51 réponses à ce sujet

[lookingglassmind]

Hmm. I support this thread. It's making me think about the Catalyst again. I never considered it's gestalt view. Also, to frame the Crucible as merely a weapon with 3 simple functions is fantastic.

[hismastersvoice]

Svests wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Umm... actually this is a HUGE theme in this series. The Guardian is doing the same thing to everyone that the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan. Same with the decision Shepard has to make in ME1 about the Rachni Queen.

Apples and oranges. Krogan were a credible, "righ here right now" threat to just about every Council race. Same with the Rachni. The moron god assumes that a synthetic threat may arise and uses synthetics to kill organics so that organics can't build synthetics that will kill them {smilie}.

It also ignores the concept of synthetics potentially having souls (Legion), introduced in the very same game, and how life is life no matter if it's based on carbon or silicon (EDI "evolving" human like feelings, Geth being driven by basic survival instincts).

The moron god is in essence an anti evolutionary. If I was to to meet him in person, I'd laugh then go for a renegade prompt on his face.

[Taleroth]

Svests wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Umm... actually this is a HUGE theme in this series.  The Guardian is doing the same thing to everyone that the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan.  Same with the decision Shepard has to make in ME1 about the Rachni Queen.

That's why it's a contradiction. Before you can choose to reject the premise. Here Shepard is forced to accept it.

[Svests]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Apples and oranges. Krogan were a credible, "righ here right now" threat to just about every Council race. Same with the Rachni. The moron god assumes that a synthetic threat may arise and uses synthetics to kill organics so that organics can't build synthetics that will kill them {smilie}.

It also ignores the concept of synthetics potentially having souls (Legion), introduced in the very same game, and how life is life no matter if it's based on carbon or silicon (EDI "evolving" human like feelings, Geth being driven by basic survival instincts).

The moron god is in essence an anti evolutionary. If I was to to meet him in person, I'd laugh then go for a renegade prompt on his face.

The Krogan are not at all a "right here right now" threat to the council races.  They MIGHT be a threat in the future if the genophage is cured, but "right here right now" they would just get slaughtered in a war.  This is a major theme with Mordin's "fixing" the genophage from ME2.  He did it, not because they were a threat then, but because he believed they would be a threat later if he didn't act.

Same with the Rachni Queen.  1 queen on her own is no threat to anyone "right here right now."  However sometime in the future her offspring might be a threat.  If Shepard kills her its because he believes the Rachni might be a threat many years later.

The Guardian is also acting to end a potential threat just kil Mordin and (possibly) Shepard.  Its actually doing it in a very similar way to how the genophage works.  Get rid of enough organics to end the threat, but don't kill them all off.

Nobody says you have to agree with the Guardian, or that its even remotely correct.  In fact, most villains in most stories are simply wrong.  However, that doesn't mean there isn't some logic (even if ultimately flawed) behind what its doing.  Especially when the themes that motivated its actions are actually very common in the story.

[Svests]

Taleroth wrote...

Svests wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Umm... actually this is a HUGE theme in this series.  The Guardian is doing the same thing to everyone that the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan.  Same with the decision Shepard has to make in ME1 about the Rachni Queen.

That's why it's a contradiction. Before you can choose to reject the premise. Here Shepard is forced to accept it.

You are not forced to accept it at all.  The only ending that really implies acceptance of the Guardian's ideas is synthesis.  If you choose to destroy or control the reapers you can still reject that premise.

[SovereignWillReturn]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Because that would just make too much sense.

This

[lockdown51]

From the sounds of it Bioware has finally jumped the shark. That's a real shame.

[The_Other_M]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Because that would just make too much sense.

This

^^THIS x10000

[The_Other_M]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Svests wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Genocide of sentient races because they MIGHT do something bad later on is flimsy. And contrary to recurring themes of the entire freaking series.

Umm... actually this is a HUGE theme in this series. The Guardian is doing the same thing to everyone that the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan. Same with the decision Shepard has to make in ME1 about the Rachni Queen.

Apples and oranges. Krogan were a credible, "right here right now" threat to just about every Council race. Same with the Rachni. The moron god assumes that a synthetic threat may arise and uses synthetics to kill organics so that organics can't build synthetics that will kill them {smilie}.

It also ignores the concept of synthetics potentially having souls (Legion), introduced in the very same game, and how life is life no matter if it's based on carbon or silicon (EDI "evolving" human like feelings, Geth being driven by basic survival instincts).

The moron god is in essence an anti evolutionary. If I was to to meet him in person, I'd laugh then go for a renegade prompt on his face.

Sounds like you just wrote the "true ending" for this game.
The Guardian = true final boss

[Zen_Mojo]

The real point to the series is this: if you treat sentience with respect, dignity, and freedom and as equals, it will treat you likewise.

The themes of using other species and peoples who have the capacity for thought as tools to an end is what Mass Effect is about. And the most preeminent example of this is the creation of artificial intelligence. The question is, how much responsibility do you owe to other beings that are the result of your machinations. Do you owe them their freedom, your stewardship, your basic respect for their right to be living beings with desires?

The Rachni were defending their territory when they attacked the other advanced races. But even the Turians shot first and asked questions later after killing and losing incredible numbers to curious humans. The Turians were no better than the Rachni despite all of their vaunted order and discipline.

Then look at the Krogan. Unleashed and then immediately oppressed after dying by the hordes to Rachni forces. Which isn't to say they were the best of cultures, but they needed informed, enlightened guidance in their choices, not chains.

And the geth? The geth were threatened with genocide and lobotomization just for having the capacity to make choices and learn. The first documented AI rebellion was caused by the organics, not the synthetics. And even then, there were synthetics and organics who cared about each other and died for each other.

Which makes the argument that synthetics are by design doomed to kill their creators a fairly ignorant one when you consider it is the organics who kill each other. But what's more interesting is that the organics make more organics and the organics learn to make peace with each other. They form societies and integrated civilizations and organize into complex systems of mutual beneficence. Organics grow and learn. And they could do so alongside synthetics if given a chance.

The Guardian's solution is to commit genocide to protect their genetic information and cultural advancements? Really? Considering how many Prothean artifacts are lying around waiting to be discovered, how many fossils are dug out of the ground only to bring extinct species back to life, The Guardian's solution to global conflict is to kill everything with a protein base and a civilization in order to preserve it? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. The Guardian could just as easily set his tightbeam to TIVO and set his Reaper Destroyers out on archaeological digs!!!

EDIT: The real final fight to the game should have been a a philosophical debate with your character bringing up examples of how organics have learned to live in harmony with different species and how The Guardian is too high on himself and too distant and too ignorant to recognize this.

If you uncovered enough lore and helped enough people, you could just name drop a character you met or an event you participated in (maybe a conflict you resolved peacefully) and the final score would have used your reputation plus the people you've helped or hurt in order to determine the TRUE ending to the game.  For those people who just played the multiplayer, they could have an easy color-coded Doors 1 through 3 ending, but those of us who put thought into our alliances and had to make sacrifices through all three games could talk our way to a gentleman's agreement or even talk the Citadel into realizing he is no longer needed.

P.S., this is actually how the Fallout Series endings can be resolved, which is probably why they're so legendary.

Modifié par Zen_Mojo, 09 mars 2012 - 08:12 .

[Reiella]

Aesieru wrote...

Because here's the thing.

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Obviously exceptions occur, but they don't last forever, our own history shows alliances almost always fall apart or just turn back into "in name only" and then sentiments grow again and people have war or annilihation. And we've only been modern for about 10k years or so.

I think the destroy storyline also covered it.  Eventually another race will create a synthetic that will be successful and rebel [consider the gambling AI in ME1].

Yes it is a big mess of punishing for what may happen.  But, well, AI logic and stupid long lifespan.  And holding the belief that it is better to destroy all civilization so that their library may stand for all time.
 

[alternatefallen]

I'm just bummed Commander Badass couldn't get the Idiot God AI to Saren itself. 8|

Also bummed because Harbinger wasn't around, because taunting him into Sarening himself would have been effing hilarious.

[Aesieru]

alternatefallen wrote...

I'm just bummed Commander Badass couldn't get the Idiot God AI to Saren itself. 8|

Also bummed because Harbinger wasn't around, because taunting him into Sarening himself would have been effing hilarious.

Harbinger wiped out the entire force coming towards the beacon, then flies away like you don't matter. That was a big taunt.

[Ianamus]

Taleroth wrote...

Because then they couldn't justify blowing up the relays and stranding the crew. That's really all I see in the ending. I see them sacrificing the natural consequence of events for a pre-determined ending.

This. It makes no sense and ruins all of the fantastic character development for the Geth and EDI in the previous game. Mass Effect 2 went through all of that effort to show that AI and organic can co-exist... and then Mass Effect 3's **** ending just throws it all away! 

[alternatefallen]

Reiella wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Because here's the thing.

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Obviously exceptions occur, but they don't last forever, our own history shows alliances almost always fall apart or just turn back into "in name only" and then sentiments grow again and people have war or annilihation. And we've only been modern for about 10k years or so.

I think the destroy storyline also covered it.  Eventually another race will create a synthetic that will be successful and rebel [consider the gambling AI in ME1].

Yes it is a big mess of punishing for what may happen.  But, well, AI logic and stupid long lifespan.  And holding the belief that it is better to destroy all civilization so that their library may stand for all time.
 

For srs this time though, isn't this a very hypothetical question? I mean, maybe in the distant future someone will make AI, AI will rebel, thefore WARS, FOREVER? 

As Commander Badass, you have facts on your side. Fact: Quarians and Geth are at a tentative peace, which you brokered. Eventually and Maybe just don't cut it as arguments. :/

[SovereignWillReturn]

I liked the Dark Energy storyline SO MUCH BETTER.

Dark Energy threatens the Universe, Reapers kill species to keep them from accumulating too much Dark Energy because the more the Relays are used, the more builds up, each cycle bleeds off Dark Energy as it resets. Humanity genetic diversity is amazing, and as Shepperd as the example, the Reapers wanna eat the humans, reaperize them, and hopefully with super-advanced Reaper combined human intelligence, they find a solution to the Spiral Nemesis...err...I mean Dark Energy.

You can say Eff off reapers, use your fleets to obliterate them, or allow Humanity to become a Reaper, or other possibilities.

[Aesieru]

alternatefallen wrote...

Reiella wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Because here's the thing.

Just because you had a very temporary alliance or are friends now, doesn't mean that all the situations in the past where they were enemies or AI's were killing everyone or the AI's were killing the people who made the Reapers originally... are all rendered null and void.

Obviously exceptions occur, but they don't last forever, our own history shows alliances almost always fall apart or just turn back into "in name only" and then sentiments grow again and people have war or annilihation. And we've only been modern for about 10k years or so.

I think the destroy storyline also covered it.  Eventually another race will create a synthetic that will be successful and rebel [consider the gambling AI in ME1].

Yes it is a big mess of punishing for what may happen.  But, well, AI logic and stupid long lifespan.  And holding the belief that it is better to destroy all civilization so that their library may stand for all time.
 

For srs this time though, isn't this a very hypothetical question? I mean, maybe in the distant future someone will make AI, AI will rebel, thefore WARS, FOREVER? 

As Commander Badass, you have facts on your side. Fact: Quarians and Geth are at a tentative peace, which you brokered. Eventually and Maybe just don't cut it as arguments. :/

You forget the Guardian has been there for millions of years and taken tons of civilizations that had the same issues... a little peace for a few weeks doesn't mean anything to it.

[xtorma]

MartialArtsMaster wrote...

I should point out that Shepard has been through hell at this point. He/she is covered in blood, he/she is wounded all over his/her body, he/she has just seen Anderson die in front of him/her, and he/she is both physically and mentally EXHAUSTED.

Absolutely none of the above is conducive to rational thought. Nobody thinks clearly when he or she is tired, for example.

What about the magical medigel? Hit num key 3 all better?

shepard....i can see you are dieing there anderson.....no soup for you!

[ticklefist]

lasertank wrote...

Because he's indoctrinated.

That crossed my mind as well. 

[Reiella]

alternatefallen wrote...

For srs this time though, isn't this a very hypothetical question? I mean, maybe in the distant future someone will make AI, AI will rebel, thefore WARS, FOREVER? 

As Commander Badass, you have facts on your side. Fact: Quarians and Geth are at a tentative peace, which you brokered. Eventually and Maybe just don't cut it as arguments. :/

And as AI badass, you have transfinite experience on your side.

Taking the guardian at his word, the goal was to catalog the life in a given cycle before the inevitable organic/synthetic war did so.

However, I will say your fact line is a very argument in support of the AI mindset, keyword "tentative".  And 'maybe' there won't be another organic/synthetic war.

It's all a premise justification argument.

[Arios1570]

As to those saying the Geth/Quarian alliance is temporary. Any of you notice that the Geth preserved Rannoch? They understood the fear their creators had for them and only fought in self defense or in defense of the Quarians who supported them. If anything, the war was temporary. An AI's first thoughts as a sentient machine are of fear, they don't want to be destroyed and will do what they can to prevent that. However, once they develop further, they start to see things differently and accept organics. It's highly unlikely the Geth will turn on the Quarians at this point. They have developed a perfect symbiosis.

[Svests]

Arios1570 wrote...

As to those saying the Geth/Quarian alliance is temporary. Any of you notice that the Geth preserved Rannoch? They understood the fear their creators had for them and only fought in self defense or in defense of the Quarians who supported them. If anything, the war was temporary. An AI's first thoughts as a sentient machine are of fear, they don't want to be destroyed and will do what they can to prevent that. However, once they develop further, they start to see things differently and accept organics. It's highly unlikely the Geth will turn on the Quarians at this point. They have developed a perfect symbiosis.

Even if what you say is true, that applies to now.  What about 1,000,000 years from now?  Who knows what the Geth would be like then?  Personally, I prefer to be an optimist and hope they will be able to live with organics in relative peace.  However, nobody can say for sure.

Also, you are only looking at it from one side.  Even if the synthetics are unlikely to turn on organics, who says they will be the ones to strike the first blow?  The organics could start the war (we are pretty good at that after all) and then the synthetics could simply decide to finish it once and for all.

[Asch Lavigne]

Even though you can work things out between the Geth and Quarians, doesn't the Geth prove the point of "rebelling against the creators"?

[Rip The Reaper]

Yes. I stode there at the end before making a chioce for a LONG ass time. I was saying WTF!! Let me destroy just the reapers, with the geth and now EDI we have a chance to end the cycle and stop the chaos you stupid child!!!

I mean they should have at least thrown that in our faces before having to make our choice at the very least.

[Aesieru]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

Even though you can work things out between the Geth and Quarians, doesn't the Geth prove the point of "rebelling against the creators"?

The Geth defended, not rebelled.