45 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

 I'll admit, I'm disappointed by the lack of an epilogue or an ending that's so deliberately vague.  But we knee-jerked over the Multiplayer, and that turned out okay.  We knee-jerked over the dialog, and that turned out alright as well.  So I'm of the opinion we're all knee-jerking again.  I mean the game hasn't even been out for a whole week yet, and we're already gnawing at the bit.  Not that I don't understand your frustration, because believe me, I do.  I use to be in the same position.

But as I'm playing ME3, I managed to pick up on a few things that could possibly lead be dangling bait (much like Klendagon was in ME1):

-Conventional FTL travel still exists
Yes, it's slow as hell compared to Relays, but it just means it takes months to get somwhere, maybe a year or so (depending on where you want to go) and you have to make stops to refuel and what not.

-QECs still exist
Allers mentions a QEC research facility in UCLA, meaning they're working on popularizing or at least making it easier to make units that can be used to communicate with.
EDIT: The Normandy's QEC connects to both Hackett (whose fate is unknown) and to someplace on Earth (Anderson uses one to talk to the Normandy) so the Normandy isn't completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy

-Asari Cache
The one Matriarch in ME2 whose name eludes me at this moment tells you about the Asari making their own Relays, and we know that the Asari are sitting on a huge stash of Prothean knowledge and tech.

-Leftover Debris
The remains of the the Relays and the Citadel are RIPE for salvage. Especially since prior to this there's been no way to properly look at how a Mass Relay works, who knows what sort of discoveries you could make.

-Normandy's destination
Obviously the Normandy started on Earth, they couldn't have gotten shoved -that- far away, and the Normandy has gotten up from far worse (the beating it took against the Collectors during the Suicide mission) So it's obvious they aren't permanently stuck there. 

-Vagueness of the conclusion
Something that always struck me as odd was how the ending doesn't mention the fleet, Earth (beyond whether it survives) or the Normandy's crew.  That, and the company telling us we should keep our saves means they likely have something up their sleeves that we might not just be aware of yet.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 09 mars 2012 - 08:23 .

[coldlogic82]

Stops to refuel are a bit of a problem when there aren't any interstellar gas stations. The "red" ending implies that QEC's and Asari relay tech would be destroyed. The final clip with the creepy old dude (really, "my sweet," thanks for ending the series with a pedo) is a lush planet with two moons just like what the normandy crashed on, and vagueness of the conclusion when we were specifically told the ending would under no circumstances be a vague conclusion.

[Almostfaceman]

I'm not sure what you mean by knee-jerk. I've played the entire game. I really didn't like the ending. I'm telling Bioware about it. What's knee-jerk about that?

Because of past history with the company, I'm willing to be a future customer if they fess up to screwing up the ending and fix it. Otherwise, I'm no longer a customer. Happens with companies and customers all the time, if companies don't make something people like, then they lose customers. 

[lookingglassmind]

I think that the OP has a very valid point, and it's one that I am interested in observing in myself. I often wonder if our ability to let out our initial impressions in an immediate way for others to augment and validate (on internet forums) has changed the way that we percieve an experience of this nature. Are our opinions set in stone? Am I really going to hate these endings as intensely and adamantly in six months as I do now?

As of this moment, I am heralding the series as non-replayable because of the endings. But that may change once my emotions cool off.

I don't know.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. I've played the ending, and done little else but discuss it over the last day. And I still hate it.

[RazorrX]

Actually, there is no proof that any of that still exists. What the guardian says is that along with the reapers "MOST of your technology will be destroyed". So, unless we had FTL prior to finding Mars, and the prothean data - we no longer have FTL. This also rules out mass effect relays, etc.

The Normandy crashed on an uncharted planet and never left. The ending made it pretty clear that they did not have space flight.

The ME Franchise can not really go forward with the 3 endings they gave us because they are so different. Yes the relays are all blown to hell, but in 1 the bulk of technology was destroyed. In another the reapers were put on a leash and the galaxy would still have tech, and in the last every technological culture was forced into machine symbiosis. So 1 of those would have to become "canon" thus invalidating the other two in order for the franchise to go forward in time.

[comrade gando]

I sure hope they release DLC or a patch or something to fix this mess. Remember the ending to Fallout 3? They're different games so this might not apply in the same way, but Bethesda knew that f'd that up, so they released an expansion to fix that. This can't be left alone no way in heck man.
I'm not happy bob

[RiouHotaru]

@Pimpin, faceman:
It's knee jerk because we're jumping to wild conclusions like "Tali and Garrus starving to death" or "Incestuous Normandy Colony" and "Galactic civilization is permanently destroyed" and "galactic dark age", etc, etc.

@Coldlogic:
It is a definitive ending. Shepard stopped the Reapers from taking over the galaxy, civilization is saved. That's about as definitive as you can get. Shepard's fate and the fate of the Normandy are what's vague.

[Dracotamer]

I see the OP's points, but I see no way for Bioware to fix this without a complete revamp of all the endings.

[RiouHotaru]

RazorrX wrote...

Actually, there is no proof that any of that still exists. What the guardian says is that along with the reapers "MOST of your technology will be destroyed". So, unless we had FTL prior to finding Mars, and the prothean data - we no longer have FTL. This also rules out mass effect relays, etc.

The Normandy crashed on an uncharted planet and never left. The ending made it pretty clear that they did not have space flight.

The ME Franchise can not really go forward with the 3 endings they gave us because they are so different. Yes the relays are all blown to hell, but in 1 the bulk of technology was destroyed. In another the reapers were put on a leash and the galaxy would still have tech, and in the last every technological culture was forced into machine symbiosis. So 1 of those would have to become "canon" thus invalidating the other two in order for the franchise to go forward in time.

Not necessarily.  For starters, future games don't have to reference HOW the Reapers were stopped, merely that they were stopped at all.  Also, the guardian states that even Shepard has some synthetic tech, implying Shepard could be killed as well (but obviously Shepard is alive if you get that ending), so the reliability of "Most of your technology will be destroyed" is called into question.  Also, EDI can still appear in the Destroy ending with the Normandy crash, so obviously there's some discrephency.

[KingDan97]

They've said there won't be post mission DLC, the universe is in one of 10 radically different places outside of the relays(5 endings w/ and w/o the Collector base) because of the crucible just in the case of the Reapers, not even to mention the fact that all organic life in the galaxy may now be synthetic and vice-versa. They have nothing else planned because nothing makes any sense to stick at the end because nothing else could be done without the development of at least 3 different DLCs.

[RiouHotaru]

Dracotamer wrote...

I see the OP's points, but I see no way for Bioware to fix this without a complete revamp of all the endings.

Or, we get a Witch Hunt/Awakening style DLC.  I mean it wouldn't be the first time we've gotten major storyline DLC before (Arrival and LotSB)

[RiouHotaru]

KingDan97 wrote...

They've said there won't be post mission DLC, the universe is in one of 10 radically different places outside of the relays(5 endings w/ and w/o the Collector base) because of the crucible just in the case of the Reapers, not even to mention the fact that all organic life in the galaxy may now be synthetic and vice-versa. They have nothing else planned because nothing makes any sense to stick at the end because nothing else could be done without the development of at least 3 different DLCs.

Citation please on the "No post-mission DLC" statement?

[webhead921]

I'm a bit confused as to the fate of the normandy. Mass effect relays always go to a set destination, right? It's not like the relays just shoot ships to random places. So in the end, when the normandy goes through the relay, wouldn't it be easy for others to know where the normandy landed (I think it's safe to assume they are not stranded, but I might be missing something). I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just want to know what you guys think

[Hexxys]

RiouHotaru wrote...

-Conventional FTL travel still exists
Yes, it's slow as hell compared to Relays, but it just means it takes months to get somwhere, maybe a year or so (depending on where you want to go) and you have to make stops to refuel and what not.

Assuming you have access to enough fuel, which you don't.  And if the entries on conventional FTL travel are to be trusted, it'd still take ~22 years to cross the galaxy.

-QECs still exist
Allers mentions a QEC research facility in UCLA, meaning they're working on popularizing or at least making it easier to make units that can be used to communicate with.

It's horrifically inefficient and expensive.  99.9...% of the galaxy will have no access to it.

-Asari Cache
The one Matriarch in ME2 whose name eludes me at this moment tells you about the Asari making their own Relays, and we know that the Asari are sitting on a huge stash of Prothean knowledge and tech.

In the canon ending, all reaper-related tech is destroyed.  Now consider that the Protheans were just reverse engineering reaper tech...

-Leftover Debris
The remains of the the Relays and the Citadel are RIPE for salvage. Especially since prior to this there's been no way to properly look at how a Mass Relay works, who knows what sort of discoveries you could make.

It'll be thousands of years before that's possible.  Even the protheans, who were several magnitudes more advanced than this cycle's races, only had a vague idea of how the Citadel/mass relays worked.  They were able to replicate a relay, but it's clearly stated that it was still well beyond their full understanding.

-Normandy's destination
Obviously the Normandy started on Earth, they couldn't have gotten shoved -that- far away, and the Normandy has gotten up from far worse (the beating it took against the Collectors during the Suicide mission) So it's obvious they aren't permanently stuck there.

Aside from the plot hole regarding why they were even in a relay at that time...  What are they going to repair the Normandy with?  EDI is gone in the canon ending, so she can't help.  What are they going to eat?  Drink?  Even if there is something to eat, it's either going to be dextro or levo amino-acid based.  Which means either the Garrus and Tali will survive, or Joker/Liara/the rest of the human crew.  Not all of the above.  Most will die at best, all will die at worst.

-Vagueness of the conclusion
Something that always struck me as odd was how the ending doesn't mention the fleet, Earth (beyond whether it survives) or the Normandy's crew.  That, and the company telling us we should keep our saves means they likely have something up their sleeves that we might not just be aware of yet.

What's the point?  Without the things that made ME cool in the first place, there's no reason to return to the series.  For me, anyway.

[KingDan97]

RiouHotaru wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

They've said there won't be post mission DLC, the universe is in one of 10 radically different places outside of the relays(5 endings w/ and w/o the Collector base) because of the crucible just in the case of the Reapers, not even to mention the fact that all organic life in the galaxy may now be synthetic and vice-versa. They have nothing else planned because nothing makes any sense to stick at the end because nothing else could be done without the development of at least 3 different DLCs.

Citation please on the "No post-mission DLC" statement?

DLC talk begins at 1:20

[Warhawk7137]

Like I said in another thread... the Normandy had a QEC. And from what I was told in that thread, it was never stated to be destroyed (nor was its associated unit).

[Storenumber9]

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm not sure what you mean by knee-jerk. I've played the entire game. I really didn't like the ending. I'm telling Bioware about it. What's knee-jerk about that?

Because of past history with the company, I'm willing to be a future customer if they fess up to screwing up the ending and fix it. Otherwise, I'm no longer a customer. Happens with companies and customers all the time, if companies don't make something people like, then they lose customers. 

Pretty much this.

I mean, I'm not totally hating Bioware right now, and I think their reasoning for the ending was to do something a little more different from what fans expected, but I think the current ending grains against what fans wanted AND what was advertised as the last game in the series.

Which is, a game full of options that shows you just what happens after three games worth of variables come to a close.  It didn't deliver that. So, it's not a matter of knee-jerk reaction here, it's a matter of failure to deliver. Like I said, they probably had good intentions, but the execution was very flawed.


But, if they were to say "Hey, we kind of messed up, here's some new endings" and released some DLC, even if we had to pay for it, I wouldn't mind. (Though, I would prefer not to have to pay for new endings.)

[RiouHotaru]

Hexxys wrote...

Assuming you have access to enough fuel, which you don't.  And if the entries on conventional FTL travel are to be trusted, it'd still take ~22 years to cross the galaxy.

And why are you crossing the entire galaxy?

It's horrifically inefficient and expensive.  99.9...% of the galaxy will have no access to it.

Considering how many people in ME3 seemed to have access to them, it doesn't mean they can't be made cheaper, possibly.

In the canon ending, all reaper-related tech is destroyed.  Now consider that the Protheans were just reverse engineering reaper tech...

There's a difference though.  Thanix Cannon was basically sovereign's weapon made using turian engineering.  And that only took 2 years.

 It'll be thousands of years before that's possible.  Even the protheans, who were several magnitudes more advanced than this cycle's races, only had a vague idea of how the Citadel/mass relays worked.  They were able to replicate a relay, but it's clearly stated that it was still well beyond their full understanding.

Point taken, but it's clear in the current ME-universe that we have a much better understanding than the Protheans.

 

 Aside from the plot hole regarding why they were even in a relay at that time...  What are they going to repair the Normandy with?  EDI is gone in the canon ending, so she can't help.  What are they going to eat?  Drink?  Even if there is something to eat, it's either going to be dextro or levo amino-acid based.  Which means either the Garrus and Tali will survive, or Joker/Liara/the rest of the human crew.  Not all of the above.  Most will die at best, all will die at worst.

 
And there it is again.  You form a conclusion based on little evidence.  Because it isn't spelled out for you, you assume it can't be done.  Also, I've seen EDI walk out of the Normandy on a Destroy ending before, so...

 What's the point?  Without the things that made ME cool in the first place, there's no reason to return to the series.  For me, anyway.

 
And that's your perogative.  I'm just here speculating on some things that I've noticed while playing, is all.  Offering a different point of view that isn't the "Endings are all bad doom and gloom" perspective.

[Warhawk7137]

Also, FWIW, comm buoys are miniature mass relays.

[Sashimi_taco]

RiouHotaru wrote...

 
And there it is again.  You form a conclusion based on little evidence.  Because it isn't spelled out for you, you assume it can't be done.  Also, I've seen EDI walk out of the Normandy on a Destroy ending before, so...

What? how? That must be a bug. 

[RiouHotaru]

KingDan97 wrote...
DLC talk begins at 1:20

Ah, I stand corrected.  Makes sense though.  Earth is sort of a mess, and in two of the three endings Shepard is dead.  So it stands to reason that making an post-ending DLC wouldn't really amount to much.  Unless they do an ass-pull like Awakening and negate Shepard's death.

[KingDan97]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Also, FWIW, comm buoys are miniature mass relays.

The comm buoys sent signals through the mass relays, they weren't mass relays themselves. That's how I understand it anyway, if you've got evidence to the contrary though, offer it up.

[Warhawk7137]

KingDan97 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Also, FWIW, comm buoys are miniature mass relays.

The comm buoys sent signals through the mass relays, they weren't mass relays themselves. That's how I understand it anyway, if you've got evidence to the contrary though, offer it up.

Codex:

Real-time communication is possible thanks to networks of expensive mass relay comm buoys that can daisy-chain a transmission via lasers.
Comm buoys are maintained in patterns built outward from each
mass relay. The buoys are little more than a cluster of primitive,
miniature mass relays. Each individual buoy is connected to a partner on
another buoy in the network, forming a corridor of low-mass space.
Tightbeam communications lasers are piped through these "tubes" of FTL
space, allowing virtually instantaneous communication to anywhere on
the network. The networks connect across regions by communications
lasers through the mass relays.

If they weren't mass relays themselves, then communication within clusters would take forever.

[PsychoticPenguin]

Honestly I "get" the endings and I get what the OP is getting at. All three of the endings allow Shepard to "save" the universe by ending the reaper cycle and allowing current life to continue without being harvested. I understand that on an intellectual level.

But the focus of the ME series for me was the attachment I formed to the other characters, the attachment I formed to the ME universe as it existed within those games. The overarching theme was self-determinism through free will.  Even the written-in character deaths were about self-determinism (Mordin 'choosing' to die to cure the genophage, Thane 'choosing' to fight to save Shepard and the counsillor, Legion 'choosing' to upload himself to give the Geth awareness).  I wasn't fighting to just preserve life in the universe in some altruistic capacity, I was fighting to save my squadmates and to preserve the universe as I explored it and as I learned about it. The endings as they're written completely ignore the personal narratives of all those characters that were honestly THE most important and defining aspect of the series. They all essentially result in destruction of the ME universe as I know it with destruction of the relays. And they all undermine the self-determinism which was the basis of the series up until the end. Ultimately, you're told the way things are going to end, instead of being able to end the cycle on your terms. It's very anti-Shepard.

I also don't buy the argument that it's all in the name of "dark sci-fi" or "cyberpunk." I'm a fan of those literary styles but Mass Effect is not "dark fiction" or "cyberpunk". It's classical sci-fi, and the protagonist is a very typical hero-protagonist (this is reinforced throughout the series the way people gravitate to Shepard, verbally reinforce he/she as a leader and inspiration, and the fact that, while Shepard had to make difficult choices along the way, no true character flaws were ever revealed). As such, people were expecting an ending which fit with that hero-protagonist classical sci-fi feel. They wanted logical outcomes with their actions part of shaping that outcome.

Instead they are given a fatalistic dystopian ending with underlying themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good. They are fed a line ("Organics and synthetics cannot co-exist, so you must choose") which was vaguely nodded at a handful of times over the series but debunked by two of the major narrative threads (geth and EDI both obtaining self-awareness and choosing co-operation and co-inhabitation with organics). There are many narratives where the ending of ME3 would have been beautiful and apt, but not in the narrative they had crafted. The entire premise of the series is Shepard beating the odds and fighting against determinism. Ultimately, in a gaming series like the Mass Effect series, where the protagonist is a hero, people are going to want a hero's ending as an option. Someone else referenced it in another thread, but even as video games become more and more an "art form", they're still a video game. People want to feel a sense of accomplishment at the end, especially a narrative which spans 3 games. The three endings do not supply that.

Like I said, there are many ways to rationalize the endings of ME3. And I thing most people "get" them. But judging by the responses here and elsewhere on the internet, there is a large disconnect between what BioWare wanted with the end and what gamers wanted with the end. And I think a lot of it stems from this narrative disconnect.

Modifié par PsychoticPenguin, 09 mars 2012 - 03:37 .