70 réponses à ce sujet

[Luan]

 I'll start by stating the fact that I know there's an endings discussion and I don't want the people that hate the endings destroying this thread.

After experiencing the endings I do feel a little unsatisfied, however, I was always more invested in the Mass Effect Universe than Shepard himself. I'm okay with the mass relays/citadel being destroyed because I feel they weren't supposed to be there in the first place and they're a reminder of the Reaper's legacy. Plus we can probably build our own by now.

I truly think the endings were okay, now, I don't mean the endings as a WHOLE, I mean the main plot of the Reapers. I think the destruction/control of the Reapers are fully realized at high costs (I expected Shepard to die no matter what, his sacrifice would not be in vain.), I think it has a really old sci-fi feel a la 2001 A Space Odissey.

What I think was left unanswered for me, was all the sub-plots of Mass Effect, such as will your crew be okay, are all the races going to survive, if shepard lives, will he see them again, the LI etc, etc.
What I most would've liked to know is the state of the galaxy afterwards, and more about the Reapers.

So I guess what I'm really asking is if the main plot ending is okay, but is overthrown by the all the other sub-plots.
Am I wrong to think that? I've always liked when something plays with the meaning of life, which ME3 did for me, because it makes me think of where we will be years from now. I've always liked the mysterious (even though it scares me a bit), like the Reapers and their creators (whom I'd love to know more about).

So is it okay to like the endings but feel dissatisfied with the conclusion of Shepard's sacrifices? I'm confused and trying to understand if I like the endings or not.

Sorry if this was long. 

[StrawberryRainPop]

i hate the ending.

The whole reaper situation and the guardian is TERRIBLE writing.
Just think, this is what they are saying.

To prevent organics and synthetics from killing each other, the "Guardians" (the kid at the end of the game) mind control Synthetics to kill organics.
That = 0 logic.

So to have a deux ex machina at the end to "convince" shepard that the only way to win is to use these 3 bad choices, it was very disappointing, and did not take any choices that you made in the previous games into account. None of the sub plots were resolved, no closure for the characters, which is the best part of the series.

So yes of course you feel dissatisfied with the conclusion. We see Shepard dieing, thats it. Its lazy and bad writing.

That said, the game was amazing up to that point. But the answer and rationale of the Guardians is amazingly stupid.

[Kerwin]

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the endings. They aren't "the worst. Possible. Thing. Ever!" That certain individuals are saying, but the sheer lack of any kind of closure leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Where the heck did The Normandy crash? Why was it in transit during the middle of the war? What happened to the people on the Citadel? Heck what became of -any- of the choices you made throughout all three games?

The ending answers exactly zero questions raised, and instead leaves you with even more. How will the fleets and peoples you gathered at Earth survive now that you've destroyed the Relays? How will Galactic civilization itself continue?

To answer your questin, I feel it's perfectly acceptable to not hate the endings, but feel dissatisfied, because that's exactly how I feel.

I do have a theory though, well, not a theory, because that would imply I have some kind of proof to back me up. That everything after Anderson dying was just a hallucination or a dream. Think about it. Why would the "Guardian" take the exact form of a child who has been haunting Shepard's dreams ever since Earth? How would it know to take such a specific form unless it was a product of Shepard's own mind. perhaps Shepard himself was the Catalyst, and that his decision was similar to when he entered the Geth reality, simply the computer making a familiar environment for his mind. His survival, if you were lucky enough to do so, could also be explained by his will power allowing him to break free from that reality, rather than succumb to it. I dunno, I'm probably just overly hopeful, and my idea doesn't really help with any of the real problems in the ending as is.

Modifié par Kerwin, 09 mars 2012 - 03:06 .

[Luan]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

i hate the ending.

The whole reaper situation and the guardian is TERRIBLE writing.
Just think, this is what they are saying.

To prevent organics and synthetics from killing each other, the "Guardians" (the kid at the end of the game) mind control Synthetics to kill organics.
That = 0 logic.

So to have a deux ex machina at the end to "convince" shepard that the only way to win is to use these 3 bad choices, it was very disappointing, and did not take any choices that you made in the previous games into account. None of the sub plots were resolved, no closure for the characters, which is the best part of the series.

So yes of course you feel dissatisfied with the conclusion. We see Shepard dieing, thats it. Its lazy and bad writing.

That said, the game was amazing up to that point. But the answer and rationale of the Guardians is amazingly stupid.

I'm sorry but I thought the Reapers were the ascended form of the previous civilizations, and not synthetics.
I understand what you mean, but I also think there's a different side to the Reapers, they have always said that their reason's are incomprehensible, we don't know what goes on inside a reaper, nor if the synthetics would still be good millions of years from now.

[raeting]

Luan wrote...

What I think was left unanswered for me, was all the sub-plots of Mass Effect, such as will your crew be okay, are all the races going to survive, if shepard lives, will he see them again, the LI etc, etc.
What I most would've liked to know is the state of the galaxy afterwards, and more about the Reapers.

So I guess what I'm really asking is if the main plot ending is okay, but is overthrown by the all the other sub-plots.
Am I wrong to think that? I've always liked when something plays with the meaning of life, which ME3 did for me, because it makes me think of where we will be years from now. I've always liked the mysterious (even though it scares me a bit), like the Reapers and their creators (whom I'd love to know more about).

So is it okay to like the endings but feel dissatisfied with the conclusion of Shepard's sacrifices? I'm confused and trying to understand if I like the endings or not.

Sorry if this was long. 

I think, mostly, people agree with your sentiment. I certainly do. We were all pretty emotionally invested in the galaxy, our squadmates, and so on. The end left it all too much in the dark, and vague enough for some to think that the very vast majority of the galaxy was wiped out (I don't think it was, but still, that level of vagueness is a problem).

I also agree with your sentiment that I don't want such a small portion of the whole to ruin the whole -- or at least sour it -- but that is how I feel. 

The endings certainly could have worked, I just wanted some closure on the galaxy's state, our squadmate's fate -- which isn't necessarily a good one if FTL is gone, and it is unclear as to whether or not it is due to the Normandy crash scene -- and so on.

As to whether or not you like the endings, only you can decide. Give it some thought, maybe go watch them again and see what you can pick up.

[Lyrandori]

Hmmm...

This gets me thinking that to explain a lot about the ending, but mostly to explain about what's happens to the galaxy, the species, the people (and individuals like the friends, teammates, LI, etc) AFTER the Reapers are gone (from whichever ending Shepard goes for) then BioWare would have had to create AT LEAST some sort of Epilogue at the end, similar to that of Dragon Age: Origins (or Awakening), in which we do KNOW what happens to this and that person, or this and that race because it is canonically explained textually as a an Epilogue.

[Luan]

So far all this has been extremely helpful guys

[Luigitornado]

"What I think was left unanswered for me, was all the sub-plots of Mass Effect, such as will your crew be okay, are all the races going to survive, if shepard lives, will he see them again, the LI etc, etc.
What I most would've liked to know is the state of the galaxy afterwards, and more about the Reapers."

I think this is what really has people upset about the endings. Looking back at it, and the original discussion with Sovereign, Bioware has been setting up the series as something more than "giant ancient robots who want to kill us." This became more evident by the events of ME2 where we learn of what the Collectors were doing, what happened to the Protheans, and other dialogue from Harbringer. The series always had some sort of metaphysics vibe, and after playing ME3, this became even more clearer than it did before.

It's like the importance of the characters, the races, the conflicts, and even Shepard took a back seat to a greater issue: the balance of galactic chaos and evolutionary(life) order.

It is very bittersweet because I want to know what happened to the various races, characters, and the conflicts I've solved over the years, but the ending is so fitting for what Bioware has been setting up that I kind of don't want a normal "and then this person/race did this" ending because it would feel like a cop out. At a story's standpoint, and how Bioware finished of the series, all the above does not matter...only Galactic order does.

What really is getting people is the fate of the Normandy. I've been thinking about it as well. Not so much about what happens to the crew on the planet after they crash, just why Bioware chose to show us the crew's fate. Would people have been content knowing the Normandy and everyone on it died? Would people have been content with the Normandy unaffected by Shepard's final choice? Would people have been content if the Normandy and its crew were forgotten and their fate never shown?

As a player who has felt very attached to these games and the Normandy and her crew, it is another one of those bittersweet moments. I love the endings;I feel like they make sense, I just am damn depressed about it all x_x which I think was Bioware's intention, which means they really are the master's of their craft.

I wish these forums would have more people discussing the endings as they were, instead of dissolving into an immature rant about the plot holes and how they want their money back. More interesting that way.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 09 mars 2012 - 04:46 .

[Captain_Obvious]

It's totally fine for you to "not hate" the endings. It's totally fine for you to like or love the endings. What I think is the problem is that the endings don't fit any of my Shepards. They are all the same "matrix revolutions" what the heck was that endings. From what I'm seeing here, they don't fit a lot of people's Shepards. So disappointing to me.

[Luigitornado]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

i hate the ending.

The whole reaper situation and the guardian is TERRIBLE writing.
Just think, this is what they are saying.

To prevent organics and synthetics from killing each other, the "Guardians" (the kid at the end of the game) mind control Synthetics to kill organics.
That = 0 logic.

So to have a deux ex machina at the end to "convince" shepard that the only way to win is to use these 3 bad choices, it was very disappointing, and did not take any choices that you made in the previous games into account. None of the sub plots were resolved, no closure for the characters, which is the best part of the series.

So yes of course you feel dissatisfied with the conclusion. We see Shepard dieing, thats it. Its lazy and bad writing.

That said, the game was amazing up to that point. But the answer and rationale of the Guardians is amazingly stupid.

That's metaphysics for you. If you wanted a clear cut answer to why the Reapers are doing what they are doing, then you got it.

Something about galatic balance, and how organics will always create synthetic life, and how synthetic life will always kill/rebel against its creators. It was hinted at a few times in the game that this has always been a trait of each cycle.

The Reapers job is to create balance by ending the cycle to make room for new organic life. The idea is that if the Reapers did not exsist, than organic life would cease to exsist because they would be wiped out before they have a chance to evolve. Throw into the whole thing about the Reapers being the final evolutinary step for top organic life and you can get a pretty black and white explanation.

And it is in no way lazy writing. It's just not what you expected.

[Luan]

Luigitornado wrote...

"What I think was left unanswered for me, was all the sub-plots of Mass Effect, such as will your crew be okay, are all the races going to survive, if shepard lives, will he see them again, the LI etc, etc.
What I most would've liked to know is the state of the galaxy afterwards, and more about the Reapers."

I think this is what really has people upset about the endings. Looking back at it, and the original discussion with Sovereign, Bioware has been setting up the series as something more than "giant ancient robots who want to kill us." This became more evident by the events of ME2 where we learn of what the Collectors were doing, what happened to the Protheans, and other dialogue from Harbringer. The series always had some sort of metaphysics vibe, and after playing ME3, this became even more clearer than it did before.

It's like the importance of the characters, the races, the conflicts, and even Shepard took a back seat to a greater issue: the balance of galactic chaos and evolutionary(life) order.

It is very bittersweet because I want to know what happened to the various races, characters, and the conflicts I've solved over the years, but the ending is so fitting for what Bioware has been setting up that I kind of don't want a normal "and then this person/race did this" ending because it would feel like a cop out. At a story's standpoint, and how Bioware finished of the series, all the above does not matter...only Galactic order does.

What really is getting people is the fate of the Normandy. I've been thinking about it as well. Not so much about what happens to the crew on the planet after they crash, just why Bioware chose to show us the crew's fate. Would people have been content knowing the Normand and everyone on it died? Would people have been content with the Normandy unaffected by Shepard's final choice? Would people have been content if the Normandy and its crew were forgotten and their fate never shown?

As a player who has felt very attached to these games and the Normandy and her crew, it is another one of those bittersweet moments. I love the endings;I feel like they make sense, I just am damn depressed about it all x_x which I think was Bioware's intention, which means they really are the master's of their craft.

I wish these forums would have more people discussing the endings as they were, instead of dissolving into an immature rant about the plot holes and how they want their money back. More interesting that way.

You just made a lot more sense of it all for me.
Appreciate it.
I think that's exactly what I feel, I've been so extremely attached to these games (because I find the universe so extremely compelling). I think the endings make sense, but it is all a tad unsatisfying and quite depressing.
things are looking up for me ^^

[picodeath123]

The way I took it to be is that whatever unknown force the catalyst is was created(or evolved) to, in it's thinking, to preserve life in the galaxy.

The logic being that organics develop tech to the point of having super AI's that find organics to dangerous to their existence and wipe them out to survive. Effectively leaving them unchecked to kill any developing life before it has the chance to flourish leaving a galaxy ruled by machines.

The logic being that the harvest of advanced life every 50,000 years stops the technology from advancing to that dangerous a level and gives life a chance to keep existing.

They kill organics so that organics continue to populate the galaxy and preserve the old races in the form of reapers.

Another theory that crossed my mind was that the 50,000 year cycle was just a sub-cycle of a larger cycle.

One way I thought of it was. Intelligent life rose up and created AI's that eventually turned and started killing every organic in the galaxy (ie, reapers) and eventually the race(s) found a way to control them and created something that could control it (ie catalyst) and started the cycle to prevent more AI uprisings. Then a civilization rises up that eventually destroys it freeing them of the cycle, and then it starts all over again by creating AI that eventually start taking over.

No real proof on any of this, just thoughts.

[Luigitornado]

picodeath123 wrote...

The way I took it to be is that whatever unknown force the catalyst is was created(or evolved) to, in it's thinking, to preserve life in the galaxy.

The logic being that organics develop tech to the point of having super AI's that find organics to dangerous to their existence and wipe them out to survive. Effectively leaving them unchecked to kill any developing life before it has the chance to flourish leaving a galaxy ruled by machines.

The logic being that the harvest of advanced life every 50,000 years stops the technology from advancing to that dangerous a level and gives life a chance to keep existing.

They kill organics so that organics continue to populate the galaxy and preserve the old races in the form of reapers.

Another theory that crossed my mind was that the 50,000 year cycle was just a sub-cycle of a larger cycle.

One way I thought of it was. Intelligent life rose up and created AI's that eventually turned and started killing every organic in the galaxy (ie, reapers) and eventually the race(s) found a way to control them and created something that could control it (ie catalyst) and started the cycle to prevent more AI uprisings. Then a civilization rises up that eventually destroys it freeing them of the cycle, and then it starts all over again by creating AI that eventually start taking over.

No real proof on any of this, just thoughts.

These are the types of discussions we should be having! Great job!

[niaxz]

I just wanted Shep and Liara to have a daughter

[Luan]

Now starting my second playthrough of the game...I must admit, no matter what way I look at it, I feel like I'm fighting for nothing. I know that's not the case, but the endings did leave an emotional gap on me so to speak.
I almost feel as if I want to side with the Reapers, as if they do indeed keep order in the galaxy.
If BioWare wanted to invoke emotions that are incredibly strong on me, well they have.

[zer0netgain]

Luigitornado wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...
To prevent organics and synthetics from killing each other, the "Guardians" (the kid at the end of the game) mind control Synthetics to kill organics.
That = 0 logic.

That's metaphysics for you. If you wanted a clear cut answer to why the Reapers are doing what they are doing, then you got it.

Something about galatic balance, and how organics will always create synthetic life, and how synthetic life will always kill/rebel against its creators. It was hinted at a few times in the game that this has always been a trait of each cycle.

The Reapers job is to create balance by ending the cycle to make room for new organic life. The idea is that if the Reapers did not exsist, than organic life would cease to exsist because they would be wiped out before they have a chance to evolve. Throw into the whole thing about the Reapers being the final evolutinary step for top organic life and you can get a pretty black and white explanation.

And it is in no way lazy writing. It's just not what you expected.

Maybe not "lazy" writing, but it certainly should have been better.

I get the "organics create synthetics who ultimately slaughter them" issue and that the creators of the Reapers did what they did to ensure the galaxy would not be permanently purged of organic life, but while the Reapers are organic/synthetic constructs, there is so little insight as to what they really are that you can't appreciate the as the "solution" the the problem.

If I was Shepard and I was told what the Reapers were created to do, I would have to ask, "How does having all advanced organic life snuffed out by giant machines benefit them?"

I'm sure the catalyst would say, "Not snuffed out....ascended."

To which I'd then ask, "What do these races do in Reaper form that makes it worth while to chose that over being slaughtered?"

That's the issue I think is left totally unaddressed.  We see every reaper being a tool of harvesting and slaugther.  We don't see them doing anything that gives life meaning.  Several billion souls are liquified and poured into a organic/synthetic construct that has a "mind" but in whcih all those people lose their individuality to form some kind of gestalt consciousness whose purpose is .... ????

The lack of insight on how being converted into Reaper form was supposed to be a GOOD thing is where it all falls apart.  I would have liked there to be an ending where you LET the Reapers finish what they start becuase it was ultimately in the interest of all advanced organic life to let it continue, but that case is never made.

Modifié par zer0netgain, 09 mars 2012 - 05:29 .

[Taleroth]

Luigitornado wrote...

And it is in no way lazy writing. It's just not what you expected.

It actually is pretty lazy writing. As it is not properly foreshadowed and is inconsistent with recurring themes of the series.

The Krogan are treated as a more genuine threat to all organic life than the Geth are.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 mars 2012 - 05:34 .

[Luan]

Taleroth wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

And it is in no way lazy writing. It's just not what you expected.

It actually is pretty lazy writing. As it is not properly foreshadowed and is inconsistent with recurring themes of the series.

The Krogan are treated as a more genuine threat to all organic life than the Geth are.

I'm sure it's lazy writing... If you don't like the ending, this thread is not for you.

[jlb524]

zer0netgain wrote...
To which I'd then ask, "What do these races do in Reaper form that makes it worth while to chose that over being slaughtered?"

From the perspective of the Reapers/catalyst boy, they (harvested organics) help maintain order instead of possibly adding to chaos that might arise if they continue to evolve and create potentially dangerous AI.

There's no choice in the matter for the organics.  

Modifié par jlb524, 09 mars 2012 - 06:04 .

[Luigitornado]

zer0netgain wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...
To prevent organics and synthetics from killing each other, the "Guardians" (the kid at the end of the game) mind control Synthetics to kill organics.
That = 0 logic.

That's metaphysics for you. If you wanted a clear cut answer to why the Reapers are doing what they are doing, then you got it.

Something about galatic balance, and how organics will always create synthetic life, and how synthetic life will always kill/rebel against its creators. It was hinted at a few times in the game that this has always been a trait of each cycle.

The Reapers job is to create balance by ending the cycle to make room for new organic life. The idea is that if the Reapers did not exsist, than organic life would cease to exsist because they would be wiped out before they have a chance to evolve. Throw into the whole thing about the Reapers being the final evolutinary step for top organic life and you can get a pretty black and white explanation.

And it is in no way lazy writing. It's just not what you expected.

Maybe not "lazy" writing, but it certainly should have been better.

I get the "organics create synthetics who ultimately slaughter them" issue and that the creators of the Reapers did what they did to ensure the galaxy would not be permanently purged of organic life, but while the Reapers are organic/synthetic constructs, there is so little insight as to what they really are that you can't appreciate the as the "solution" the the problem.

If I was Shepard and I was told what the Reapers were created to do, I would have to ask, "How does having all advanced organic life snuffed out by giant machines benefit them?"

I'm sure the catalyst would say, "Not snuffed out....ascended."

To which I'd then ask, "What do these races do in Reaper form that makes it worth while to chose that over being slaughtered?"

That's the issue I think is left totally unaddressed. We see every reaper being a tool of harvesting and slaugther. We don't see them doing anything that gives life meaning. Several billion souls are liquified and poured into a organic/synthetic construct that has a "mind" but in whcih all those people lose their individuality to form some kind of gestalt consciousness whose purpose is .... ????

The lack of insight on how being converted into Reaper form was supposed to be a GOOD thing is where it all falls apart. I would have liked there to be an ending where you LET the Reapers finish what they start becuase it was ultimately in the interest of all advanced organic life to let it continue, but that case is never made.

That's understanble. If I would attempt to explain it I'd say that there is a greater importance put on perserving ogranic life in the galaxy and ensuring that various species are given a chance to evolve than say individual cycle and those ogranics. It's very metaphysical and I'm going to accept it for what I got.

[Arokel]

Ok whole "Reapers dont make sense" argument seems to be based around the fact that people are confused about how the Reapers save organic life from synthetics.

This doesn't make sense to many people but to me it does. The Reapers go in and destroy and harvest the advanced civilizations but leave primitive ones alone. This allows these civilizations to flourish until it begins again. It seems to me that the Catalyst and, presumably, the people who created it made the Reapers because they feared that an uncontrolled synthetic force would wipe out ALL organic life, not just advanced or even sentient organic life.

It does seem to bit odd to us but after all. These people weren't human.

[StrawberryRainPop]

Kerwin wrote...



I do have a theory though, well, not a theory, because that would imply I have some kind of proof to back me up. That everything after Anderson dying was just a hallucination or a dream. Think about it. Why would the "Guardian" take the exact form of a child who has been haunting Shepard's dreams ever since Earth? How would it know to take such a specific form unless it was a product of Shepard's own mind. perhaps Shepard himself was the Catalyst, and that his decision was similar to when he entered the Geth reality, simply the computer making a familiar environment for his mind. His survival, if you were lucky enough to do so, could also be explained by his will power allowing him to break free from that reality, rather than succumb to it. I dunno, I'm probably just overly hopeful, and my idea doesn't really help with any of the real problems in the ending as is.

yep, i thought of that too. It just made no sense why it took the form of a child, and the guardian is just poor writing.
On the other hand, if it is a hallucination, and its just Shepards dream that he won the war, it could have been really poetic if that plotline was developed more.

But i think we're just trying to find a better ending in this bull**** that we got.

[Luigitornado]

Taleroth wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

And it is in no way lazy writing. It's just not what you expected.

It actually is pretty lazy writing. As it is not properly foreshadowed and is inconsistent with recurring themes of the series.

The Krogan are treated as a more genuine threat to all organic life than the Geth are.

?

The Reaper's purpose has been forshaddowed since the beggining of the series. The threat of the Geth and fear of synthetic life. All that "evil" nonesense spouted by Soverign, all that talk about how their exsistence transcends our understanding of the universe. The repeating cycles. The show down at the Collector's base and the revelation of what they planned on doing with humanity. The various hints in the third game from the VI and Prothean squad mate (I know...dlc) that organic life has always followed a cycle of creating synthetic life, just for synthetic life to grow to powerful in a way where organics feel threatened by it.

The whole series has been building up to some "higher purpose than thou" moment.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 09 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[Luigitornado]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Kerwin wrote...



I do have a theory though, well, not a theory, because that would imply I have some kind of proof to back me up. That everything after Anderson dying was just a hallucination or a dream. Think about it. Why would the "Guardian" take the exact form of a child who has been haunting Shepard's dreams ever since Earth? How would it know to take such a specific form unless it was a product of Shepard's own mind. perhaps Shepard himself was the Catalyst, and that his decision was similar to when he entered the Geth reality, simply the computer making a familiar environment for his mind. His survival, if you were lucky enough to do so, could also be explained by his will power allowing him to break free from that reality, rather than succumb to it. I dunno, I'm probably just overly hopeful, and my idea doesn't really help with any of the real problems in the ending as is.

yep, i thought of that too. It just made no sense why it took the form of a child, and the guardian is just poor writing.
On the other hand, if it is a hallucination, and its just Shepards dream that he won the war, it could have been really poetic if that plotline was developed more.

But i think we're just trying to find a better ending in this bull**** that we got.

How was it that Legion explained how Shepard was viewing Geth memories? This could be used to explain why the Guardian/Catalsyt was seen as the child.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 09 mars 2012 - 06:15 .

[Knightsaber2010]

They borrowed actors from Battlestar Galactica, might as well borrow the ending too. Compare them for a while and you'll start to shake your head.