvest organic life now.

[bloodstone2007]

Think more long term, You will notice that there are a number of reapers that are 'different' more than likely they are harvested races from previos cycles. ok so we know a cycle is 50k years thats 20 cycles in a million so just for sake of argument, and I havent gotten all the way through the game yet.  Lets say that you as a race or individual want your civilization to exist for a very long time. How do you go about it. The reapers have gotten so used to the cycles they have lost focus on what the whole reason was harvest all sentient life.

[Aesieru]

bloodstone2007 wrote...

Think more long term, You will notice that there are a number of reapers that are 'different' more than likely they are harvested races from previos cycles. ok so we know a cycle is 50k years thats 20 cycles in a million so just for sake of argument, and I havent gotten all the way through the game yet.  Lets say that you as a race or individual want your civilization to exist for a very long time. How do you go about it. The reapers have gotten so used to the cycles they have lost focus on what the whole reason was harvest all sentient life.

Too plot holey, illogical too.

[Hexxys]

Aesieru wrote...

Actual reason if properly understood makes sense, why people can't understand it is exactly the whole "impossible to comprehend" thing.

If by "impossible to comrehend" you mean "so stupid as to be incomprehensible", sure.  It's not hard to make sense of what is being said by the space toddler.  But making sense of something doesn't mean it makes sense.

[KronAThrund]

 Your suggested plot , I believed thats what was going on since mass effect 1 with the reapers. Not once did it occur to me synthetic live and organics would always be at edge. I prefer the galaxy runs out of resources idea. Like ffs  crop rotation.

[Aesieru]

Hexxys wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Actual reason if properly understood makes sense, why people can't understand it is exactly the whole "impossible to comprehend" thing.

If by "impossible to comrehend" you mean "so stupid as to be incomprehensible", sure.  It's not hard to make sense of what is being said by the space toddler.  But making sense of something doesn't mean it makes sense.

You misused stupid, how can we listen to a person on their thoughts of the endings if they can't even use a common word properly? Answer? We can't.

[Aesieru]

KronAThrund wrote...

 Your suggested plot , I believed thats what was going on since mass effect 1 with the reapers. Not once did it occur to me synthetic live and organics would always be at edge. I prefer the galaxy runs out of resources idea. Like ffs  crop rotation.

The original plot was about Dark Energy devouring the galaxy.

The AI vs Synthetics vs Organics line was more a subplot. It was just switched around this time.