182 réponses à ce sujet

[coldlogic82]

This is now the official post that explains to people how you can both understand an ending and not like an ending.

Look, I understand the ending. I understand the cycle, I understand the geth, I understand the fleet, I understand the reapers, I understand the "message." However, this does not mean I like it, or think it is appropriate. Even if I was absolutely reeling at how deep and amazing the ending was, I could still not like it. I understand calculus. I made an A in calculus. If someone needed me to expalin calculus to them, I could do it. I understand that calculus is a mathematical representation of applied physics in the universe. I think physics are amazing, and the implications of some calculus equations are deep, marvelous, and awe inspiring. I STILL HATE CALCULUS. Also I took Calculus a long time ago, and no, I'm not an emo teenager posting. This example just happens to work for me.

It's not a matter of "I don't like sad endings." I'm a fan of the horror genre, H. P. Lovecraft in particular. His stories do not have happy endings, and I love them. I love Russian literature. Have you ever read Crime and Punishment? I love that book. I loved the ending. I think Old Yeller is a good movie, and that is NOT a happy ending. I'm okay with sad endings. Just because an ending is sad doesn't mean I won't like it. However, I can think a certain type of sad ending is inappropriate to a story. I can think a happy ending is stupid and cheap. I can think a happy ending is appropriate to a story. Just because the ending isn't happy doesn't mean I will be, and just because someone is so goth they s**t bats does not mean I will think they are deep. Story structure, plot elements, plot devices, and other things on which we can objectively rate the merit of narrative are independent of whether an ending is one that has been "gotten." Hell, you can have a deep, though provoking ending, but if it doesn't make sense in an objective narrative case, there are people who aren't going to like it.

Finally-
AND THIS IS THE REALLY IMPORTANT PART

Two people can look at the same thing and have the same level of understanding and have completely different emotional reactions. Emotions are personal responses based on external stimuli in conjunction with how one interprets those stimuli in both past and present context. How we handle emotions is one thing, but the basic emotional reaction to anything isn't "wrong." An emotion can be inappropriate to a situation because the emoter doesn't fully understand the present context, but that doesn't invalidate the emotion.

Post note on intelligence:
Yeah, I do think most people are stupid. However, I have lots of smart friends that didn't like Crime and Punishment. I didn't like Space Odyssey. They aren't stupid, I'm not stupid. Well, I may be stupid, but no one really has enough information about me to make that call on these forums beyond the content of my posts, but "you're stupid" is never a good argument, because even if I was stupid, I could still, by some miracle, fully understand a deep intellectual ending. Stupid people are not wrong about everything all the time. So, I'm pretty sure a lot of smart people didn't like the ending. But even if everyone who didn't like the ending IS stupid, they could still understand the ending and have better objective grounds on which to support their dislike.

[Aesieru]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

Patriota125 wrote...

Why are the endings great? Because they're REALISTIC. Don't use the word "pretentious" if you don't know what it means.

Why are they realistic? Because civilization is facing an enemy that has been around for millions of years. How the FVCK do youe xpect to beat an enemy like that¿

Your gib, I like its cut.

You don't want to side with Patriot, he has a horrid reputation on this forum and insults people to no ends.

A few possibly logical points doesn't nullify his idiocy.

[Nekroso22]

Patriota125 wrote...

Why are the endings great? Because they're REALISTIC. Don't use the word "pretentious" if you don't know what it means.

Don't worry, I know what "pretentious" means.

Dark =/= Realistic.

How the FVCK do youe xpect to beat an enemy like that?

Wasn't that the plot of, you know, the entire Mass Effect series?

[DariusST]

Luigitornado wrote...

DariusST wrote...

The main fault of the ME 3 endings, I think, is there is no closure

They are almost all virtually identical, and don't show the ultimate effect of your choices. The whole draw about Mass Effect was that the story could be tailored to your choices, and then Bioware gave us 3 endings that, firstly, you get no matter whether you are paragon, renegade, or middle path sheppard, dont show the consequences of your choices post-finishing off the reapers, all have essentially the same consequences( Mass relays destroyed, no reapers, normandy crashlanding, stargazer talking about the sheppard)

This is why people are angry, it doesn't matter whehter the endings make sense, there is no catharsis here. Alot of people, especially me, wanted a happy heroic ending. I spent 30 hours amassing this huge fleet, so that I could come in, kick some reaper ass, and then go have them blue children with Liara. Bioware is not stupid, that SHOULD have been the logical PAragon Choice, just like Humanity running **** with the renegade choice. They instead gave us these ridiculous endings for, what?

It just stinks of laziness

I'm kind of tired of "laziness" being thrown around. I would think the term "out-of-touch" would be more of what you are implying.

There is no doubt Bioware worked hard on this game.

I respectfully disagree. The Laziness comes through in pretty much the entire game. It's shorter then the other Mass Effects, for one, atleast a good 5 hours less in length, they basically took out all the middle ground options you had in Mass Effect 1 and 2, Even the interaction with your squad mates, with the conversations you were able to have with them, throught the first 2 games, is much less in this game. Much of the time, you characters have one or two things to say about whatever mission you were in, just like the DLC chars Zaeed and Kasumi in Mass Effect 2, only ME 3 chars had little extra to say on the 2 occasions you get to have branching convos, and thenm get their loyalty ability. To me, it feels like there is less overall interaction with you squadmates and npc's then in previous games.

You only have one trade hub, the Citadel, whereas in Mass Effect 1 and 2, there were multiple trade hubs, half of the missions were quick introductions to the multiplayer maps, which I think is what caused this overall lessening of quality Mass Effect 3 has.(the addition of MP) The horrible endings were just the culimination.

The things, IMO, Bioware got right in this iteration, is the flow of combat, the graphics and the addition of more RPG elements(more guns, armors, mods, and branching ability paths)

It's just a shame. had Bioware kept the Single player spirit of this game and not worried about Multiplayer, since the fanbase, despite how fun it is(because the MP REALLY is fun), really didn't care for the Multiplayer to begin with, had Bioware focused on only the singleplayer portion, this would not have happened.

[QuirkyGroundhog]

coldlogic82 wrote...

This is now the official post that explains to people how you can both understand an ending and not like an ending.

Look, I understand the ending. I understand the cycle, I understand the geth, I understand the fleet, I understand the reapers, I understand the "message." However, this does not mean I like it, or think it is appropriate. Even if I was absolutely reeling at how deep and amazing the ending was, I could still not like it. I understand calculus. I made an A in calculus. If someone needed me to expalin calculus to them, I could do it. I understand that calculus is a mathematical representation of applied physics in the universe. I think physics are amazing, and the implications of some calculus equations are deep, marvelous, and awe inspiring. I STILL HATE CALCULUS. Also I took Calculus a long time ago, and no, I'm not an emo teenager posting. This example just happens to work for me.

It's not a matter of "I don't like sad endings." I'm a fan of the horror genre, H. P. Lovecraft in particular. His stories do not have happy endings, and I love them. I love Russian literature. Have you ever read Crime and Punishment? I love that book. I loved the ending. I think Old Yeller is a good movie, and that is NOT a happy ending. I'm okay with sad endings. Just because an ending is sad doesn't mean I won't like it. However, I can think a certain type of sad ending is inappropriate to a story. I can think a happy ending is stupid and cheap. I can think a happy ending is appropriate to a story. Just because the ending isn't happy doesn't mean I will be, and just because someone is so goth they s**t bats does not mean I will think they are deep. Story structure, plot elements, plot devices, and other things on which we can objectively rate the merit of narrative are independent of whether an ending is one that has been "gotten." Hell, you can have a deep, though provoking ending, but if it doesn't make sense in an objective narrative case, there are people who aren't going to like it.

Finally-
AND THIS IS THE REALLY IMPORTANT PART

Two people can look at the same thing and have the same level of understanding and have completely different emotional reactions. Emotions are personal responses based on external stimuli in conjunction with how one interprets those stimuli in both past and present context. How we handle emotions is one thing, but the basic emotional reaction to anything isn't "wrong." An emotion can be inappropriate to a situation because the emoter doesn't fully understand the present context, but that doesn't invalidate the emotion.

Post note on intelligence:
Yeah, I do think most people are stupid. However, I have lots of smart friends that didn't like Crime and Punishment. I didn't like Space Odyssey. They aren't stupid, I'm not stupid. Well, I may be stupid, but no one really has enough information about me to make that call on these forums beyond the content of my posts, but "you're stupid" is never a good argument, because even if I was stupid, I could still, by some miracle, fully understand a deep intellectual ending. Stupid people are not wrong about everything all the time. So, I'm pretty sure a lot of smart people didn't like the ending. But even if everyone who didn't like the ending IS stupid, they could still understand the ending and have better objective grounds on which to support their dislike.

As I said later in the post, the title is poorly worded. I wanted it to be less, 'If you don't like it you don't get it' and more, 'Here's another way to take a look at it'

[Bellendaine]

coldlogic82 wrote...

This is now the official post that explains to people how you can both understand an ending and not like an ending.

Look, I understand the ending. I understand the cycle, I understand the geth, I understand the fleet, I understand the reapers, I understand the "message." However, this does not mean I like it, or think it is appropriate. Even if I was absolutely reeling at how deep and amazing the ending was, I could still not like it. I understand calculus. I made an A in calculus. If someone needed me to expalin calculus to them, I could do it. I understand that calculus is a mathematical representation of applied physics in the universe. I think physics are amazing, and the implications of some calculus equations are deep, marvelous, and awe inspiring. I STILL HATE CALCULUS. Also I took Calculus a long time ago, and no, I'm not an emo teenager posting. This example just happens to work for me.

It's not a matter of "I don't like sad endings." I'm a fan of the horror genre, H. P. Lovecraft in particular. His stories do not have happy endings, and I love them. I love Russian literature. Have you ever read Crime and Punishment? I love that book. I loved the ending. I think Old Yeller is a good movie, and that is NOT a happy ending. I'm okay with sad endings. Just because an ending is sad doesn't mean I won't like it. However, I can think a certain type of sad ending is inappropriate to a story. I can think a happy ending is stupid and cheap. I can think a happy ending is appropriate to a story. Just because the ending isn't happy doesn't mean I will be, and just because someone is so goth they s**t bats does not mean I will think they are deep. Story structure, plot elements, plot devices, and other things on which we can objectively rate the merit of narrative are independent of whether an ending is one that has been "gotten." Hell, you can have a deep, though provoking ending, but if it doesn't make sense in an objective narrative case, there are people who aren't going to like it.

Finally-
AND THIS IS THE REALLY IMPORTANT PART

Two people can look at the same thing and have the same level of understanding and have completely different emotional reactions. Emotions are personal responses based on external stimuli in conjunction with how one interprets those stimuli in both past and present context. How we handle emotions is one thing, but the basic emotional reaction to anything isn't "wrong." An emotion can be inappropriate to a situation because the emoter doesn't fully understand the present context, but that doesn't invalidate the emotion.

Post note on intelligence:
Yeah, I do think most people are stupid. However, I have lots of smart friends that didn't like Crime and Punishment. I didn't like Space Odyssey. They aren't stupid, I'm not stupid. Well, I may be stupid, but no one really has enough information about me to make that call on these forums beyond the content of my posts, but "you're stupid" is never a good argument, because even if I was stupid, I could still, by some miracle, fully understand a deep intellectual ending. Stupid people are not wrong about everything all the time. So, I'm pretty sure a lot of smart people didn't like the ending. But even if everyone who didn't like the ending IS stupid, they could still understand the ending and have better objective grounds on which to support their dislike.

I'm a guy, and I'm guessing you are, too, but ... will you marry me?!  I love this post!  

[J5550123]

Bioware seems to be closing all threads where people are upset about the ending, yet threads like this that praise the ending to no end keep growing and don't get locked. I wonder if Bioware is trying to hide the complaints. Hmm...

[Zulmoka531]

J5550123 wrote...

Bioware seems to be closing all threads where people are upset about the ending, yet threads like this that praise the ending to no end keep growing and don't get locked. I wonder if Bioware is trying to hide the complaints. Hmm...

Well, when you have "official" critics kissing your ass, and fan reviews pointing out inconsistencies....

[SLonergan]

And now I'm going to paint you a picture of the only possible "future" for all three of these endings.

Humanity is safe, but Earth is in ruins. There are also massive fleets from all around the galaxy in orbit above Earth, and they no longer have anywhere else that they can go. Everyone has to live on Earth now. Earth's limited resources are depleted in record time, and a racism driven war erupts on the surface of the planet. Humans hate aliens for draining their planet, aliens hate humans for cutting them off from their homes. Slowly but surely, everyone dies. Joker and company rot on an unidentified planet, EDI watches everyone she loves die.

The End. Congratulations on Victory!

[Aesieru]

SLonergan wrote...

And now I'm going to paint you a picture of the only possible "future" for all three of these endings.

Humanity is safe, but Earth is in ruins. There are also massive fleets from all around the galaxy in orbit above Earth, and they no longer have anywhere else that they can go. Everyone has to live on Earth now. Earth's limited resources are depleted in record time, and a racism driven war erupts on the surface of the planet. Humans hate aliens for draining their planet, aliens hate humans for cutting them off from their homes. Slowly but surely, everyone dies. Joker and company rot on an unidentified planet, EDI watches everyone she loves die.

The End. Congratulations on Victory!

Well ships can still use FTL and stasis chambers aboard them and distress beacons still exist, but this time Reapers don't come to kill everything 50k years from now.

[Qutayba]

I think one of the central problems is the unavoidable destruction of the relays, which maybe works "lore-wise" with the fact that they are Reaper tech designed to control the course of galactic evolution. However, plot, theme, and closure-wise, their destruction really messes things up. I'd agree that the geth and genophage plots end wonderfully, but the destruction of the relays renders those outcomes, as well as the unification of the galaxy under a single cause, moot. Everyone's isolated from one another no matter the ending. I think this makes sense for one of the endings, but you're forced into this outcome no matter what.

I don't get the impression the writers didn't think about the ending. They did. But they only thought about it on the galactic/cosmic scale.

[Tiberius Gracchus]

 I get what you are saying, after some thinking and after reading your post, I think that the ending wasn't horrible. It was shocking, and I was seriously off put by it before I had time to think. I feel as though the whole series and especially ME3 in particular was about plot twist after plot twist. Which was incredibly engrossing and satisfying. The ending is good, I love how we end on a philosophical note, and we get existential answers to materialistic questions.

My main gripes about the ending. After you solve the problem with the Quarians and the Geth, it seems like they rushed through the last half. I really would have liked to see more of dealing with Cerberus and more Prothean stories.

I also feel weird about how awkwardly the Illusive Man just appears and it would have been really cool to explore more of what the reapers where doing with the citidel.

Those are minor problems, but the biggest concern for me was that with the ending provided I was thrown for a loop, and depending on the content they continue to deliver I may learn to like the ending more. I felt that it was going to end more like ME1 and ME2, with a victory for the whole galaxy and Shepard being posterboy for the galaxy. But after some though I understand that ME3 is incredibly more dark and the hope only comes at the end as compared to how ME1 played out. The biggest shock I got was the fact that what was at the core of the universe (the characters, societies, relationships, missions, story, etc...) was the reliance on Mass Relay technology, I understand why Bioware did what they did and it was really awesome. Although on the flip side as of right now it feels like that universe that ive come to love has been altered in such a way that how I feel will be dependant on the new content (dlc or other mass effect games) to come. I am really looking forward to how the galaxy recovers from the reaper invasion and what exactly happens to Shepard.

The biggest question I have right now is: How can any enemy be worse than the reapers?
Bioware, you gave yourself a steep hill to climb over

I really loved the game, i love the twists, I actually felt my heart strings being plucked by what happens in this game, and I love the darker tone, and new inventiveness in the story. How I feel about the ending has yet to be decided. But seriously, Thank you Bioware.

Also, Im just a fan, I have no right to dictate or ask for more, how I feel about it doesnt really matter because with a story like mass effect there will always be a market... and fanboys...

[Neuf117]

I'm curious if the New Game + ending is better. Wasn't that was BW said that their was at least 6 possible endings as well as a special New Game + ending?

[Tony208]

Patriota125 wrote...

Why are the endings great? Because they're REALISTIC. Don't use the word "pretentious" if you don't know what it means.

Why are they realistic? Because civilization is facing an enemy that has been around for millions of years. How the FVCK do youe xpect to beat an enemy like that¿

Yes, the game has been realistic "cough" Aliens and tech

[Dragoni89]

Seriously at this point, I'm pretty sure everyone have in their minds how Mass Effect 3 should have ended. Mass effect has been with us for 5 years. And we played it and loved it. Its not something new and alien to us. But to have 3 endings so far off from the endings people imagined based on ME1 and ME2 is no good. Based on the fan reactions its prove enough, we don't want Biowares ending and there is no need to justify it. The fans want it changed period.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 09 mars 2012 - 09:06 .

[Faraborne]

coldlogic82 wrote...

This is now the official post that explains to people how you can both understand an ending and not like an ending.

Look, I understand the ending. I understand the cycle, I understand the geth, I understand the fleet, I understand the reapers, I understand the "message." However, this does not mean I like it, or think it is appropriate. Even if I was absolutely reeling at how deep and amazing the ending was, I could still not like it. I understand calculus. I made an A in calculus. If someone needed me to expalin calculus to them, I could do it. I understand that calculus is a mathematical representation of applied physics in the universe. I think physics are amazing, and the implications of some calculus equations are deep, marvelous, and awe inspiring. I STILL HATE CALCULUS. Also I took Calculus a long time ago, and no, I'm not an emo teenager posting. This example just happens to work for me.

It's not a matter of "I don't like sad endings." I'm a fan of the horror genre, H. P. Lovecraft in particular. His stories do not have happy endings, and I love them. I love Russian literature. Have you ever read Crime and Punishment? I love that book. I loved the ending. I think Old Yeller is a good movie, and that is NOT a happy ending. I'm okay with sad endings. Just because an ending is sad doesn't mean I won't like it. However, I can think a certain type of sad ending is inappropriate to a story. I can think a happy ending is stupid and cheap. I can think a happy ending is appropriate to a story. Just because the ending isn't happy doesn't mean I will be, and just because someone is so goth they s**t bats does not mean I will think they are deep. Story structure, plot elements, plot devices, and other things on which we can objectively rate the merit of narrative are independent of whether an ending is one that has been "gotten." Hell, you can have a deep, though provoking ending, but if it doesn't make sense in an objective narrative case, there are people who aren't going to like it.

Finally-
AND THIS IS THE REALLY IMPORTANT PART

Two people can look at the same thing and have the same level of understanding and have completely different emotional reactions. Emotions are personal responses based on external stimuli in conjunction with how one interprets those stimuli in both past and present context. How we handle emotions is one thing, but the basic emotional reaction to anything isn't "wrong." An emotion can be inappropriate to a situation because the emoter doesn't fully understand the present context, but that doesn't invalidate the emotion.

Post note on intelligence:
Yeah, I do think most people are stupid. However, I have lots of smart friends that didn't like Crime and Punishment. I didn't like Space Odyssey. They aren't stupid, I'm not stupid. Well, I may be stupid, but no one really has enough information about me to make that call on these forums beyond the content of my posts, but "you're stupid" is never a good argument, because even if I was stupid, I could still, by some miracle, fully understand a deep intellectual ending. Stupid people are not wrong about everything all the time. So, I'm pretty sure a lot of smart people didn't like the ending. But even if everyone who didn't like the ending IS stupid, they could still understand the ending and have better objective grounds on which to support their dislike.

Very well put!  Besides being a huge fan of Russian Literature, my favorite book of all time is "The Brothers Karamazov"--definitely not a happy ending.  The problem with ME3's ending is that it was out of place, inconsistent, forced, etc I can go on and on but I've already posted so many times reitrating the same thing over and over.

[Faraborne]

Zulmoka531 wrote...

J5550123 wrote...

Bioware seems to be closing all threads where people are upset about the ending, yet threads like this that praise the ending to no end keep growing and don't get locked. I wonder if Bioware is trying to hide the complaints. Hmm...

Well, when you have "official" critics kissing your ass, and fan reviews pointing out inconsistencies....

I have been trying so hard to be gracious and hopeful but this certainly makes you think.  Bioware is really pushing me to the limit as a customer.  Let me just say that if Bioware was a restaurant, I'd never return.

[valkyriet86]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

spychi wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

spychi wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...



Well, the easiest answer to this is
that the Protheans built a Relay, so we're probably not TOO far
behind. But beyond that, the answer is in the conversation between
Shepard and the Catalyst. I'll paraphrase, but Shepard basically
says, “We don't want to be preserved, we want a future.”

no they didn't make the relays

They built the Conduit, so yes, they built a relay.

But the conduit was a small relay based of what they learned about the big ones, so its based on reaper tech in which case they did not invented them

Yeah, yeah, the Reapers built the relays. I'm just saying that the destruction of the Relay network is bad, but it's not the end of the world. The Protheans built a relay, we can too. Galactic civilization will rebuild eventually, some day. We have a future.

Protheans didn't build a relay, and they didn't build the conduit.  Javik ( the Prothean you can recruit in the From Ashes DLC) actually states that his people never were able to complete the conduit, and that every civilization that the Reapers have harvest over the ages contributed something ot it.  So, the Protheans only added one peice to it before the civilzations of the current cycle finalized it.

[NYG1991]

Blowing up the relays renders the battles for each races homeworld pointless. The blast wave destroys that system. I don't get how they can say earth was saved

[Hellknites]

I know the reason I'm pissed off is because I didn't get a happy ending. You could go on about how Mass Effect is supposed to be a dark sci-fi, but that's bull. Look at ME2! That was supposed to be the darkest chapter in the series, its 'Empire Strikes Back', and it gave you the ability to save nearly everybody if you did things right and put in the effort. In this game, its all for naught. It forces a sad and frankly depressing (for me anyway) end to characters who I have become invested in over the course of the series. This is an RPG which values player choice. There should be at least one cheesy ending where Shep and his companions live, he settles down with his LI and whatever. But it seems like the game has just given us the 'bad' ending of a game, with three variations leaning towards a paragon, neutral and renegade version of this bad ending.

For me, the grim end to this series has just kind of ruined it for me. I don't know about ME and ME2, but I find it very hard to be able to sit down and play ME3 now. Its just not fun, knowing that whatever I do in the game, a grizzly fate awaits.

An ideal ending allow players to start and play a second playthrough knowing that there is at least one pleasant end to Shepard and his companions. Because at the moment, its just not fun to play anymore.

Modifié par Hellknites, 09 mars 2012 - 09:15 .

[Failbox]

The issue I'm having is how all 3 endings were ideally the same cinematic with recolored explosions. They all result in Shepard's death and the Mass Relays being destroyed. If you have multiple endings there should be some variety. Also an epilogue would be nice.

[OblivionDawn]

Aesieru wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

Patriota125 wrote...

Why are the endings great? Because they're REALISTIC. Don't use the word "pretentious" if you don't know what it means.

Why are they realistic? Because civilization is facing an enemy that has been around for millions of years. How the FVCK do youe xpect to beat an enemy like that¿

Your gib, I like its cut.

You don't want to side with Patriot, he has a horrid reputation on this forum and insults people to no ends.

A few possibly logical points doesn't nullify his idiocy.

Except his points don't have any logic, lol.

[Parrk]

Guys, it isn't that they are not listening to our concerns...

We know from recent releases that during the initial few days after a release all the devs and support staffs have a very important assignment that cannot be ignored for anything so frivolous as worrying over our concerns.

Once they have all posted their assigned 15 fraudulent fan reviews on metacritic then they will turn to lesser concerns, like the reactions of fans to their work.



Also, even if some individuals are able to concoct fanboy rationalizations within their own minds that allow them to fund peace with the low quality of plot resolution choices, the fact will remain that the ending is completely underwhelming.  Not only are they not of acceptable quality, but even the crap that is included is horribly underwhelming.


If you played each ME through only once, they you have no fewer than 100 hours invested in this story.  That is like 50 movies.  How could they ever have dreamed that what was provided would be sufficient closure?

Modifié par Parrk, 09 mars 2012 - 09:22 .

[Mathias]

They say that the work of a genius is rarely understood by the general populace. But if this is the work of a genius, then the standards for being a genius has significantly fallen these past few years.

[zenoxis]

l

Modifié par zenoxis, 09 mars 2012 - 09:21 .