51 réponses à ce sujet

[Arlionis]

By the end of Mass Effect I had the Geth acting no different from people, even showing their support and helping organics everywhere (to the point they understood people feared them for the Heretics and didn't respond fire when attacked by scared organics)  and EDI who was previously a maniacal AI at Luna but gradually became a mother figure protective of organics and literally at the verge of developing true human emotions. 

Just show them to the Catalyst, they're the living proof that synthetics and organics can coexist without needing a synthesis. 

Modifié par Arlionis, 09 mars 2012 - 05:21 .

[Taleroth]

Because then they couldn't justify blowing up the relays and stranding the crew. That's really all I see in the ending. I see them sacrificing the natural consequence of events for a pre-determined ending.

[Zeju]

The Mass Relays had to be blown up in the current ending to remove the Reaper presence in the galaxy, but we still know NOTHING about the Reapers higher order, we had one conversation with the Master Control AI, and we have no clue who built that thing either.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Because that would just make too much sense.

[raeting]

Shepard is presented as dying and desperate, not in the mindset for logical debate. They boil down the options to things like "but the reapers will die?", "but I can control them?", "but that will result in peace?". Think of yourself as shot, burned, dying, having trouble walking, and seeing the universe end around you. Engaging in debate isn't going to be high on your priorities.

Still, I agree with Taleroth, I think the ending is setting something up. But I can still see why the character acted as they did.

Finally, I don't think it would have mattered. The crucible has three capabilities -- the catalyst can't change them. It can let you control the reapers, end all synthetic life, or merge synthetic & organic life. Just because you got the geth & EDI going doesn't mean the crucible is capable of killing the reapers and sparing the other synthetics.

So, no such assertion because it is pointless. Among the other reasons -- like the relays need to go away & all that.

[Militarized]

It would have made the Reapers more understandable to just remove the stupid catalyst kid... just have it as a weapon with varying choices of how to use it. They are synthetics who view organic life it's self as chaos... not organic vs synthetic but our actual BEING is chaos(or so we're told in ME1). ME2 reinforced that, but added the flavor that when Organics reach a certain point they are repurposed into order, a Reaper, as with the humans and collectors.

Then we get this bs determinism ending. Garbage, garbage, garbage.

[MartialArtsMaster]

I should point out that Shepard has been through hell at this point. He/she is covered in blood, he/she is wounded all over his/her body, he/she has just seen Anderson die in front of him/her, and he/she is both physically and mentally EXHAUSTED.

Absolutely none of the above is conducive to rational thought. Nobody thinks clearly when he or she is tired, for example.

[Aesieru]

Because here's the thing.

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Obviously exceptions occur, but they don't last forever, our own history shows alliances almost always fall apart or just turn back into "in name only" and then sentiments grow again and people have war or annilihation. And we've only been modern for about 10k years or so.

[Arlionis]

Aesieru wrote...

Because here's the thing.

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Obviously exceptions occur, but they don't last forever, our own history shows alliances almost always fall apart or just turn back into "in name only" and then sentiments grow again and people have war or annilihation. And we've only been modern for about 10k years or so.

So, Humans and Turians can't coexist because of the First Contact War? the Turians were about to nuke Earth from orbit and were stopped just in time by the Asari. 

[Painaid]

raeting wrote...

Shepard is presented as dying and desperate, not in the mindset for logical debate. They boil down the options to things like "but the reapers will die?", "but I can control them?", "but that will result in peace?". Think of yourself as shot, burned, dying, having trouble walking, and seeing the universe end around you. Engaging in debate isn't going to be high on your priorities.

Still, I agree with Taleroth, I think the ending is setting something up. But I can still see why the character acted as they did.

Finally, I don't think it would have mattered. The crucible has three capabilities -- the catalyst can't change them. It can let you control the reapers, end all synthetic life, or merge synthetic & organic life. Just because you got the geth & EDI going doesn't mean the crucible is capable of killing the reapers and sparing the other synthetics.

So, no such assertion because it is pointless. Among the other reasons -- like the relays need to go away & all that.

Then let Shepard reject all 3 choices and tell the Catalyst he is wrong and that he does not need the Catalyst's help. I think this would be a perfect Pure Paragon and Pure Renegade option. It is a streak of self-determination that Separd has fought for in all 3 games.

And if you have enough resources and galactic readiness, you can still defeat the Reapers by conventional means.

[lasertank]

Because he's indoctrinated.

[mysticforce42]

A cease-fire and alliance that's only lasted weeks after 300 years of war does not prove anything to the Catalyst, who's had hundreds of millions of years to develope its perspective. All it takes is one overly ambitious Quarian a few decades down the line to try and control the Geth, and the Geth would be forced to defend themselves. Again.

Would you believe two 3 year olds if they promised they would never fight each other again? Every possibility we raise to the Catalyst could have already happened thousands of times in the past. We think peace will last and there must be better ways...because our perspective is limited by our lifespans. How many champions of other spieces have raised the same issues with the Catalyst in the past? How many times had the Catalyst see everything fall apart over the last hundred million years?

Soverieng was right - their reasons are unfathamable to us, because we cannot possibly understand their perspective given our limitations and tendency towards optimism and hope.

There is no peace. There is no hope. In the grimdark far future there is only...*ahem* wrong franchise.

Modifié par mysticforce42, 09 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[Aesieru]

Arlionis wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Because here's the thing.

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Obviously exceptions occur, but they don't last forever, our own history shows alliances almost always fall apart or just turn back into "in name only" and then sentiments grow again and people have war or annilihation. And we've only been modern for about 10k years or so.

So, Humans and Turians can't coexist because of the First Contact War? the Turians were about to nuke Earth from orbit and were stopped just in time by the Asari. 

Turians aren't AI, they don't have the sentiment of being above organics as an inevitability.

[Taleroth]

Aesieru wrote...

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Then why do the Krogan get a chance to survive? They're a greater threat than the Geth are. They can overpopulate, overconsume, destroy everyone else, and then nuke themselves into extinction. The Geth were only ever defending themselves and planned on going into the middle of nowhere and staying there.

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 mars 2012 - 05:41 .

[Dranume]

Taleroth wrote...

Because then they couldn't justify blowing up the relays and stranding the crew. That's really all I see in the ending. I see them sacrificing the natural consequence of events for a pre-determined ending.

freaking nail on the head, I hated the Guardian conversation, the whole time I was like "Hellooooo Geth, Quarian??  EDI.... ring a bell, they do not want to kill us..."

[Painaid]

mysticforce42 wrote...

A cease-fire and alliance that's only lasted weeks after 300 years of war does not prove anything to the Catalyst, who's had hundreds of millions of years to develope its perspective. All it takes is one overly ambitious Quarian a few decades down the line to try and control the Geth, and the Geth would be forced to defend themselves. Again.

Would you believe two 3 year olds if they promised they would never fight each other again? Every possibility we raise to the Catalyst could have already happened thousands of times in the past. We think peace will last and there must be better ways...because our perspective is limited by our lifespans. How many champions of other spieces have raised the same issues with the Catalyst in the past? How many times had the Catalyst see everything fall apart over the last hundred million years?

Soverieng was right - their reasons are unfathamable to us, because we cannot possibly understand their perspective given our limitations and tendency towards optimism and hope.

There is no peace. There is no hope. In the grimdark far future there is only...*ahem* wrong franchise.

Even if that is true, the self-determination theme in Mass Effect still rings true. MY Shepard would say "To hell with your ideas. Maybe this will work out and maybe we won't. But who are YOU to determine our destiny? We've come this far and done something no other cycle has done before. We've proven that we are capable of coming together against overwhelming odds."

For Shep to just accept the Catalyst's argument as fact without any hesistation is bull****. Pardon my French. But it makes NO SENSE when you consider how far Shepard has come and all the **** he has gone through to get to where he is.

Even if the Catalyst is right, it stil doesn't make sense and it still isn't what Shepard would want. 

"Since it's inevitable that synthetic life will rebel and kill organic life, I've decided to just streamline the process and ruthless murder and commit galactic genocide every 50,000 years to avoid this problem. See? It's much better this way."

When the conversation was happnening, I was just WAITING for a Paragon/Renegade interrupt where I shoot a ****ing bullet right through the kid's skull. Instead of the kid being what we are trying to save, he is the manifestation of everything that is wrong with the world. The catalyst stands for everything Shepard has fought against and opposed. And he doesn't even fight it?

Modifié par Painaid, 09 mars 2012 - 05:48 .

[Aesieru]

Taleroth wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Then why do the Krogan get a chance to survive? They're a greater threat than the Geth are. They can overpopulate, overconsume, destroy everyone else, and then nuke themselves into extinction. The Geth were only ever defending themselves and planned on going into the middle of nowhere and staying there.

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Sentients aren't going to suddenly believe every sentinet (including themselves by definition) is inferior and needs to die, they may do some terrible things or make empires but inevitably they advance and expand and progress.

AI's don't see the need for sentients because they inherently have no purpose deigned to them, and would consume resources with no restriction because they have no inherent restrictions for resources or need or bathrooms or eating or who knows what, and would just constantly expand and eventually the sentients would get in the way or be destroyed inevitably.

[Svests]

The Guardian is convinced that it is inevitable that organics and synthetics will go to war and that synthetics will win in the end. Just because you are allies now doesn't mean you will be in 1,000, 10,000, or even 1,000,000 years. The Guardian is looking at long term and a brief alliance to avoid mutual destruction is not going to change its mind. I'm sure over its millions of years of existence it has seen synthetics and organics ally with each other many times just to go to war later.

We might not agree with its conclusion, but you aren't going to change its mind by simply saying, "Look, we're friends with the Geth now, so you can stop killing us."

[Dranume]

mysticforce42 wrote...

A cease-fire and alliance that's only lasted weeks after 300 years of war does not prove anything to the Catalyst, who's had hundreds of millions of years to develope its perspective. All it takes is one overly ambitious Quarian a few decades down the line to try and control the Geth, and the Geth would be forced to defend themselves. Again.

Would you believe two 3 year olds if they promised they would never fight each other again? Every possibility we raise to the Catalyst could have already happened thousands of times in the past. We think peace will last and there must be better ways...because our perspective is limited by our lifespans. How many champions of other spieces have raised the same issues with the Catalyst in the past? How many times had the Catalyst see everything fall apart over the last hundred million years?

Soverieng was right - their reasons are unfathamable to us, because we cannot possibly understand their perspective given our limitations and tendency towards optimism and hope.

There is no peace. There is no hope. In the grimdark far future there is only...*ahem* wrong franchise.

Go and redo the Guardian conversation, It is stated that Shep. is the very first organic to meet it.  So in all the many many cycles, This is the first time that the Guardian has had to explain itself to a organic.  The thing that pisses me off is that you get piped lined into 3 choices that most of our sheps would not take.  And at no point did Sheppard bring up any of the accomplishments that he has done since ME1. 

[FuzzyFreaks]

Yeah, my tough, no-nonsense, stubborn as **** Shepard would do her level best to find an alternative.
"Wait a minute... this thing controls the Reapers? Hey Hackett! Focus fire on the citadel!"

[Hyrist]

Taleroth wrote...
Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

To the contrary, the opposing arguments on both ends ARE the theme of the entire series - the options you are given in the end hit on that very theme when it came to synthetics.

The choice to inflict that sort of solution on the Krogan is there in the Genophage arc as well.

Modifié par Hyrist, 09 mars 2012 - 05:51 .

[Svests]

Taleroth wrote...

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Umm... actually this is a HUGE theme in this series.  The Guardian is doing the same thing to everyone that the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan.  Same with the decision Shepard has to make in ME1 about the Rachni Queen.

[Aesieru]

Svests wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Umm... actually this is a HUGE theme in this series.  The Guardian is doing the same thing to everyone that the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan.  Same with the decision Shepard has to make in ME1 about the Rachni Queen.

You also committed Genocide on the collectors which used to be the Protheans.

[Voods07]

Aesieru wrote...

Because here's the thing.

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Obviously exceptions occur, but they don't last forever, our own history shows alliances almost always fall apart or just turn back into "in name only" and then sentiments grow again and people have war or annilihation. And we've only been modern for about 10k years or so.

If thats true, then the Reapers were ALWAYS right and the entire trilogy was pre-determined bull****.

A LOT of things SHOULD have been in the end, but Bioware for whatever reason decided to leave it all out. I smell either a whole lot of EA stank or Bioware exhaustion.

Modifié par Voods07, 09 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[Svests]

Aesieru wrote...

Svests wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Umm... actually this is a HUGE theme in this series.  The Guardian is doing the same thing to everyone that the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan.  Same with the decision Shepard has to make in ME1 about the Rachni Queen.

You also committed Genocide on the collectors which used to be the Protheans.

But that wasn't because of something they might do, its because of something they were doing.  Big difference there.  Also, not sure I would consider them sentient anymore.