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[AlphaJarmel]

 Despite my hatred of the endings and the Catalyst stuff, the Cerberus storyline was handled pretty well. 

They explained where Cerberus got their army as well as some background stuff such as EDI and the Lazarus Project.  

The Illusive Man himself was also handled very very well.  He had a correct goal and despite everybody telling him it wasn't possible, turns out he was correct even if his methods were wrong and he couldn't personally control the Reapers due to indoctrination.  

[Dean_the_Young]

I disagree on all but one account: the means by which Cerberus got its army was pretty good.

Of course, that comes with a caveat: it could have been even better if the Cerberus army only occured as a result of keeping the base.


As for the rest: too much reliance on indoctrination, and for an unnecessary antagonism that wasn't properly built up in foreshadowing.

[AlphaJarmel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I disagree on all but one account: the means by which Cerberus got its army was pretty good.

Of course, that comes with a caveat: it could have been even better if the Cerberus army only occured as a result of keeping the base.

As for the rest: too much reliance on indoctrination, and for an unnecessary antagonism that wasn't properly built up in foreshadowing.

The indoctrination thing has been used throughout the series so it's not that big of a deal.  The Illusive Man also screwed himself over by using the control method via the implants without proper testing first.  Even then it shows how indoctrination works in that it subverts your goals into the Reapers' own.

He was very determined about his goals and truly believed he was doing the right thing.  Someone stated that he was a tragic figure and I would agree with that analysis.

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 09 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

The indoctrination thing has been used throughout the series so it's not that big of a deal.

Most of the time it wasn't, actually. Saren didn't need to be indoctrinated to work for the Reapers, and neither did most antagonists in ME2.

Even if it's common, it's still a writing weakness. Most overt uses of indoctrination in ME3 were, even though there were plenty of non-indoctrination excuses.

 The Illusive Man also screwed himself over by using the control method via the implants without proper testing first.  Even then it shows how indoctrination works in that it subverts your goals into the Reapers' own.

Why rely on that, though? Why not let someone else have the implants, someone fanatically loyal to TIM?

He was very determined about his goals and truly believed he was doing the right thing.  Someone stated that he was a tragic figure and I would agree with that analysis.

Cerberus throughout the series has had very weak demonstrations of doing the 'right' thing: other than the main course of events in ME2, the rest of its roles have had little clear benefit for anyone, even itself.

[Aimi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why rely on that, though? Why not let someone else have the implants, someone fanatically loyal to TIM?

I thought it was because of the control-freak angle, myself. Who else could he really trust to do that sort of thing? And would anyone else even know what to do without his perspective? I wasn't too much bothered by it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus throughout the series has had very weak demonstrations of doing the 'right' thing: other than the main course of events in ME2, the rest of its roles have had little clear benefit for anyone, even itself.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that TIM and the rest didn't think they were doing the right thing. Sounds like pretty much the whole twentieth century. 

Doesn't make it any better a use of story, of course, but I'm a fairly ******-poor judge of that anyway.

[AlphaJarmel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Most of the time it wasn't, actually. Saren didn't need to be indoctrinated to work for the Reapers, and neither did most antagonists in ME2.

Even if it's common, it's still a writing weakness. Most overt uses of indoctrination in ME3 were, even though there were plenty of non-indoctrination excuses.

 

I'll definitely agree it's a writing weakness and it should have never been used but it is a staple of the series so it's not like something that comes out of left field.  

 Why rely on that, though? Why not let someone else have the implants, someone fanatically loyal to TIM?

Well TIM always did have a trust issue so there is that.  I do agree though that they should have not indoctrinated him at all.  He still though maintained his original vision and you can see this.  It's just his methods that were extreme.  Road to hell and all that.  I think Bioware did this mainly because they didn't want TIM to be right in the end and if he wasn't indoctrinated then you could make a serious argument that he was in the right.

Cerberus throughout the series has had very weak demonstrations of doing the 'right' thing: other than the main course of events in ME2, the rest of its roles have had little clear benefit for anyone, even itself.

I think in ME3 though that Sanctuary at the time it was founded was the right thing.  Remember that the Alliance only found the Crucible in the courst of ME3.  Imagine what the Illusive Man must have been thinking prior to ME3 in that they had no weapon whatsoever to combat the Reapers and so the Illusive Man came up with the idea of possibly controlling the Reapers through their own technology.  It's a very harsh decision but weighing millions of people against trillions is a very easy call.

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why rely on that, though? Why not let someone else have the implants, someone fanatically loyal to TIM?

I thought it was because of the control-freak angle, myself. Who else could he really trust to do that sort of thing?

A Cerberus alien Commando.

And would anyone else even know what to do without his perspective? I wasn't too much bothered by it.

Someone who's so loyal they just listen to him, rather than the Reaper voices? Or someone who willing accepts a Cerberus control chip?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus throughout the series has had very weak demonstrations of doing the 'right' thing: other than the main course of events in ME2, the rest of its roles have had little clear benefit for anyone, even itself.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that TIM and the rest didn't think they were doing the right thing. Sounds like pretty much the whole twentieth century. 

Doesn't make it any better a use of story, of course, but I'm a fairly ******-poor judge of that anyway.

In this case, I'm saying I rather wish that Cerberus had been used in such a way that it could claim to be making the 'best' decision.

Its goals, however, don't quite explain its actions. Unless I'm missing something (haven't finished a complete playthrough), I can't see what TIM needed to work with the Reapers to meet his goals.

[AlphaJarmel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Its goals, however, don't quite explain its actions. Unless I'm missing something (haven't finished a complete playthrough), I can't see what TIM needed to work with the Reapers to meet his goals.

He doesn't work with the Reapers until the very very end of the game.  The rest is him trying to stop the Reapers actually.

[Aimi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A Cerberus alien Commando.

I did always like that idea.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone who's so loyal they just listen to him, rather than the Reaper voices? Or someone who willing accepts a Cerberus control chip?

Maybe. I never read the novels, so I don't know if this is how the whole Grayson thing worked, but my impression from ME2 and the whole Shepard situation was that TIM wasn't a huge fan of that control-chip idea, at least not for something so important.

Regardless, I thought it fit his character reasonably well.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In this case, I'm saying I rather wish that Cerberus had been used in such a way that it could claim to be making the 'best' decision.

Its goals, however, don't quite explain its actions. Unless I'm missing something (haven't finished a complete playthrough), I can't see what TIM needed to work with the Reapers to meet his goals.

I'm not totally sure that Cerberus was ever working with the Reapers. Hackett explicitly states that they're a "wild card", albeit fairly early on in the game. On Horizon, there are some comments made by Shepard and the squad to the effect that they're working together, but that seems like a simplification. We don't actually see it happening at any point in the game.

In some of the most gross instances of Cerberus troops attacking human interests, there are some strong hints that the soldiers have been sufficiently indoctrinated/huskified for the Reapers to actually subvert them against Cerberus. Hackett states that the attacks on Benning are not part of Cerberus' standard MO, and the videos on Horizon and on Cronos Station strongly suggest that Cerberus control of their troops, at least before Sanctuary's research bears fruit, can be tenuous. 

Other times, like the bomb plot on Tuchanka, Cerberus intervention can easily be construed as an attack on nonhuman interests that would be obviously harmful to a human-dominant agenda in a post-Reaper War galaxy. 

And ultimately, you can rationalize pretty much anything Cerberus does to hamper the war effort against the Reapers as resource conservation. Since they expect to control the Reapers eventually anyway, it's obviously in Cerberus interests to prevent Citadel forces from weakening them too much.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Most of the time it wasn't, actually. Saren didn't need to be indoctrinated to work for the Reapers, and neither did most antagonists in ME2.

Even if it's common, it's still a writing weakness. Most overt uses of indoctrination in ME3 were, even though there were plenty of non-indoctrination excuses.

I'll definitely agree it's a writing weakness and it should have never been used but it is a staple of the series so it's not like something that comes out of left field.  

Oh, indoctrination is fine in concept... it just shouldn't be abused or become the go to.

Here is some thoughts on the subject.

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A Cerberus alien Commando.

I did always like that idea.

Thank ye.

Maybe. I never read the novels, so I don't know if this is how the whole Grayson thing worked, but my impression from ME2 and the whole Shepard situation was that TIM wasn't a huge fan of that control-chip idea, at least not for something so important.

TIM's main objection with Shepard was psychological, not moral or practical. In the case of a willing volunteer, it'd be safe.

And ultimately, you can rationalize pretty much anything Cerberus does to hamper the war effort against the Reapers as resource conservation. Since they expect to control the Reapers eventually anyway, it's obviously in Cerberus interests to prevent Citadel forces from weakening them too much.

True. I hadn't thought of it that way, really.