52 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

 The Crucible, and the Catalyst, are NOT Deus Ex Machinas.

People really, REALLY need to stop using that word, because it's clear you don't know what it means.
The term "Deus Ex Machina" came from Greek plays and tragedies where, usually at the very end of the performance, one of the gods would literally come from off-stage, wrap up ALL the remaining plot points and solves everyone's problems, before disappearing and ending the play.

Neither the Crucible nor the Catalyst fit this definition.  The Crucible is introduced at the very beginning and built upon, as is the Catalyst.  That the Catalyst isn't what people thought it was is irrelevant.  The only way for the Crucible to become a DEM is for it to have never been in the game at all, and it suddenly pops in out of nowhere in the last five minutes and fixes everything.

Which it clearly doesn't.

[Militarized]

It's still a horrible, weaksauce last minute plot device from, I can only assume lazy writing and no thought.

[Voods07]

Thanks for clearing up what a very small percentage of posters on the BSN believe.

[ialsoagree]

I think people feel this way because the crucible suddenly becomes a solution in the final game, but prior to that you never hear anything of it.

I don't mind it so much, especially with the idea that it's a device that many cycles have been contributing too. That, to me, makes it a really interesting idea that I can accept into the storyline despite the fact that it is kind of a plot point to fix the galaxies problems that's dropped on us at the end of the series seemingly out of no where (unless there are references to it in 1 or 2? In the 200+ hours of play I have with those 2, I don't recall ever hearing anything of it).

[matthius299]

I think people are referring to Deus Ex Human Revolution. In that game's ending you have three choices and all of them have possible negative consequences. It worked well in that game, in Mass Effect not so much.

[Rhayth]

No the Crucible and Catalyst aren't Dues Ex... but the 3 decisions in the "perfect" ending scenario are.

[nitefyre410]

you right its not a Deus Ex Machina but it is Diablos Ex Machina - which is worst by the way.

[Arokel]

How is it not a deus ex machina? I'm not being rude I am genuinely curious.

[raeting]

Arokel wrote...

How is it not a deus ex machina? I'm not being rude I am genuinely curious.

From wikipedia: Dues ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

The crucible and catalyst were neither contrived nor unexpected. You spent the game building the crucible, and searching for the catalyst. So their intervention as a superweapon should be something the player is prepared for.

The source of the confusion, I think, is that the catalyst / AI child seems god-like. Uncaring for the plight of the organics, and unwilling to hear much from Shepard. Also, you are given three choices to fix the galaxy, instantly. The choice is, at least as presented, as if given by the good graces of the catalyst. So it feels less like you won, and more like you proved yourself to a singlar being whom helps you out of pity. It is difficult to see it otherwise. Yes, the crucible gave the AI more options -- before that it felt its only choice was to continue the cycle. But, why it asks Shepard for input is left a mystery.

Still, by the mere fact that your character was working to resolving the Reaper invasion by this method, it isn't Deus ex Machina. More like, if we are going to talk about Greeks, a mortal climbing mount Olympus and gaining the aid of the gods.

In the context of ME3 a Dues ex Machina ending would be more like: in the final moments of the battle, after Shepard gets blasted by a reaper, an anti-reaper fleet pours out of darkspace and kills all the reapers.

Whether or not the ending is a Dues ex Machina is moot, really, though. That doesn't have any bearing on its merit as an ending to ME3.

[Anthadlas]

raeting wrote...

Arokel wrote...

How is it not a deus ex machina? I'm not being rude I am genuinely curious.

From wikipedia: Dues ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

The crucible and catalyst were neither contrived nor unexpected.

Yes they were, The unsolvable problem of the Reapers is suddenly solved by the discovery of the Crucible on Mars when it had never been mentioned or even hinted at in any other Mass Effect media.
I would say that is pretty unexpected

Modifié par Wraith 02, 09 mars 2012 - 07:02 .

[SomeBug]

RiouHotaru wrote...

 The Crucible, and the Catalyst, are NOT Deus Ex Machinas.

People really, REALLY need to stop using that word, because it's clear you don't know what it means.
The term "Deus Ex Machina" came from Greek plays and tragedies where, usually at the very end of the performance, one of the gods would literally come from off-stage, wrap up ALL the remaining plot points and solves everyone's problems, before disappearing and ending the play.

Neither the Crucible nor the Catalyst fit this definition.  The Crucible is introduced at the very beginning and built upon, as is the Catalyst.  That the Catalyst isn't what people thought it was is irrelevant.  The only way for the Crucible to become a DEM is for it to have never been in the game at all, and it suddenly pops in out of nowhere in the last five minutes and fixes everything.

Which it clearly doesn't.

You are so wrong.

The existence of the Crucible is not a Deux Ex Machina. But the function of the Crucible is.

It is not telegraphed at all throughout the game, kept ambiguous at all times. It also does not fit in with the rest of the fiction. It is a radical departure of tone and substance.

In almost all sense of the phrase, the end of ME3 is exactly a Deus Ex Machina. In a literal sense too because a God does come from the Machine.

[nitefyre410]

Arokel wrote...

How is it not a deus ex machina? I'm not being rude I am genuinely curious.

 

its not  the opposite of a Diablos Ex Machina   

http://tvtropes.org/...abolusExMachina 
  

quoted form the web site.. 

"Finally, that the Diabolus ex Machina, when used to make a Downer Ending, is a very common Pet Peeve Trope, even more so than Deus ex Machina being used for a Happy Ending. "

[SandTrout]

SomeBug wrote...

You are so wrong.

The existence of the Crucible is not a Deux Ex Machina. But the function of the Crucible is.

It is not telegraphed at all throughout the game, kept ambiguous at all times. It also does not fit in with the rest of the fiction. It is a radical departure of tone and substance.

In almost all sense of the phrase, the end of ME3 is exactly a Deus Ex Machina. In a literal sense too because a God does come from the Machine.

I agree here.

The Cruible isn't a deus ex machina in itself, it's more of a mcguffin.

The Catylist, however, along with the Cruible's function, are clearly Diabolos Ex Machina.

[Rhayth]

Ok I understand what you're on about now. When I personally...and i'm sure others...reference Dues Ex they don't mean what you're thinking. The endings are very similar to most recently released Dues Ex game in the selections presented are very similar to one another.

[BaronScrewtape]

Have you ever played Deus Ex all the way through?
Is it not the exact same ending, but with the architect from The Matrix putting in an appearance as the little kid?

[raeting]

Arokel wrote...

Yes they were, The unsolvable problem of the Reapers is suddenly solved by the discovery of the Crucible on Mars when it had never been mentioned or even hinted at in any other Mass Effect media.
I would say that is pretty unexpected

Not so much. Part of the implication of Deus ex Machina is that everyone is losing right now. You are in the middle of a battle that is going very badly. You are being chased by a giant something that is going to win. You are in the clutches of another god that's about to deal the final blow. So on and so forth.

Then, while in the pit of despair, with zero hope, and usually near the end of the play. Pow! Zeus jumps in, reveals the main character is one of his billion sons, and saves his life.

You could argue the crucible is a deus ex machine if it erupted out of mar's surface near the end of the game and connected to the citadel in some ancient trap. That's completely unexpected, and at the right moment.

However, to find the method to victory so early in the game is setting up the plot, and giving you something to work towards. The mere fact that you must build the crucible over the course of weeks/months also precludes it from being so.

Deus ex Machina is being saved just in the knick of time by a god-like being, device, or ability that was never hinted at before.

Modifié par raeting, 09 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[girres42]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I don't mind the existence of the Crucible and frankly I was expecting something like this.

I'm with you. You could see this coming miles away right? I don't know if there is a name for this.. I am not as well read as some of you guys but in sci-fi when there is an "undefeatable" enemy they always have to find some bullcrap way to get the "mother brain" like I, Robot or Independence Day. (I REALLY wish I could think of better examples!) You could tell that was coming since the first game. I really wouldn't consider it a Deus Ex Machina.

Hey... something just occured to me. Wasn't the end of The Stand a Deus Ex Machina? Literally?

[Luigitornado]

I feel like Deux Ex Machina is being thrown around because fans didn't like the ending and DEM is really kind of frowned upon as a modern story telling technique and therefore an easy insult.

[girres42]

It would be a Deus Ex Machina if the Crucible didn't work but Shepard just happened to trip over the power cord to the Reapers and unplugged them.

Modifié par girres42, 09 mars 2012 - 07:19 .

[ziloe]

When people refer to Deus Ex, I was sure they were referencing the parallel between choosing the three endings in that, and the three in this. At least I was.

[raeting]

Luigitornado wrote...

I feel like Deux Ex Machina is being thrown around because fans didn't like the ending and DEM is really kind of frowned upon as a modern story telling technique and therefore an easy insult.

Yeah, a bit.

Really doesn't matter. A good story can incorporate a Deus ex Machina, or a MacGuffin, or most any other plot device.

What really matters is if you like it, not what you can label it as. 

[Icesong]

girres42 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I don't mind the existence of the Crucible and frankly I was expecting something like this.

I'm with you. You could see this coming miles away right? I don't know if there is a name for this.. I am not as well read as some of you guys but in sci-fi when there is an "undefeatable" enemy they always have to find some bullcrap way to get the "mother brain" like I, Robot or Independence Day. (I REALLY wish I could think of better examples!) You could tell that was coming since the first game. I really wouldn't consider it a Deus Ex Machina.

Hey... something just occured to me. Wasn't the end of The Stand a Deus Ex Machina? Literally?

http://tvtropes.org/.../MasterComputer

[humes spork]

raeting wrote...

Not so much. Part of the implication of Deus ex Machina is that everyone is losing right now. You are in the middle of a battle that is going very badly. You are being chased by a giant something that is going to win. You are in the clutches of another god that's about to deal the final blow. So on and so forth.

Dude, Harbinger. It shot a stream of molten metal ejected at relativistic speeds that cuts dreadnoughts right in two at Shepard's face. You even get close to that damn deathbeam in normal gameplay and it's instant critical mission failure, forget the direct hit Shepard ate running for the "Conduit". Shepard not only survives that but does so with black sh*t all over his/her armor, cuts and bruises, a little woozy, and a limp.

God damn seriously. The goalposts here are so far out Liara found them next to the Crucible schematics.