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Something to consider regarding the endings (or why knee-jerk reactions aren't helping any of you)


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#26
KingDan97

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RiouHotaru wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...
DLC talk begins at 1:20




Ah, I stand corrected.  Makes sense though.  Earth is sort of a mess, and in two of the three endings Shepard is dead.  So it stands to reason that making an post-ending DLC wouldn't really amount to much.  Unless they do an ass-pull like Awakening and negate Shepard's death.

Earth can be destroyed in some playthroughs and in 2 of the 3 endings the reapers still exist. It would be a nightmare to deal with post game DLC, or even a game no matter how far out due to the vast differences in which races may have lived or died. Which is why I just don't get why Bioware would have chosen to cop out so much on the endings by making them lead to something we want to know about and then just make it so they can never feasibly tell us.

I also dislike how they basically made Shepard a bedtime story, parents will swear by anything to their kids if it makes them feel better(or old creepy men to their underaged slave brides as the case may be)

#27
Qutayba

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There are some very rational and intelligent critiques of the ending(s) out there - that fact that the knee-jerk reactions also seem to be negative means that a lot of people are intuitively feeling the flaws. I actually thought I liked the ending at first and that my sitting in silence at the end was more awe than pain, but I am disliking it more the more I think about it.

I love Bioware games and in many ways this is one of their best, but the ending just misfires catastrophically on so many levels and for so many reasons. The complaints are not just the typical nitpicking one finds in game forums.

#28
Warhawk7137

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Qutayba wrote...

There are some very rational and intelligent critiques of the ending(s) out there - that fact that the knee-jerk reactions also seem to be negative means that a lot of people are intuitively feeling the flaws. I actually thought I liked the ending at first and that my sitting in silence at the end was more awe than pain, but I am disliking it more the more I think about it.

I love Bioware games and in many ways this is one of their best, but the ending just misfires catastrophically on so many levels and for so many reasons. The complaints are not just the typical nitpicking one finds in game forums.


The endings may have flaws, but a lot of people seem to be making assumptions based on pure speculation just to make them seem even worse than they are, when those assumpti9ons don't fit with the lore.

BTW, I think the technological advancement of the Protheans as compared to the council races may be somewhat overstated, partly because we spent the entire first game thinking they were this fantastically advanced species, when in reality the vast majority of the tech we attributed to them wasn't built by them at all, but rather by the Reapers.

#29
Foulpancake

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after watching that youtube video i do have some hope that DLC might do something to clear up this mess. Because if they just put in some side stories that clear up what happened before, and the endings stay the same...i'm done with bioware

#30
KingDan97

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Warhawk7137 wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Also, FWIW, comm buoys are miniature mass relays.

The comm buoys sent signals through the mass relays, they weren't mass relays themselves. That's how I understand it anyway, if you've got evidence to the contrary though, offer it up.


Codex:

Real-time communication is possible thanks to networks of expensive mass relay comm buoys that can daisy-chain a transmission via lasers.
Comm buoys are maintained in patterns built outward from each
mass relay. The buoys are little more than a cluster of primitive,
miniature mass relays. Each individual buoy is connected to a partner on
another buoy in the network, forming a corridor of low-mass space.
Tightbeam communications lasers are piped through these "tubes" of FTL
space, allowing virtually instantaneous communication to anywhere on
the network. The networks connect across regions by communications
lasers through the mass relays.


If they weren't mass relays themselves, then communication within clusters would take forever.


I stand(partially) corrected. It still holds true that the relays were needed to transport data out of systems and based on the way they described it aparently these miniature mass relays are very weak output wise(otherwise the notmal mass relays wouldn't be needed). It's like the solar panel on a garbage calculator from the 70's is it technically a solar panel? Yes. Is it reasonable to use them to power your car? No, because they're much too inefficient compared to higher grade solar panels, which have taken us decades of additional development to learn how to make.

I should note however that I don't think the Galaxy is screwed by any means, at least not for everyone. I think it's pretty clear that the Reapers likely didn't make the Mass Relays, as all but one had apparently been culled before reaching that point of technological advancement. In the merge(and control) ending the reapers still float around the galaxy, there's no real reason to assume that with the processing speed they likely possess that they couldn't recreate them through advanced computational processes to advance themselves to the point where they would know how to make them.

Same thing with the Geth, who are honestly still my favorite cantidates for the arbiters of this as even with the Reaper upgrades a collective hivemind still exists, a hivemind that has proven itself capable of incredible feats and there's no real reason that a species of relative geniuses that communicates at the speed of light with a population numbering in the trillions couldn't feasibly advance themselves scientifically within at most a few months to the point where they could be building working models of a new FTFTFTFTFTL system(that's faster than faster than faster than faster than faster than faster than light travel for those who are wondering, since I didn't know if quantum entanglement was the system by which the mass relays work). The galaxy isn't doomed, it's just that it's so preposterous that with all the knowledge at the disposal of the races in the galaxy that somehow it's even been considered that the destruction of the relays would be anything more than a few decades setback, which is what the epilogue heavily implies.

#31
Tyloric

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RazorrX wrote...

Actually, there is no proof that any of that still exists. What the guardian says is that along with the reapers "MOST of your technology will be destroyed". So, unless we had FTL prior to finding Mars, and the prothean data - we no longer have FTL. This also rules out mass effect relays, etc.

The Normandy crashed on an uncharted planet and never left. The ending made it pretty clear that they did not have space flight.

The ME Franchise can not really go forward with the 3 endings they gave us because they are so different. Yes the relays are all blown to hell, but in 1 the bulk of technology was destroyed. In another the reapers were put on a leash and the galaxy would still have tech, and in the last every technological culture was forced into machine symbiosis. So 1 of those would have to become "canon" thus invalidating the other two in order for the franchise to go forward in time.


Well, I dunno. EDI was still in the ending, so 'most' technology seem relative.

#32
Warhawk7137

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Not sure why we wouldn't have FTL, anyway. It's conceptually pretty simple - element zero, a power source, and conventional thrusters, basically (and technically the Normandy had a big enough eezo core to not even need thrusters).

#33
IanPolaris

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Tyloric wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Actually, there is no proof that any of that still exists. What the guardian says is that along with the reapers "MOST of your technology will be destroyed". So, unless we had FTL prior to finding Mars, and the prothean data - we no longer have FTL. This also rules out mass effect relays, etc.

The Normandy crashed on an uncharted planet and never left. The ending made it pretty clear that they did not have space flight.

The ME Franchise can not really go forward with the 3 endings they gave us because they are so different. Yes the relays are all blown to hell, but in 1 the bulk of technology was destroyed. In another the reapers were put on a leash and the galaxy would still have tech, and in the last every technological culture was forced into machine symbiosis. So 1 of those would have to become "canon" thus invalidating the other two in order for the franchise to go forward in time.


Well, I dunno. EDI was still in the ending, so 'most' technology seem relative.


Actually no.  EDI is only in the ending (and thus only lives) if you chose the MERGE ending which is the only one that preserves technology (but the relays still go boom).

-Polaris

#34
RiouHotaru

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PsychoticPenguin wrote...

Instead they are given a fatalistic dystopian ending with underlying themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good. They are fed a line ("Organics and synthetics cannot co-exist, so you must choose") which was vaguely nodded at a handful of times over the series but debunked by two of the major narrative threads (geth and EDI both obtaining self-awareness and choosing co-operation and co-inhabitation with organics). There are many narratives where the ending of ME3 would have been beautiful and apt, but not in the narrative they had crafted. The entire premise of the series is Shepard beating the odds and fighting against determinism. Ultimately, in a gaming series like the Mass Effect series, where the protagonist is a hero, people are going to want a hero's ending as an option. Someone else referenced it in another thread, but even as video games become more and more an "art form", they're still a video game. People want to feel a sense of accomplishment at the end, especially a narrative which spans 3 games. The three endings do not supply that.

Like I said, there are many ways to rationalize the endings of ME3. And I thing most people "get" them. But judging by the responses here and elsewhere on the internet, there is a large disconnect between what BioWare wanted with the end and what gamers wanted with the end. And I think a lot of it stems from this narrative disconnect.


Wouldn't the Synthesis ending technically be "beating the odds", then?  The Guardian claims co-habitation is impossible, so Synthesis forces it so that co-habitation MUST be possible.

#35
ziyon conqueror

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One of the endings I was expecting for ME3 was Shepard finding a solution to end the cycle and survive (cause hey, in certain dialogues, you promise the love interest to come back alive, not meet in heaven). I expected when we defeat the Reapers, Shepard declares it mission accomplished, get medals, talk to the galaxy of exploring the unknown, etc.

And destroying the mass relays is stupid. Sure, the species of the galaxy are forced to depend on them, but we don't know if the communications network can have the greatest minds of the galaxy devise a faster FTL drive near efficient as a hyperdrive from Star Wars, caused they'd be as slow as a warp drive on Star Trek (I'm referring to how far a ship can go across the galaxy). Therefore, I demand that Bioware come up with a DLC that brings up a fourth option that saves everything. I don't want Shepard dying.

#36
KingDan97

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ziyon conqueror wrote...

One of the endings I was expecting for ME3 was Shepard finding a solution to end the cycle and survive (cause hey, in certain dialogues, you promise the love interest to come back alive, not meet in heaven). I expected when we defeat the Reapers, Shepard declares it mission accomplished, get medals, talk to the galaxy of exploring the unknown, etc.

And destroying the mass relays is stupid. Sure, the species of the galaxy are forced to depend on them, but we don't know if the communications network can have the greatest minds of the galaxy devise a faster FTL drive near efficient as a hyperdrive from Star Wars, caused they'd be as slow as a warp drive on Star Trek (I'm referring to how far a ship can go across the galaxy). Therefore, I demand that Bioware come up with a DLC that brings up a fourth option that saves everything. I don't want Shepard dying.

I think the option to walk away and provided you had enough forces defeat the reapers should've existed.

#37
Jenop

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PsychoticPenguin wrote...

Honestly I "get" the endings and I get what the OP is getting at. All three of the endings allow Shepard to "save" the universe by ending the reaper cycle and allowing current life to continue without being harvested. I understand that on an intellectual level.

But the focus of the ME series for me was the attachment I formed to the other characters, the attachment I formed to the ME universe as it existed within those games. The overarching theme was self-determinism through free will.  Even the written-in character deaths were about self-determinism (Mordin 'choosing' to die to cure the genophage, Thane 'choosing' to fight to save Shepard and the counsillor, Legion 'choosing' to upload himself to give the Geth awareness).  I wasn't fighting to just preserve life in the universe in some altruistic capacity, I was fighting to save my squadmates and to preserve the universe as I explored it and as I learned about it. The endings as they're written completely ignore the personal narratives of all those characters that were honestly THE most important and defining aspect of the series. They all essentially result in destruction of the ME universe as I know it with destruction of the relays. And they all undermine the self-determinism which was the basis of the series up until the end. Ultimately, you're told the way things are going to end, instead of being able to end the cycle on your terms. It's very anti-Shepard.

I also don't buy the argument that it's all in the name of "dark sci-fi" or "cyberpunk." I'm a fan of those literary styles but Mass Effect is not "dark fiction" or "cyberpunk". It's classical sci-fi, and the protagonist is a very typical hero-protagonist (this is reinforced throughout the series the way people gravitate to Shepard, verbally reinforce he/she as a leader and inspiration, and the fact that, while Shepard had to make difficult choices along the way, no true character flaws were ever revealed). As such, people were expecting an ending which fit with that hero-protagonist classical sci-fi feel. They wanted logical outcomes with their actions part of shaping that outcome.

Instead they are given a fatalistic dystopian ending with underlying themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good. They are fed a line ("Organics and synthetics cannot co-exist, so you must choose") which was vaguely nodded at a handful of times over the series but debunked by two of the major narrative threads (geth and EDI both obtaining self-awareness and choosing co-operation and co-inhabitation with organics). There are many narratives where the ending of ME3 would have been beautiful and apt, but not in the narrative they had crafted. The entire premise of the series is Shepard beating the odds and fighting against determinism. Ultimately, in a gaming series like the Mass Effect series, where the protagonist is a hero, people are going to want a hero's ending as an option. Someone else referenced it in another thread, but even as video games become more and more an "art form", they're still a video game. People want to feel a sense of accomplishment at the end, especially a narrative which spans 3 games. The three endings do not supply that.

Like I said, there are many ways to rationalize the endings of ME3. And I thing most people "get" them. But judging by the responses here and elsewhere on the internet, there is a large disconnect between what BioWare wanted with the end and what gamers wanted with the end. And I think a lot of it stems from this narrative disconnect.


Honestly, this. This whole thing sums it up for me. I couldn't agree more with this post than I already did sitting here and reading it.

I'll preface my frustration by saying that I chose the "Destroy the Reaper" ending and nothing else, because to be perfectly honest, after experiancing that one ending I did not want to go back to have myself crushed by any of the other endings.

I loved ME1 and 2, I really did. I bought all the DLC I could, played through every minute, tried to work out every possible character story with everyone. I'm not an achievement hunter, but Mass Effect was one of the ONLY games that I actually felt compelled to get every achievement for. I was even looking forward to Achievement hunting my way through ME3, but I don't feel like I can pop the disk into my 360 anymore, simply because all it does is remind me of the travesty that was the ending of ME3.

I'll try to be brief with my major complaint, since I can deal with the supposed "vaugueness" of the endings, but I don't know how brief I can be since it's something I feel is the most soul crushing. It's the matter of your companions/friends/love interests.

Now I knew going in that something major was going to happen in ME3, and every lovey dovey or friendship heavy cutscene I couldn't stop blurting out "Oh Ashley/Garrus/Liara/Tali is going to die" since it was pretty clear they were dangling that in front of us. But apparently I really need to take my George R.R. Martin lessons to heart and remember that the most obvious conclusion isn't always the right one. I also need to remember the very important lesson that Martin just LOVES to teach people: No one is safe. Ever.

But I ignored these lessons, always thinking that Shepard would come out fine, Shepard would live, Shepard would survive. Apparently I was wrong. And now it feels like all that hard work I spent on ME1 and 2 going through companion stories, which Bioware has basically made next to impossible to ignore, since the higher "affection" you have with your companions, the more likely they are to live through major events, and the more likely they are to actually help you out when you need it the most, was absolutely useless.

#38
jb1983

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RiouHotaru wrote...

 I'll admit, I'm disappointed by the lack of an epilogue or an ending that's so deliberately vague.  But we knee-jerked over the Multiplayer, and that turned out okay.  We knee-jerked over the dialog, and that turned out alright as well.  So I'm of the opinion we're all knee-jerking again.  I mean the game hasn't even been out for a whole week yet, and we're already gnawing at the bit.  Not that I don't understand your frustration, because believe me, I do.  I use to be in the same position.

But as I'm playing ME3, I managed to pick up on a few things that could possibly lead be dangling bait (much like Klendagon was in ME1):

-Conventional FTL travel still exists
Yes, it's slow as hell compared to Relays, but it just means it takes months to get somwhere, maybe a year or so (depending on where you want to go) and you have to make stops to refuel and what not.

-QECs still exist
Allers mentions a QEC research facility in UCLA, meaning they're working on popularizing or at least making it easier to make units that can be used to communicate with.

-Asari Cache
The one Matriarch in ME2 whose name eludes me at this moment tells you about the Asari making their own Relays, and we know that the Asari are sitting on a huge stash of Prothean knowledge and tech.

-Leftover Debris
The remains of the the Relays and the Citadel are RIPE for salvage. Especially since prior to this there's been no way to properly look at how a Mass Relay works, who knows what sort of discoveries you could make.

-Normandy's destination
Obviously the Normandy started on Earth, they couldn't have gotten shoved -that- far away, and the Normandy has gotten up from far worse (the beating it took against the Collectors during the Suicide mission) So it's obvious they aren't permanently stuck there. 

-Vagueness of the conclusion
Something that always struck me as odd was how the ending doesn't mention the fleet, Earth (beyond whether it survives) or the Normandy's crew.  That, and the company telling us we should keep our saves means they likely have something up their sleeves that we might not just be aware of yet.


Here's the thing, I'm not sure that Bioware is intending any of this. 

However, everything you list would make for excellent DLC or possibly another game. So, please submit your application to Bioware's writing deparment.

And I'm not being sarcastic - everything you mentioned would actually improve this game. 

#39
mupp3tz

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Did Bioware encourage us to keep our saves? I didn't know this. I was thinking about what the point of NG+ is, all points considered.

#40
OchreJelly

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Above post perfectly sums up my feelings. \\o/

#41
Pinely

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I can certainly imagine ways that the story could allow for the ME Universe to return to be more like it was before the Reapers.


But, that's not really the point. The ending does nothing to tell us this. It is a deus ex machina that comes flying at us after a bitter struggle. And, for being a "god from the machine", we get surprisingly little insight into anything. We're presented with 3 choices and no real explanation about these choices, not to mention absolutely no lead up to these choices.


So, yeah, it's great that the Asari might have Relays and the Fleet around Earth might have survived to continue the Citadel Council in some form. But we shouldn't have to infer all this based on guess work about stuff in the codex and hints. That isn't satisfying. And that lack of satisfaction is where these knee-jerk rage outs are coming from.

#42
Savber100

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Great post OP.

#43
ziyon conqueror

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I bet in a parallel universe right now, our parallel selves are reveling in satisfaction that Shepard found a better way to end the cycle and live happily ever after. This is what I've been waiting for for two years and two months since ME2.

And the ending is left opened ended. If the relays are destroys, there's no way the different races can contact each other unless they all have quantum entanglement communicators. It totally sucks.

#44
RiouHotaru

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IanPolaris wrote...

Actually no.  EDI is only in the ending (and thus only lives) if you chose the MERGE ending which is the only one that preserves technology (but the relays still go boom).

-Polaris


Actually, this is untrue.  I've had numerous friends of mine state that you CAN see EDI emerging from the Normandy on an ending other than Merge (including Destroy).  Hell, the guardian's conversation isn't even consistent.  Someone I knew went for Destroy and was confused when I asked whether the guardian said technology would be destroyed.

#45
Elessie

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RiouHotaru wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually no.  EDI is only in the ending (and thus only lives) if you chose the MERGE ending which is the only one that preserves technology (but the relays still go boom).

-Polaris


Actually, this is untrue.  I've had numerous friends of mine state that you CAN see EDI emerging from the Normandy on an ending other than Merge (including Destroy).  Hell, the guardian's conversation isn't even consistent.  Someone I knew went for Destroy and was confused when I asked whether the guardian said technology would be destroyed.



Is there a link to any video with EDI in a red beam ending?  I have only seen her in blue and green and conspiculously missing in red.

#46
RiouHotaru

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Making an edit to the main topic:

The Normandy has a QEC that connects to Earth (the one Anderson uses to talk to you), so they aren't permanently cut off from Earth.